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How do you feel about it? Is it a net positive?

Has it gone too far or not far enough?

Do you think it largely treats all offenses as the same?

Is it overly reliant on emotion and personal righteousness?

How did we get here? If your view of it is a net negative then how much blame can we shift to the social media/media companies at large who profit from it?

Is it "overly judgmental approach to activism that does little to bring about change?"

Why is it a tool almost only wielded by the left?

Am I going to get cancelled for asking these questions?

2/1/2020 12:03:41 PM

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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/opinion/obama-cancel-culture.html

2/1/2020 12:04:25 PM

dtownral
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Its not only wielded by the left, it's been a stable of the right playing victim for decades

2/1/2020 12:10:35 PM

Nighthawk
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Pretty fucked up locally. Al that runs Al's Burger Shack has been accused of sexually harassing some employees. Some signs and fliers went up around campus and Franklin Street, but as far as I'm aware no legal action or charges have been filed. A fulltime professor at UNC with a very similar name has had folks come in his office and accuse and threaten him. Dude definitely doesn't run any restaurants or even look like Al. People should make sure they have the right target before they attack somebody.

2/1/2020 2:25:35 PM

theDuke866
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Too far.

2/1/2020 3:31:24 PM

utowncha
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i would like some examples of right wing canceling anything

2/1/2020 3:53:25 PM

Cherokee
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Too far

2/1/2020 4:22:49 PM

moron
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^^
https://twitter.com/dailycaller/status/1223591952484110336?s=21

Also John McCain when he voted against trump

2/1/2020 4:25:52 PM

BJCaudill21
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James Gunn outrage was by conservatives I think

2/1/2020 4:32:36 PM

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^^ not being invited to speak is not cancelling someone

2/1/2020 4:51:25 PM

thegoodlife3
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Cancel Culture is extremely online and I can’t think of any specific examples of it going too far and actually ending someone’s career

2/1/2020 4:56:16 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"i would like some examples of right wing canceling anything"


Colin fucking Kaepernick???

I can't think of anyone that has suffered more penalties for less

[Edited on February 1, 2020 at 5:10 PM. Reason : christine blasey Ford? ]

2/1/2020 5:07:19 PM

Cherokee
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^^wat

2/1/2020 5:17:56 PM

dtownral
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right wing faux outrage cancelled al Franken, got the house to condemn ilhan omar, have gotten members of the media fired, for example marc lamont from CNN, have gotten academics fired for example university of alabama dean jamie riley, got Kaepernick blacklisted, numerous examples of universities disinviting people because republicans dont like them... it goes on and on

2/1/2020 5:24:05 PM

rwoody
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Which people have actually lost their jobs bc of speech after attacks from the left?

2/1/2020 5:27:22 PM

dtownral
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[Edited on February 1, 2020 at 5:31 PM. Reason : Misread]

2/1/2020 5:30:54 PM

Dentaldamn
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How about the cancelation of Jews in Europe by Christians for the last 1000 years?

Considering that we’ve stopped constantly murdering each other I’ll say the current cancel culture is fine.

2/1/2020 5:34:52 PM

Cherokee
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^^^https://www.vulture.com/2019/09/snl-shane-gillis-fired.html

2/1/2020 5:55:20 PM

Dentaldamn
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Getting fired from your job for being an asshole is not being canceled.

We live in “at will employment” states.

2/1/2020 5:56:49 PM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"i would like some examples of right wing canceling anything"



You've never heard the term RINO??? You've never seen the GOP base turn on any congressman that doesn't fellate Trump???

2/1/2020 7:09:22 PM

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Cancelling means career over. Not someone who loses their seat in Congress due to poor strategic political decisions.

2/1/2020 9:29:22 PM

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Quote :
"Which people have actually lost their jobs bc of speech after attacks from the left?"


Is that a joke?

2/1/2020 9:30:22 PM

TreeTwista10
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y'all are acting like a bunch of nappy headed hoes

2/1/2020 10:21:09 PM

LoneSnark
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This was an entertaining watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

Presumption of Guilt. Abstraction. Guilt by Association. The elements that make up Cancel Culture are all individually wrong and immoral.

2/1/2020 10:50:35 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
" https://www.vulture.com/2019/09/snl-shane-gillis-fired.htm"


dude still tours

2/1/2020 10:56:58 PM

rwoody
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"Is that a joke?"


No more then your dumb premise that the opposite is true. Gillis is the best example and he certainly didn't lose his career. Kap was out in the wilderness for years before the Nike contract. Blasey Ford had to go into hiding. Name some people instead of asking if it's a joke.

You'd be good on the NYT opinion page, putting up a premise without any attempt to back it in fact

2/1/2020 11:23:18 PM

theDuke866
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^^^^ hahaha

2/2/2020 12:58:42 AM

Cherokee
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Quote :
"Getting fired from your job for being an asshole is not being canceled.

