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horosho
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I read the whole thing but my post wasn't a response to the essay but a response to Daave calling me the character from the essay along with a series of attacks from him lately. If I didn't understand something from the essay, which highly possible, proper etiquette would be to point that out and correct it. Not everyone understand everything that you understand.

4/23/2020 11:06:22 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"I look up to people like Fred Hampton more than any"


Quote :
" Daave may think owning 1 house is an unacceptable"


No, I think being a landlord is unacceptable for a leftist, as did Fred Hampton, who was a Maoist.

4/23/2020 11:08:41 PM

horosho
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I think you are missing the context of "landlord" because I think that is against people who exploit housing and not simply anyone who owns one house and lets someone else use it. but If you aren't wrong about the context of "evil landlord", what should I be doing? Would a housing swap be just as bad? can a leftist run a bed and breakfast? I'm not pretending to have clean hands but I see no other way forward.

I always ask myself how the world would be different if I didn't do the action. They would be paying a lot more to someone i consider a "real landlord". What about short term renters like my tenant in general. What should they do? What would I do if my landlord wasn't doing something similar? I can't afford the average rent within 45 minutes of my job but my landlord doesn't exploit me as much as others. I'm not excusing the system, I'm just saying it is what it is and what else could i do?

What about working class people like me who can't afford to buy a home without hustling in a capitalist system? What do you think we should do as leftists? Would I be better if I quit teaching and worked as a petroleum engineer and thus could afford a home where I work? and then what happens to the world when there are no leftists left teaching?

I get it "live it, don't say it" but moaists who "live it" generally get assassinated by this system. Literally and figuratively.

[Edited on April 23, 2020 at 11:42 PM. Reason : is the path to home ownership off-limits for working class leftists]

4/23/2020 11:34:03 PM

Geppetto
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perhaps you have uncovered the hypocrisy of far left dogma. it's hard to live it, but also be able to survive the system enough to influence the policy. that's why heads of leftists movements tend to be part of the top 1% as much as other movements.

4/24/2020 3:09:10 PM

Dentaldamn
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While I would like to own the house I live in...it's a massive money pit. Renting is much more comfortable.

4/24/2020 3:41:47 PM

daaave
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^^
It's not hypocritical for a leftist to exist under capitalism. But there's a fundamental difference between being a consumer and an exploiter/rentier.

^
I actually don't think renting one home is a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, it's just a funny contradiction for a preachy "socialist" on top of a pile of other contradictions. Mr. G!

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2020 4:08:43 PM

horosho
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What pile of other contradictions? Preachy? I'm not the one trying to measure left testicular circumference.

And are you saying Bernie Sanders, a millionaire, owning 2 homes and letting one sit vacant is NOT as hypocritical as my situation? You are dodging the questions I asked. You're cherrypicking things I do labeling them as unethical without actually describe any ethical reasoning. You may have just implied renting my personal property is unethical. Either that, or your're conflating personal property with private property. No one knows!

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 5:12 PM. Reason : i believe everyone should be able to own a home yet me owning one home makes me a hypocrit?]

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 5:13 PM. Reason : why am i, a stranger on a message board, held to a higher standard than the candidate you work for]

4/24/2020 5:07:27 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"i believe everyone should be able to own a home yet me owning one home makes me a hypocrit?"


I'm not really interested in engaging in this, but I'm curious to know what you plan on doing with your tenant once the mortgage is paid?

4/24/2020 5:17:16 PM

horosho
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The mortgage won't be paid for decades. My tenant loves the location does not plan on being around much longer than a few years. Same boat I'm in. I will find someone else in a similar situation or go back to renting it on airbnb until I need to move in. I plan on eventually living in the one home I own.

4/24/2020 5:32:47 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"You may have just implied renting my personal property is unethical. Either that, or your're conflating personal property with private property."


*your private property. You aren't personally using it, you're generating passive income (or equity, w/e) via a social relationship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property#Personal_versus_private_property

Quote :
"why am i, a stranger on a message board, held to a higher standard than the candidate you work for"


Alright this is the last thing I'm engaging with. Bernie is a highly paid worker. He owns one home and inherited another. He made money from writing books. None of these things involve an exploitative relationship.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 5:49 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2020 5:39:47 PM

horosho
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Private property involves use for profit. Revenue is not the same as profit. I'm not using my house now because the commute would be over 2 hours.

