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rjrumfel
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I looked and didn't see a thread specifically for freen college tuition, and debt forgiveness for those that have student loans.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/23/18714615/bernie-sanders-free-college-for-all-2020-student-loan-debt

From Bernie's plan

Quote :
"The Vermont senator will unveil the most ambitious higher education plan in the Democratic 2020 presidential primary so far on Monday. The proposal would make two- and four-year public and tribal colleges and universities tuition-free and debt-free, and erase the roughly $1.6 trillion in student loan debt currently owed in the US, paid for by a tax on Wall Street."


Quote :
"The proposal would cost $2.2 trillion over 10 years, which Sanders says would be paid for with his Wall Street tax. He proposed a Wall Street speculation tax in 2016, which would raise small levies on buying and selling stocks, bonds, and derivatives; many experts estimate it could raise hundreds of billions of dollars annually. Sanders’s office cited progressive economist Robert Pollin’s projection that the tax would bring in $2.4 trillion in revenues over 10 years."


Going further, it seems that his plan only covers tuition, and provides some relief for other expenses. But I worry that with his plan, the federal government will negotiate tuition rates with colleges and universities, and much like Medicare, they aren't going to be willing to pay what private individuals pay. Colleges and universities will probably stand to lose a good bit of money, which they will probably offset by raising housing and other costs. This is pure speculation but I don't see it being out of the realm of possibility.

Plus, for all of the folks that have student debt that they're making payments on, how would Bernie's plan pull out tuition from consolidated loans?

It sounds like Warren's plan is similar to Bernie's, except she adds a cap to debt-forgiveness for households making over 250k. Also, her plan is to pluck from the ultra-rich, rather than Wall Street, but I'm sure those are not mutually exclusive.

Thoughts? I switched majors several times and spent too long in college, and I did not spend money as wisely as I should have back then, therefore I still have some college debt. I wouldn't mind having that wiped, but I also don't mind the payments I make on it.

What about the folks that don't want to go to college? I'm sure these plans would include apprenticeships as well, but I don't know if I saw that explicitly called out.

2/17/2020 11:57:47 AM

LoneSnark
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You are exactly right. NCSU student fees are already several times what they used to be, they were jacked up because the state negotiated to keep tuition from increasing as much as the university wanted it to.

The issue is a lack of competition. Students will pay whatever the tuition is, so Universities are raising tuition fast. If the feds take over paying tuition, Universities will take that money and jack up fees, housing, books, and everything else because they know students will pay it.

This is quite simply a market failure, the causes of which are unclear to me. I know there are barriers to entry in the education industry, but I wouldn't have thought they were this serious. However it came to be, the feds throwing money at colleges isn't going to change the underlying market failure. Hopefully, as you say, federal money will come bound with laws against charging other ways. For example, ban student fees, require the price of books to be rolled into tuition, ban on-campus living requirements, all as a condition of receiving federal tuition dollars.

Of course, they could do all this right now, no need to pay for tuition. Just ban these things and impose tuition caps as a condition of federal student loan dollars. Another option is to just cap federal student loan outlays per semester. If students cannot raise the money to pay ever higher tuition, then colleges will stop raising tuition every year. And this is how you deal with market failures, regulation. You don't tax the poor to give money to the rich.

[Edited on February 17, 2020 at 12:31 PM. Reason : .,.]

2/17/2020 12:29:20 PM

moron
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Quote :
"The issue is a lack of competition. Students will pay whatever the tuition is, so Universities are raising tuition fast. If the feds take over paying tuition, Universities will take that money and jack up fees, housing, books, and everything else because they know students will pay it. "


This isn't true. Universities feel a huge amount of market pressure, including public universities. A good school doesn't just want people who can pay (like a typical business), they want the best students. They want students who will go on and do great things, and bring prestige back to the school, and who will contribute the most to society.

This does create an arms race of costs, where student centers and libraries and learning facilities have to have the best technology and architecture and design.