We live in “at will employment” states."


Yes, in fact, it is.

2/2/2020 2:03:18 AM

Dentaldamn
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So when I get fired for tweeting my boss is a “low IQ fart head” it’s bc of cancel culture?

2/2/2020 11:09:19 AM

LoneSnark
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No. But if you get fired for tweeting something that you did not intend to be offensive but your boss decides was offensive despite you saying "I didn't think of it that way, I had no intention of offending anyone" then yea, that is a lot more like cancel culture.

2/2/2020 11:19:01 AM

Dentaldamn
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So are we for or against companies making their own hiring and firing decisions?

Perhaps we should set up an external tribunal to judge their hiring and firing decisions.

2/2/2020 1:18:00 PM

TreeTwista10
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seems that companies' firing decisions continue to become influenced more and more by public outcry

[Edited on February 2, 2020 at 2:52 PM. Reason : except for police departments. paid administrative leave for all.]

2/2/2020 2:51:58 PM

Dentaldamn
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Bc the police have an incredible union.

2/2/2020 4:15:28 PM

StTexan
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I want to read horosho’s thought on this

[Edited on February 2, 2020 at 6:10 PM. Reason : S]

2/2/2020 6:10:03 PM

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Quote :
"Name some people instead of asking if it's a joke."


I DO WHAT I WANT

2/2/2020 11:11:10 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"So are we for or against companies making their own hiring and firing decisions?

Perhaps we should set up an external tribunal to judge their hiring and firing decisions."

Not at all. Firing someone for no real reason is merely being an asshole, and it certainly shouldn't be a crime to be an asshole.

Of course, most cancel culture activities are not merely being assholes. Some of it is actually immoral to the point of being criminal in the form of defamation and slander.

For example. Many of the people hounding Disney over Twitter to fire James Gunn called him a pedophile, no qualifiers. This is outright libel, a crime, were it not a mob doing it and the usual mob defense of "you can't arrest all of us" in effect.

2/3/2020 12:16:56 AM

Dentaldamn
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Quote :
"Not at all. Firing someone for no real reason is merely being an asshole, and it certainly shouldn't be a crime to be an asshole."


Most people get fired for reasons that are not criminal. Being an asshole will get you fired. Your boss being an asshole will get you fired.

Quote :
"Of course, most cancel culture activities are not merely being assholes. Some of it is actually immoral to the point of being criminal in the form of defamation and slander.

For example. Many of the people hounding Disney over Twitter to fire James Gunn called him a pedophile, no qualifiers. This is outright libel, a crime, were it not a mob doing it and the usual mob defense of "you can't arrest all of us" in effect."


Current James Gunn is dealing with this:

James Gunn Is Getting Death Threats Over Rocket's Fate In Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2489472/james-gunn-is-getting-death-threats-over-rocket-fate-in-guardians-of-the-galaxy-vol-3

2/3/2020 1:06:25 AM

LoneSnark
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"Most people get fired for reasons that are not criminal. Being an asshole will get you fired. Your boss being an asshole will get you fired."

As things should be. But, as with James Gunn, having done something long ago that was both non-violent and non-intentionally harmful that you've apologized for makes you the opposite of an asshole.

2/3/2020 1:56:08 AM

Dentaldamn
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Yes he would not be an asshole. But the world we currently live in has platforms such as twitter that allow an amplification of opinions. If these opinions cause a company to reconsider a high profile employee that is how things have worked for 200+ years. The reasons and the medium have changed.

Now the guy is getting death threats for how a character arc ended??? People are also insane.

[Edited on February 3, 2020 at 8:04 AM. Reason : NOW]

2/3/2020 7:47:42 AM

GrumpyGOP
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As usual I think one big problem is that people don't agree on the definition of the term itself. Cabbage seems to think that losing an election is part of "cancel culture," which I think most people would agree is taking it to absurd lengths. Then again, I'm not even sure I'd extend the concept to Colin Kaepernick or Roseanne Barr, which ultimately seem like examples of people being fired for doing something that they knew, or should have known, would be immediately controversial. (For the record, I think Kaepernick is well within his rights, and his firing and subsequent blacklisting are shitty; they're just not what I would call "cancel culture. Roseanne Barr can die lonely and sad for all I care.)

To my mind, the slightly more novel types of "cancellation" that might warrant a new name like "cancel culture" are:

1) People getting "cancelled" because of something they said some time ago, particularly when the thing they said was (a) public, hinting that the sudden appearance of outrage is manufactured, and/or (b) something that was probably within the bounds of what was broadly considered acceptable at the time.
2) People getting "cancelled" over accusations that are unsubstantiated and in some cases demonstrably false, out of a desire to appease the mass of people who believe the accusation anyway.