The link you provided has homes intended for personal use as an example of personal property. Again, what should I do? what is your answer to any of the questions brought forward? Maybe they haven't thought any of this through.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 6:10 PM. Reason : if you are so sound,why can't you explain your ideology in the context of basic questions about life]

4/24/2020 5:54:21 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"The mortgage won't be paid for decades."


This is irrelevant

Quote :
"My tenant loves the location does not plan on being around much longer than a few years. "


This tenant will be giving you money (that he or she generates via selling their labor), and you in turn will use that money to build equity.

Quote :
"I will find someone else in a similar situation or go back to renting it on airbnb until I need to move in. I plan on eventually living in the one home I own."


And these subsequent tenants/renters in this scenario will have provided their labor for you to have ownership of your private property, which they will not have ownership over. This is the point that dave is trying to make. You are extracting 1/3 (median rental/salary assumption) of the labor output of your tenant(s) during their stay so that you may have sole ownership over private property.


Also, I don't know where this Fred Hampton discussion took place, but as Daaave mentioned, he was a Maoist, and Mao had some pretty interesting positions toward landlords that you might want to look up


Quote :
"Private property involves use for profit"


You are buying a house at a discount. That's profit. There are a few ways you can look at this:

A) You are getting more house than you can reasonably afford from your income alone
B) You are getting the same amount of house you can afford from your income but in a faster timeframe that you can afford from your income alone
C) You are getting a more valuable asset that will appreciate in value over time than you could otherwise reasonably afford from income alone.

Any way you slice it, the profit will be realized via the collection of rent that is extracted from your tenants, which relieves you of your financial burden that you could not otherwise achieve on your own. Private ownership of land and rent seeking is the foundation of modern capitalism, and any leftist worth his or her salt would tell you that.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 6:44 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2020 6:27:18 PM

horosho
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You just explained what is happening but did not explain how it is "exploitation". A landlord is generally used to refer to a person who buys multiple homes and rents them out for profit. I do not own multiple homes nor do I rent them for profit. I am a teacher by profession.
Quote :
"This tenant will be giving you money (that he or she generates via selling their labor), and you in turn will use that money to build equity."

I see why you think that but its wrong. I use my teaching salary to pay for my home. That equity is from my labor. I'm using the rent money to pay rent where I live. I'm using that money to do the same thing they are doing. Pay rent short term in a place that is not near my home.
Quote :
"And these subsequent tenants/renters in this scenario will have provided their labor for you to have ownership of your private property, which they will not have ownership over. This is the point that dave is trying to make. You are extracting 1/3 (median rental/salary assumption) of the labor output of your tenant(s) during their stay"

No my tenant is of a higher class than me and makes more than me but doesn't want to buy anything here because they will not be around long enough for it to make sense. They want to feel at home so I rent my personal home to them.

All of the questions I asked Daave were really important to diagnosing how you view this situation because I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative, more ethical path forward. IF this is unethical, what would a person in need of a short term rental do in an ethical world? How would someone from Germany work for a few years in California? Would short term workers be expected to buy and sale homes and furnish them everytime they travel to a new work location? That doesn't seem reasonable.
Quote :
"you may have sole ownership over private property"
.
I don't believe sharing your personal property turns it into private property. I'd get the argument if it was a 2nd home, but its the only home I own. Dave seems to be arguing that inherited property is always personal but I always thought it was based on need. Everyone needs to be able to own one home to avoid being exploited by actual landlords.

Quote :
"You are buying a house at a discount. That's profit. There are a few ways you can look at this:

A) You are getting more house than you can reasonably afford from your income alone
B) You are getting the same amount of house you can afford from your income but in a faster timeframe that you can afford from your income alone
C) You are getting a more valuable asset that will appreciate in value over time than you could otherwise reasonably afford from income alone.