And considering that as the population grows, the number of students needing to be served needs to grow, which means more buildings, tearing down buildings and building bigger buildings, and buying more land, etc., you're always going to see a need for costs to increase.

There's a plateau when the technology matures and prices come down, and there's no need to invest in substantial upgrades, and we're sort of in that zone now where more money is being expended to grow capacity instead of upgrades.



tl;dr colleges have competition, but it's mostly for top students/faculty, costs are driven by the continuing need to accommodate more students as populations grow

2/17/2020 12:50:43 PM

dtownral
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Quote :
"What about the folks that don't want to go to college? I'm sure these plans would include apprenticeships as well, but I don't know if I saw that explicitly called out.

"


trade schools are explicitly called out in the very first bulletin point of his website:
https://berniesanders.com/issues/free-college-cancel-debt/

2/17/2020 2:11:34 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"The federal funding has restrictions: It cannot go to administrators’ salaries, any merit-based financial aid, or non-academic buildings like shiny new football stadiums."


I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt until I got here. Restrictions like these are idiotic. Money is fungible.

It's like people who insist on giving food to panhandling drug addicts, because "If I gave them money, they'd just use it to buy drugs." OK, well, now you've saved them from having to spend any of their money on food, freeing it up for them to spend...on drugs. University leadership is addicted to shiny new buildings, and they're damn sure addicted to salaries. They'll use the Federal money to pay for academics, expand some non-tuition revenue streams - we've already demonstrated that we'll eagerly pay a lot, they've got nothing to fear there - and use that money to buy football stadiums.

---

Buy-in would also be a big issue. The states that are least likely to participate in this program are the states in most dire need of higher education. They're also the states that have the least in the stock market, so it's no skin off their asses. When red states don't join, there's two possible outcomes, neither of which are good. Either their higher education situation gets worse in comparison to the rest of the country, exacerbating regional disparities and deepening a critical divide in this country. On the other hand, maybe they outperform the Sanders-plan schools, drawing in better students with "shiny new buildings" that they can buy without having to bother playing a shell game with their sources of money.

I'm also a little confused about what happens in the relationship between debt relief on the one hand, and states that don't opt in on the other.

---

I'm actually pretty on board with the Wall Street tax (though I am curious why there's a lower rate for derivatives, which, at least to my admittedly shaky understanding of them, are the most speculative). But spending it in this way seems like a colossal waste.

2/18/2020 8:09:59 AM

eleusis
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Is student loan debt forgiveness going to be treated as taxable income to the people that receive it?

2/18/2020 1:58:43 PM

dtownral
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Sanders and warren have said they will be tax free but it's not clear to me if they can do that without a second bill

2/18/2020 5:19:03 PM

Big4Country
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I don't know how true it is, but I heard on some political talk show that whatever amount the government offers with federal students loans is about 10K less than what the universities charge. The universities will take every dollar they can get. Government involvement never seems to be a good thing. Our government can't afford to fund all of these things that the left is promoting. In the end no government program is going to make your life better. It is up to you to get an education that will allow you to make a decent wage.

2/18/2020 7:43:56 PM

dtownral
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Stop listening to conservative talk radio

2/18/2020 10:57:41 PM

utowncha
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its not going to happen but if it does? it will certainly be taxed as income.

2/19/2020 6:45:04 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Another option is to just cap federal student loan outlays per semester. If students cannot raise the money to pay ever higher tuition, then colleges will stop raising tuition every year."


It doesn't follow that capping federal student loan outlays will stop students raising money to pay higher tuition. They'll find some mechanism to get that money - private loans, parents having to take second mortgages, what have you - and that mechanism will almost certainly be less forgiving than federal student loans.

2/19/2020 8:27:07 AM

marko
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Quote :
"In the end no government program is going to make your life better."


I encourage you to listen to the countless oral histories from people from the Greatest/Silent generation about the life-changing Works Progress Administration from both a personal and public engagement perspective.