I say that these things are only slightly more novel, because of course you can find examples throughout history. The Puritans permanently "cancelled" a bunch of witches over unsubstantiated allegations. McCarthyism and Red Panic ended plenty of careers on much the same basis.

---

Working from this perspective, "cancel culture" is pretty bad; in the first case, it creates an ex post facto law against certain types of speech, and it rarely gives opportunity for appeal or apology. In the second, it enables mob justice - milder than lynching, I guess, but that's not saying much.

Certainly it doesn't treat all offenses the same. Clearly we're willing to ignore accusations of domestic abuse by NFL players, but we're much quicker to react to accusations of shitty dating habits by Aziz Ansari. And then there's Donald Trump's entire career up to this point.

I don't know how to answer "Is it overly reliant on emotion;" I'm not bothered by emotions running high, I'm bothered by facts and good sense being ignored.

How did we get here? First, we've had a lot of big, sharp shifts in what's considered acceptable over the last 10-20 years, so there's lots of people working today who might have said/done something that was OK (or at least borderline) in 2003 but which might get you cancelled today. I'd argue that this change was more significant and abrupt than in comparable periods like the late 1960's/early 1970's. Second, this same period unquestionably left more of a "permanent record" of all the dumb things people said and did. Third, social media allowed outraged people to connect and amplify their anger. Fourth, the proliferation of online media has allowed the introduction of anonymous/unreliable sources that would normally have been stifled by journalistic standards.

"Overly judgmental?" Hard to say. I do think it's pretty unforgiving of apologies, but then again, we've seen some pretty shitty apologies. "Does little to bring about change?" Might be too early to say. I wish we'd do more to punish people who are fucking up right now, and less to punish people who tweeted something uncomfortable eight years ago. That would probably do more to effect change. But, hey, if it makes people afraid of saying shitty things, I guess that's something.

I don't think it's wielded only by the left. More effectively, maybe, since the young people who drive it are more likely to be on the left.

You won't get cancelled for this, but looking back at some of the things I've said on this site over the last 16+ years, I would. Likely many, many others would, too.

2/3/2020 8:15:44 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
" Cabbage seems to think that losing an election is part of "cancel culture,""



That is greatly overstating what my intended point was.

I'm looking at people like John McCain (who never even lost his Senate seat through an election, so no, that's not at all what I am saying) who had a large chunk of the GOP base turn against him simply because he didn't kiss Trump's ass. And then there were all these reports about how he turned traitor back in Vietnam, and other such bullshit.

Tell me: How is that not part of "Cancel Culture"?

2/3/2020 9:42:01 AM

aimorris
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Cancel culture is bringing up old stuff that was either accepted or ignored at the time again to try to get someone in trouble, fired, or to change the public perception of them somehow. McCain didn't say he hated Trump 20 years ago and then it was brought up again, it was him going against Trump in the present and the GOP turned against him because they had made their decision.

The other stuff about Vietnam just seems like misinformation stupidity.

2/3/2020 10:13:55 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"The other stuff about Vietnam just seems like misinformation stupidity"




It was a bit more malicious than that.

2/3/2020 10:37:29 AM

aimorris
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okay but usually when we talk about cancel culture -- you can argue whether or not the act was worth "cancelling" but in most cases there was some truth to it (this guy made some tweets, this guy did a bad interview, etc.). I mean, was McCain actually a traitor in Vietnam?

"Cancel culture" doesn't apply to people just making up random shit about you

2/3/2020 10:42:53 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Honestly I'd be inclined to exclude anything in the realm of electoral politics from cancel culture. People running for office have always known that stuff from their past could and would be used against them; it's the whole reason oppo research and vetting exist. Smearing political opponents is as old as electioneering. Smearing actors, athletes, etc. in the same way is a newer phenomenon (kind of).

But even if we include politicians, voters turning against McCain because they didn't like what he was doing is not cancel culture.

2/3/2020 10:47:39 AM

Cabbage
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^^I think it might be a grey area when people are just making random shit up about you specifically because you didn't kiss Trump's ass.

[Edited on February 3, 2020 at 10:49 AM. Reason : ^^]

2/3/2020 10:49:26 AM

1985
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Al franken i think was a victim of cancel culture

2/3/2020 3:15:12 PM

rjrumfel
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Jeanine Cummings looks like she might be the next victim.

2/3/2020 3:33:56 PM

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^^yup. literally from the left.

also i think just losing your job is enough to be considered cancelled. you don't have to lose your entire career.

2/3/2020 3:55:22 PM

dtownral
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It was from the right's fake outrage

2/3/2020 4:25:28 PM

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