Any way you slice it, the profit will be realized via the collection of rent that is extracted from your tenants, which relieves you of your financial burden that you could not otherwise achieve on your own. "

These are all false. You are operating under the assumption that this is private property but I've told you its not. Banks actually structure loans a special way for income property. This is a first home loan and you have to be able to afford the home on your own income to qualify. I am not a landlord and do not even agree with owning more houses than you need (1). The fact that I'm not using it right at this very moment doesn't keep it from being personal property.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 7:00 PM. Reason : you edited while i was posting]

4/24/2020 6:54:38 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
" I am a teacher by profession. "


You're clearly not a math teacher because...

Quote :
"I use my teaching salary to pay for my home. That equity is from my labor. I'm using the rent money to pay rent where I live. I'm using that money to do the same thing they are doing. Pay rent short term in a place that is not near my home. "


ANYONE could tell you that this is the exact same thing I just described VIA THE TRANSITIVE PROPERTY

4/24/2020 6:59:31 PM

daaave
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you should end on that high note. only pain from this point on.

4/24/2020 7:06:05 PM

rwoody
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Color of money discussions are annoying at work but at least they have meaning, imagine making a color of money argument about your personal life.

4/24/2020 7:14:56 PM

horosho
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Ending without suggesting an alternative way forward or answering any big picture questions renders the entire thing useless. Its easy to criticize any participation in a capitalist economy from the left but giving an alternative act actually requires thought. I see why continuing to use a device acquired through the exploitation of labor involves pain.

We live in a system where the working class makes barely enough to get by yet daave thinks a working class person who wants to seek temporary work somewhere else should have to buy another house and leave their old house vacant which is only possible for people who have inherited wealth (which is somehow considered ethical) or rent from landlords forever.

and if they aren't a millioniare and can't find work near their personal home? Well I guess fuck them?

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 7:26 PM. Reason : yikes]

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 7:28 PM. Reason : you should look up what they did to fred hampton]

4/24/2020 7:25:11 PM

JesusHChrist
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I don't think anyone is mad at you for rooking a rich person to offset your costs (if that is indeed what you're doing). I'm not knocking the hustle. But just be honest about what you're doing or the practice you're engaging in.

You are using someone else's labor to offset a cost for an asset(s) and/or using their labor to offset the risks of a liability you could otherwise not afford from the sweat of your own labor alone. That's a capitalism. You're doing a capitalism. At a very small scale, yes. But don't fool yourself into thinking that you are not.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 7:34 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2020 7:31:02 PM

horosho
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How is it "rooking" when they were about to pay 40% more for any similar home? How do you determine a fair price? Wouldn't charging market value be capitalism? I'd agree having a stock based retirement fund is definitely capitalism and I do that so I'm not trying to say my hands are completely clean in life.

Capitalism on a small scale does not make me a hypocrite nor does it make Bernie one. Yes I definitely have the income to afford the home I own and the furniture on nothing but my salary. Thats how mortgage qualification works. Would your ideal socialist transition not involve capitalism on a small scale? What does your ideal housing situation look like? Imagine if you didn't own a vacation home and went on a vacation? Where would you stay? Would temporary cashless housing swaps be permitted? Shared economy?

Seeking survival by participating within a system I find unethical is not hypocrisy, its alienation. Any leftist should understand alienation and how it works. If you are able to buy a home everytime you move or find temporary work, its privilege that was earned within a capitalist system. Having a guaranteed pension or inheritance to rely on for survival after you can't work is also privilege. Education, healthcare, and nearly every industrial good you have ever purchased was offset by an unearned advantage or value from someone else's labor. Telling me that is not telling me...anything.

Theres an easy answer to the question of why you guys aren't suggesting ethical alternatives. They generally don't exist in this country. You either participate or you die.

[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 8:24 PM. Reason : p]

4/24/2020 8:23:26 PM

JesusHChrist
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I'm trying to give you an elegant out on this but you keep digging your heels

Quote :
"Yes I definitely have the income to afford the home I own and the furniture on nothing but my salary."


Yes, but you do not have enough income to afford both your mortgage and your temporary rent. You are getting someone else to pay that for you. Your liabilities (mortgage+rent owed) outweigh your income (your salary), and you are offloading a liability onto another person. You do not perceive this as income because you do not see it. But if that cash flow stops tomorrow, you will suddenly have to pay both a mortgage and rent.

