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dtownral
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Quote :
"Well, no. No, it isn't. That's why you used a different word"

i didn't use that word, that's what it's called:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

10/9/2018 1:30:53 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"I don't mind market socialists or people who aren't hardline Capitalists."

But I'm not a die-hard capitalist. I love worker owned businesses. They just need to buy them like anyone else. But I recognize why they choose not to: it is ill advised to tie up a large chunk of your savings in your own employer. Better to work one place and diversify elsewhere, so if your employer goes belly up, you have not lost everything.

10/10/2018 9:02:58 AM

adultswim
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"I recognize why they choose not to"


no dude it's because no one has the money to do that, and most business owners are not interested in selling to their workers. how do you constantly fuck this up?

10/10/2018 10:56:34 AM

LoneSnark
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An open stock company has no choice in who buys their stock. There is no "these shares cannot under any circumstances be sold to employees." And it is odd to believe a business owner would hate money so much he'd refuse a buy-out offer, just because it was his employees. I met a dude once whose sole lot in life was starting businesses, getting them running, then getting bored and selling them to his employees. So yea, they can. They can't afford Walmart or Apple, but a huge chunk of the economy is not sexy enough or profitable enough to have such sky high valuations.

10/10/2018 1:00:44 PM

dtownral
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dude has never met a poor person

10/10/2018 1:10:12 PM

Dentaldamn
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^ im not sure I understand the end game here. Providing corporate ownership to the workers does not eliminate poverty. Some companies succeed, others fail. A massive welfare state would still need to exist.

Unless the entire community owns all means of production and the negative impacts are offset by the good you will still have massive discrepancies in standard of living.

10/10/2018 1:22:41 PM

LoneSnark
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^^ I can only assume you're being purposefully dense. I say worker owned businesses are a thing, there could be more than there are but I see why there isn't, and you respond with an assault on my intelligence. Okay then.

^ I am curious there. Surely in a worker-owned economy firms must still be allowed to fail on their merits by some means and there must be a mechanism for creating new firms. Otherwise poorly run monopolies will inevitably result, to the detriment of society at large. Bad management and economic change is a thing society must have means of addressing.

[Edited on October 10, 2018 at 1:28 PM. Reason : .,.]

10/10/2018 1:24:13 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"^ im not sure I understand the end game here. Providing corporate ownership to the workers does not eliminate poverty. Some companies succeed, others fail. A massive welfare state would still need to exist.

Unless the entire community owns all means of production and the negative impacts are offset by the good you will still have massive discrepancies in standard of living."


This is why market socialism is a stepping stone and not true socialism. True socialism means the entire community owns the means of production and produces based on need, not profit motive.

10/10/2018 1:33:39 PM

Dentaldamn
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I don’t see that happening in any meaningful capacity.

To be clear, I mean a transition from the first step to the second.

[Edited on October 10, 2018 at 1:55 PM. Reason : !]

10/10/2018 1:54:07 PM

adultswim
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There's an absolute shitload of theory regarding that transition, but I haven't read much of it so I can't help you there. I's a lot harder to be a socialist than a libertarian, because you're expected to know all the answers to a complicated theoretical system.

And even if we never get there, we can get as close as possible.

10/10/2018 2:37:20 PM

LoneSnark
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If it is too theoretical for its boosters to bother understanding or even knowing the talking points about, what the hell hope does society at large have of learning it well enough to live under it?

How can you be in favor of an economic system you yourself claim to have no understanding of?

[Edited on October 10, 2018 at 3:20 PM. Reason : .,.]

10/10/2018 3:19:15 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"If it is too theoretical for its boosters to bother understanding or even knowing the talking points about, what the hell hope does society at large have of learning it well enough to live under it?"


The average person couldn't explain our current economy either.

Quote :
"How can you be in favor of an economic system you yourself claim to have no understanding of?"


Disingenuous representation of what I said.

10/10/2018 3:29:08 PM

JesusHChrist
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Capitalism's immense appeal to dumbass conservatives is it's ability to offer "supply and demand, bro" and "economics 101, man" and "let the markets decide" as incredibly simplistic answers that are vomited out every time they are asked to confront a societal ill.

10/10/2018 7:59:40 PM

LoneSnark
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Socialism's immense appeal to dumbasses is it's ability to offer "blame the rich, bro" and "the man's keeping us down, man" and "make the rick pay for it" and "get the government to do it" as incredibly simplistic answers that are vomited out every time they are asked to confront a societal ill.

[Edited on October 12, 2018 at 11:09 PM. Reason : .,.]

10/12/2018 11:09:18 PM

dtownral
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What did Rick ever do to you?

10/13/2018 12:25:22 AM

LoneSnark
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He abandoned me in this statist hell of a dimension just because I'm the evil Morty.

10/13/2018 10:51:47 AM

adultswim
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i love it

https://www.gazettetimes.com/opinion/letters/letter-despite-loss-council-candidate-triumphed/article_7fb9c2e3-c994-52ac-9742-6789b955ab1b.html

11/15/2018 8:57:46 PM

adultswim
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FYI there are a shitload of Howard Zinn lectures on Spotify.

11/27/2018 5:17:07 PM

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