2/19/2020 9:41:20 AM

shoot
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I will let my daughter apply as many Ivy-league schools as she wants.



[Edited on February 19, 2020 at 9:54 AM. Reason : And I don't have to worry about her student loan anymore!]

2/19/2020 9:53:43 AM

marko
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AIM FOR THE STARS AND YOU MIGHT HIT MARS

2/19/2020 10:57:57 AM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"tl;dr colleges have competition, but it's mostly for top students/faculty, costs are driven by the continuing need to accommodate more students as populations grow"


Oh yes, nothing here but inflation. Housing also requires land and construction, but the price of housing has not skyrocketed like tuition has.

2/19/2020 3:52:13 PM

rjrumfel
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@shoot - I don't think either plan applies to private schools.

2/19/2020 4:05:14 PM

shoot
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2/19/2020 4:44:41 PM

GrumpyGOP
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The fundamental problem is that everyone is convinced that a college education is necessary, and when something is necessary, people will spend whatever they have to in order to get it. The same phenomenon explain why medical care come in second on that inflation comparison - there's a lot of "healthcare" provided in this country because it seems necessary, even though it isn't.

The surest way to rein in costs in both cases would be to convince Jimmy's parents that Jimmy does not need a four year university education to be a well-rounded, well-paid adult, and that Jimmy's 87 year old grandmother probably will not see that much improvement in her existence from a $45,000 medical operation. And we're screwed, because both of these things are impossible to do.

2/20/2020 7:52:31 AM

wdprice3
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Quote :
"I don't know how true it is, but I heard on some political talk show that whatever amount the government offers with federal students loans is about 10K less than what the universities charge. The universities will take every dollar they can get. Government involvement never seems to be a good thing. Our government can't afford to fund all of these things that the left is promoting. In the end no government program is going to make your life better. It is up to you to get an education that will allow you to make a decent wage."


lemme introduce you to the NC Constitution:

Quote :
"Sec. 9. Benefits of public institutions of higher education.

The General Assembly shall provide that the benefits of The University of North Carolina and other public institutions of higher education, as far as practicable, be extended to the people of the State free of expense."

2/20/2020 8:30:41 AM

Cabbage
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^^
Quote :
" And we're screwed, because both of these things are impossible to do."


I don't know. Fox News seems to be having some success convincing their viewers that a college education is not only not necessary, it's an evil liberal indoctrination center.

2/20/2020 9:39:49 AM

ElGimpy
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Quote :
"The surest way to rein in costs in both cases would be to convince Jimmy's parents that Jimmy does not need a four year university education to be a well-rounded, well-paid adult"


What are the statistics on pay 3/5/10/etc years out from a 4 year degree vs whatever the best alternative is?

2/20/2020 1:14:46 PM

daaave
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^
https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/high-school-graduates-who-work-full-time-had-median-weekly-earnings-of-718-in-second-quarter.htm

Quote :
"Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers age 25 and older were $909 in the second quarter of 2017. Full-time workers without a high school diploma had median weekly earnings of $515, compared with $718 for high school graduates (no college) and $1,189 for those with a bachelor's degree. Full-time workers with advanced degrees (professional or master's degree and above) had median weekly earnings of $1,451."


Quote :
"The surest way to rein in costs in both cases would be to convince Jimmy's parents that Jimmy does not need a four year university education to be a well-rounded, well-paid adult, and that Jimmy's 87 year old grandmother probably will not see that much improvement in her existence from a $45,000 medical operation. And we're screwed, because both of these things are impossible to do."


Bernie's plan includes trade schools.

2/20/2020 1:18:04 PM

ElGimpy
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so basically if you want your child to have the highest potential they need a college education, statistically speaking

2/20/2020 1:43:57 PM

A Tanzarian
drip drip boom
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aka the meritocracy trap

2/20/2020 4:20:53 PM

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