Here's a rudimentary breakdown of your financial picture:


_________(Money In)_____________|______(Money Out)__________________




Here's what you think it is:


_____(Income) __________________|____(Mortgage) + (Rental Expense)-(Rental Income)___



Here's what it actually is:


_____(Income) + (Rental Income)___|______(Mortgage) + (Rental Expense)___



In this scenario, you are robbing Peter (your renter) to pay Paul (your landlord)

If Peter stops paying, you are left with this scenario:


______(Income)_________________|__(Mortgage) + (Rental Expense) + (Loss of Rental Income)__


When that loss of rental income becomes a liability, the picture becomes clearer and we suddenly realize that you are potentially over-leveraged to continue your current lifestyle. Without Peter and subsequent Peter's, you will not be able to carry on with your current condition. Your survival as it currently stands is dependent on Peter continuing to provide you with a stream of cash.

You are using mind-bending accounting to fool yourself into thinking that you are not over-leveraged (which could potentially blow up in your face, by the way). The profit you are enjoying is hard to see right now because you've convinced yourself its on the other side of the ledger. It isn't



[Edited on April 24, 2020 at 9:06 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2020 9:03:43 PM

daaave
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Using the Marxist concept of alienation (incorrectly) to justify being a landlord...honestly I don't even know what to say.

Quote :
"Theres an easy answer to the question of why you guys aren't suggesting ethical alternatives. They generally don't exist in this country. You either participate or you die."


This question is being avoided because the answer is very obvious, which makes it clear you're looking for an opening for another weird diversion. The vast majority of this country makes a living without extracting profit from the labor of others. Don't be a landlord. Don't be a capitalist. Practice solidarity by earning a living through your own labor and collectively working toward a society where capitalists and rentiers don't exist.

4/24/2020 9:23:19 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Seeking survival by participating within a system I find unethical is not hypocrisy, its alienation"


"Alienation" refers to a lack of creative ownership over one's work. It's the drudgery of feeling like a cog in a machine. It doesn't mean whatever you seem to think it means.

Quote :
"What does your ideal housing situation look like? Imagine if you didn't own a vacation home and went on a vacation? Where would you stay? "


You mean a hotel? Those things that already exist?

Quote :
" What does your ideal housing situation look like? "


The majority of your concerns could be alleviated by having a housing surplus. More homes than people would allow for the freedom of movement. But within a capitalist system, a surplus is not profitable which is why we have housing crises across the country even though we also have historically high rental costs. It is not profitable to own an empty home, which I'm pretty sure you should understand, because....you know....

4/24/2020 9:28:50 PM

CaelNCSU
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Quote :
"
No, I think being a landlord is unacceptable for a leftist, as did Fred Hampton, who was a Maoist."


The problem today is people that leverage in a speculative investment then when it goes south get bailed out by someone who didn't take the risk. It's risk hiding and socializing losses which is completely unacceptable.

Buying a house and renting it is fine, if you're on the hook when the market tanks. Buying back your stock so your equity compensation stays high then expecting someone else to cover the company or bundling a bunch of risky mortgages and expecting someone else to cover your ass that had none of the upside is way worse.

4/25/2020 12:55:17 AM

Dentaldamn
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I’m not sure what the end goal is here. Everyone can not own the place they live nor do they want to. I’m comfortable paying rent to avoid the risk of property ownership the same way I buy fruit at the store instead of growing it.

I interact with co-ops ranging from rich ones on Park Ave to poor ones in Yonkers and the ownership pains are massive. Even the poorest have to hire management companies bc if they don’t their buildings will inevitability get fined by the city and rot from the inside out.

This surplus talk is fun and all but property ownership requires work.

4/25/2020 1:53:38 AM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"the same way I buy fruit at the store instead of growing it."


apples to apples, for sure

4/25/2020 3:00:54 AM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"More homes than people would allow for the freedom of movement. But within a capitalist system, a surplus is not profitable"

More homes than people is the natural state, as some property is up for sale or rent and not currently occupied.

But what is the socialist housing system? Presumably you don't mean state-capitalism as the USSR practiced? Someone has to pay the workers that built the house. Who is that someone and where did they get their money?

4/25/2020 3:02:03 AM

StTexan
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I’m not a macro economic libertarian like yourself, but i figured housing is less than amount of people, which is why prices go higher and we have so many homeless

4/25/2020 3:15:04 AM

JesusHChrist
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in a hyper capitalist society like the US, you'll often have both (^^) a surplus in housing, as well as rampant homelessness like (^) mentioned. This would seem like a contradiction, until you realize that extreme wealth inequality simply removes the homeless out of the market completely, and landlords preserve their investment by marketing to a narrower pool of affluent renters.

Libertarian thinking ("SuPplY aNd DemAnD, BaSIc EconOmIcS 101" types) would suggest that the demand represented by the existence of homelessness would put pressure on landlords to lower rent to fill their vacancies. However, this is not the case, as landlords are driven by a profit motive and commercial and extremely wealthy landlords have the capital reserves to hold on to vacancies and wait for more affluent renters to enter the market, thus preventing them from ever taking a loss on their investment. The homeless are effectively a non-factor on rental asking prices, because the stratification of wealth leaves the market with the super wealthy owners renting to affluent workers. The poor are just screwed and left unaccounted for.

But as the pool of affluent renters becomes more and more strained, as may happen now with 26 million newly unemployed Americans, they can no longer afford their high rents and end up breaking leases and facing evictions. An event at this scale and at this pace is unprecedented, and without massive government intervention, we will see a wave of evictions in 2 to 3 months as even middle to high earning renters may not be able to pay back rent for the time that they were legally prohibited from leaving their homes to earn a paycheck.

1 out of 3 renters didn't pay rent this month. Think about that. That's a powder keg ready to explode. This is the real reason why states like Georgia are jumping the gun on re-opening the economy. The land-owning class needs their renters to pay their rents so that the landlords can retain their investments and keep being landlords.

4/25/2020 4:12:39 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"But what is the socialist housing system?"


Public housing is a thing that used to exist in this country. Housing was built based on need, not profit. But conservative Reagonomics completely gutted that safety net, so now we just "let the markets" do their work and we are left with mass homelessness as a result, because, like I mentioned above, the homeless are removed from the equation. Conservatives love to scoff at public housing and point out its deficiencies, but at least it attempted to marshal state resources to fulfill a societal need. Our current model doesn't even try.

4/25/2020 4:22:30 AM

Dentaldamn
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I live in a 120 year old house that is on an entire block of similar spec homes. They were certainly built with profit in mind.

Oh and I agree, rental properties are going to take a huge hit but so will co-ops, condos and single family homes.

[Edited on April 25, 2020 at 11:14 AM. Reason : Derp]

4/25/2020 11:11:30 AM

LoneSnark
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^ section 8 is a thing. It helps to understand a system when you're criticising it. But public housing has almost never been free. When the Soviet Union charged rent. Pay it or lose your home. So I don't get the accusation being made that rent is unsocialist.

[Edited on April 25, 2020 at 1:13 PM. Reason : .m.]

4/25/2020 1:11:27 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"
If Peter stops paying, you are left with this scenario:


In this scenario, you are robbing Peter (your renter) to pay Paul (your landlord)"

If Peter and subsequent Peters stopped paying, then I would go live in my house so the scenario of me needing to pay both does not exist. This is why I'm not a landlord. I only have one home.

Robbing Peter really? If you want to honestly break down the transaction of what he gives me as "rental income" then you need to also include the rent being 60% of what it should be as me returning 40% to him as his share making it more of a partnership than a exploitative relationship. There is a rental market and I am not operating in that market. Landlords are.

Quote :
"Practice solidarity by earning a living through your own labor and collectively working toward a society where capitalists and rentiers don't exist."

This is literally what I'm doing. At the end of this, me and my tenant are less likely to be renters than we would be if I didn't do it. I bought the house out of need. I believe everyone needs to own a home and renting forever leaves you vulnerable long term. You just don't like it yet you've somehow done gymnastics to decide that rich leftists letting houses sit vacant is good while laborers renting them out at a bargain would be evil.

And even when you buy a consumer good like a computer, you aren't buying it with your labor, you're also buying it with the labor value of people who helped produce that good. There isn't a way forward in capitalism where you aren't already benefiting from other people's labor. Your hands cannot be pure.

Quote :
""Alienation" refers to a lack of creative ownership over one's work. It's the drudgery of feeling like a cog in a machine. It doesn't mean whatever you seem to think it means."

That is one example of alienation but it has a deeper meaning that you are both overlooking in favor of the most common context. In a broad sense, alienation is about the loss of agency for people living within a system they cannot control.

This is a similar mistake to what is causing you to think I'm a landlord because most rentiers are profit-seeking landlords but it isn't renting that makes someone a landlord in the sense of landlords being bad. This is why we define personal property separately from private property.
Quote :
"You mean a hotel? Those things that already exist?"

Employee owned hotels are pretty rare and if one isn't in the area, you're going to end up exploiting workers.
Quote :
"The majority of your concerns could be alleviated by having a housing surplus. More homes than people would allow for the freedom of movement. But within a capitalist system, a surplus is not profitable which is why we have housing crises across the country even though we also have historically high rental costs. It is not profitable to own an empty home, which I'm pretty sure you should understand, because....you know...."

Now imagine if everyone owning those empty homes rented them at 60% market value. This would drive rental prices down significantly. People would still be renting, but it'd be a lot more suitable for everyday people and the scale of the housing crises would be significantly reduced.

[Edited on April 25, 2020 at 1:21 PM. Reason : k]

4/25/2020 1:18:29 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"Now imagine if everyone owning those empty homes rented them at 60% market value. This would drive rental prices down significantly. People would still be renting, but it'd be a lot more suitable for everyday people and the scale of the housing crises would be significantly reduced."

The demand for housing would go up significantly. Why live with a roommate when we can now pay the same for each having our own place. Housing is one of those things where demand is functionally limitless. The only thing keeping demand in check is either the price, luck, graft, or the housing allocation board.

For example, Houston has far more square footage of housing per resident than San Francisco where it costs a lot more. Run the clock back to 1988, both cities had far more housing available per capita than Moscow where a strick price ceiling was in effect.

[Edited on April 25, 2020 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .,.]

4/25/2020 2:05:28 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"And even when you buy a consumer good like a computer, you aren't buying it with your labor, you're also buying it with the labor value of people who helped produce that good."


you really are just making this up as you go huh

4/25/2020 2:10:45 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"section 8 is a thing."


Section 8 has been gutted, which is why urban renewal has been a trend and gentrification in historically minority neighborhood has occurred. The rules defining below market rate units has also been manipulated to tether it to market rate units which means BMR units are still unaffordable to many. This was the result of the HOPE VI effort. Ben freaking Carson is the head of Housing and Urban Development, so don't even come in here and pretend that there hasn't been a coordinated effort to undermine housing rights in order to boost concentrated land ownership into the hands of the wealthy.

Quote :
"For example, Houston..."


Stop. This is so far above your station and you keep sounding off on this when you shouldn't.

Quote :
"If Peter and subsequent Peters stopped paying, then I would go live in my house so the scenario of me needing to pay both does not exist. This is why I'm not a landlord. I only have one home."


You could literally do this now. There's nothing stopping you. You are choosing to rent because you enjoy the convenience of a shorter commute. This shorter commute is paid for by the PROFIT you receive from Peter. Without that profit, your quality of life is burdened by a longer commute.



[Edited on April 25, 2020 at 4:38 PM. Reason : ]

4/25/2020 4:36:43 PM

horosho
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I won't take credit for making up the concept of low prices on consumer products being subsidized by the exploitation of workers.
Quote :
"You could literally do this now. There's nothing stopping you. You are choosing to rent because you enjoy the convenience of a shorter commute. This shorter commute is paid for by the PROFIT you receive from Peter. Without that profit, your quality of life is burdened by a longer commute."

We are both benefiting by being where we want to be right now in the short term which makes it more like a trade. Its a mutually beneficial relationship. This is why I asked the question about housing swaps early on.

This is the first time I've heard revenue described as profit. I'll just agree to disagree with you on what profit is. You also seem to be under the impression that you can speculate and predict the amount of equity growth in a short term period and that it is greater than the summation of 40% of the rent. I don't think you realize how unlikely it would be for Peter it would be to benefit from a few years of ownership. Whatever profit you think I'm making off Peter would be lost in the costs of Peter buying a home, furnishing a home then unfurnishing, it and selling it in a few years. Or even worse, paying full rent to a real landlord.

4/26/2020 4:03:47 AM

Geppetto
All American
1909 Posts
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^ there are words, words have meanings, and their meanings matter.

Quote :
"Landlord A landlord is the owner of a house, apartment, condominium, land, or real estate which is rented or leased to an individual or business, who is called a tenant. When a juristic person is in this position, the term landlord is used. "


Nothing on here says profit. It's about the actions in play, in which you participate. Ergo, you are a landlord.

You can perhaps argue that you are a benevolent landlord, or an atypical one, but you are a landlord nonetheless.

4/27/2020 11:24:43 AM

qntmfred
retired
39877 Posts
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yo what thread is this again??

anyways...looks like one of the founders/admins of the ReopenNC Facebook group tested positive for covid

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article242317346.html

[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 12:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/27/2020 12:49:31 PM

nacstate
All American
3720 Posts
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4/27/2020 12:54:18 PM

rjrumfel
All American
21951 Posts
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Fuck. Our neighbors probably know this person personally.

4/27/2020 1:14:06 PM

horosho
All American
1537 Posts
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^^^
V
[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 1:22 PM. Reason : responding to gapetto. I was on topic but then got personally attacked out the blue and responded]

[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 1:22 PM. Reason : good idea]

4/27/2020 1:20:36 PM

qntmfred
retired
39877 Posts
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may I suggest at this point y'all move the capitalism is evil discussion to a more appropriate thread

[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 1:22 PM. Reason : take a hint]

4/27/2020 1:21:51 PM

Flyin Ryan
All American
8150 Posts
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Quote :
"^ section 8 is a thing. It helps to understand a system when you're criticising it. But public housing has almost never been free. When the Soviet Union charged rent. Pay it or lose your home. So I don't get the accusation being made that rent is unsocialist."


Even base housing for the military, some people will try and argue to you "it's free!" No, the military just remove that money from your paycheck as "rent" for base housing.


To get back on topic, I'm seriously feeling depression vibes. I get wanting to reopen the economy because the depression risk to me is real, and it is an election year, but I feel politicians are facing a very poor choice of choose the depression or choose a higher death toll due to Covid. And that's politicians globally, not just on a state level. And even if we reopen, it's not like economic activity will match what it was before. It's still going to be down.

The irony is right now our consumption numbers have cratered on everything except grocery, which is going to really kill the numbers of certain segments of the Chinese economy.

[Edited on April 28, 2020 at 9:05 AM. Reason : /]

4/28/2020 8:39:34 AM

Rem Lezar
Veteran
156 Posts
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Protest marches are banned under this order. People who want to say their piece about their rent, their unemployment, their being exploited. They’re banned from doing it by the police, and we know the police dont keep us safe. They protect the big fat cats.If you want the people to rise up, you need to push back against this Police State and REOPEN NC.

4/28/2020 10:10:56 AM

Exiled
Eyes up here ^^
5905 Posts
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Marches aren't banned so long as they practice correct social distancing protocols

4/28/2020 11:06:36 AM

TerdFerguson
All American
6333 Posts
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You have the same chance of winning a minor prize ($20-$150) in the NC lottery than you do of receiving the unemployment the state owes you:

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2020/04/28/study-north-carolina-ranks-dead-last-in-covid-19-pandemic-support/

4/28/2020 11:21:57 AM

synapse
play so hard
59101 Posts
user info
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Quote :
"anyways...looks like one of the founders/admins of the ReopenNC Facebook group tested positive for covid

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article242317346.html"


I don't understand the supposed timeline of this or how she was able to obtain a test. Smells like BS

4/28/2020 11:33:13 AM

bubster5041
All American
1152 Posts
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She got sick in February, but is now an asymptomatic patient? And her quarantine is just now ending in April? I think she’s full of shit.

4/28/2020 12:19:40 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
49958 Posts
user info
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https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1255169015477006337?s=21

I mean, good I guess. But we can not send any security, police, first responders, etc and put them in danger?

They can feel self-important and then these chucklefucks can just infect each other.

4/28/2020 12:27:58 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
user info
edit post

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1255380013488189440?s=21

Lol

4/29/2020 3:20:17 PM

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