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bbehe
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Let's discuss it.

Is the idea of another 4 years of Trump being better for the world overall because it would somehow accelerate us to some utopian society a valid idea?

4/26/2020 1:34:44 PM

horosho
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Of course it depends on how you define "better for the world" and what you think "utopian society" looks like. The answer would be an obvious no to anyone who wasn't already fed up with the way the world was before Trump.

There is no good result but the answer is yes for me simply because I appreciate how politically active so many people have become since Trump woke them up and I am afraid they will all go back to sleep once Trump is out of office. Then we would eventually oscillate back to something as bad as or worse than Trump 4 or 8 years after that. There has to be a plan to address the conditions that created Trump or its not worth it.

4/26/2020 2:00:49 PM

Dentaldamn
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No thanks.

4/26/2020 2:20:18 PM

NyM410
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Historically it never works and in fact makes things worse.

Doesn’t mean you should vote for someone you don’t want to but it’s a weak sauce reason. Better to just admit you like (or can tolerate) Trump and don’t mind if he wins because he’s not that bad.

4/26/2020 2:42:09 PM

daaave
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Accelerationism is the belief that we should force the progression of capitalism to the point where its contradictions become unbearable and a revolution is inevitable. No one in this forum is an accelerationist. We can't have a debate about this because we don't have an opposing argument.

Making a principled argument against a rapist conservative democrat, 6 months before the election, giving plenty of time for reaction, is not accelerationism. Voting third party (or not voting) is also not accelerationism.

[Edited on April 26, 2020 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

4/26/2020 3:30:51 PM

bbehe
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Wanting Trump to win because you think it would result into a rubber band snap far more to the left than the US has been, is accelerationism

4/26/2020 3:33:47 PM

daaave
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a) That's not the argument I made

b) It's still not accelerationism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism

c) Read a fucking history book

Quote :
"far more to the left than the US has been"


[Edited on April 26, 2020 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

4/26/2020 4:01:33 PM

moron
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Trump has definitely fired up a lot of people who realize incrementalism just opens the door for more trumps.

Not really because of trump, but I do see a UBI coming to fruition sooner because of coronavirus and because the people who like this idea realize they can’t wait around for the lumbering giant of the Democratic Party to come on board.

More people now that before trump believe immigrants strengthen America. Trump has done material damage to the concept of globalism and this is going to be one of his few lasting effects.

There’s also gen z to look out for. For a lot of reasons they actually believe what republicans always accuse Democrats for standing for, and in probably 10 years time their politics are going to start to have an impact.

4/26/2020 4:13:02 PM

daaave
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Using the actual definition of accelerationism, it can very easily be argued that supporting Biden right now is the accelerationist stance. Neoliberalism can be directly blamed for accelerating the growth of capitalism to its present grotesque form. Accepting Biden without any critique or demand for concessions, this early in the election, is itself a concession to neoliberalism. It does nothing to divert us away from the path we've been going down for 50 years.

[Edited on April 26, 2020 at 4:55 PM. Reason : .]

4/26/2020 4:50:31 PM

JesusHChrist
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Funny how the term "accelerationism" is weaponized against those wishing to exercise their franchise by not voting for Biden, and it's never used against party insiders who cleared the lane for an obviously weak candidate.

Random progressive who votes 3rd party or abstains? Accelerationist

Obama, who orchestrated Bidens coalescing? Somehow not Accelerationist

Pete Buttigeg, who dropped out while in the lead? Somehow not Accelerationist

Klobuchar, Beto, who cynically rallied around Joe? Somehow not Accerationist

Elizabeth Warren, who stayed in the race with no chance? Somehow not Accelerationist

Michael Bloomberg, a billionaire Republican who ran as a Democrat? Somehow not an Accelerationist



The term is only deployed against citizens exercising their right to vote, and it is used as a shield to protect the actions of powerful political operatives and titans of industry who are far more culpable for our nations drift toward fascism.

4/26/2020 5:37:53 PM

bbehe
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Quote :
"Funny how the term "accelerationism" is weaponized against those wishing to exercise their franchise by not voting for Biden, and it's never used against party insiders who cleared the lane for an obviously weak candidate.""


Not really, I don't care if you vote for Trump, Biden or no one, but to pretend that Trump winning would somehow be better for people on the left in the long run is a joke.

Quote :
"Pete Buttigeg, who dropped out while in the lead? "


lol what? What magic are you using here to come to this conclusion? He wasn't in the delegate lead

4/26/2020 6:18:54 PM

JesusHChrist
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I should have said leading after Iowa, which I believe he's the first Dem to drop out that quickly after winning Iowa. my mistake, going off of memory, here and didn't re-read my post. But the fact that dem party insiders rallied around Biden instead of Bernie who was the frontrunner really speaks to how cynical the accusation of "accelerationism" is when used to attack the left. That they specifically undermined Bernie's rising popularity in order to prop up Joe demonstrates how bad faith their accusations of accelerationism is.

Quote :
"Not really, I don't care if you vote for Trump, Biden or no one, but to pretend that Trump winning would somehow be better for people on the left in the long run is a joke."


I don't know any leftists who genuinely believe this. I think it's mostly a strawman argument that's built up by center-right Dems to bludgeon the left and force them to fall in line.

[Edited on April 26, 2020 at 6:53 PM. Reason : ]

4/26/2020 6:47:27 PM

bbehe
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Quote :
"I should have said leading after Iowa, which I believe he's the first Dem to drop out that quickly after winning Iowa. "


This is also wrong, Harkin won Iowa and dropped out the day prior to Super Tuesday. This was in 1992.

Quote :
"I don't know any leftists who genuinely believe this."


Have you met daave? Or been on any one of the many cancer subs on reddit?

Quote :
""At the moment I'd prefer Trump win because it gives us another opportunity in 4 years to do what needs to be done"
[user]daave[/user]"


Biden is going to be a one term president elected, the dems will have a chance to put up someone again in 4 years.

Progressives who don't want to vote, I disagree with their strategy, but hey, it is their vote to cast.

Progressives who are hoping Donald Trump wins, for any reason, because the think it'll means they can have another Bernie style candidate in 2024 or someone farther left, I think they're morons.

[Edited on April 26, 2020 at 9:01 PM. Reason : a]

4/26/2020 9:00:41 PM

daaave
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We have already lost out to acceleration. Biden and Trump will both continue the neoliberal death spiral. As the rest of my post said, which you chose to ignore, as you do every time it inconveniences the strawman you've built around me, I am looking for Biden to embrace more progressive policies and hopefully choose a VP that isn't a ghoul like himself. Because we won't be running another candidate in 2024, we'll be running whoever that VP is. This is the anti-accelerationist position and how we can squeeze out promises Biden can be held accountable to.

4/26/2020 9:26:56 PM

StTexan
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Quote :
" I don't know any leftists who genuinely believe this"


So why should trump win then

4/26/2020 11:13:44 PM

bubster5041
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This sounds like some doomsday cult shit. It’s a no for me.

4/27/2020 12:36:19 AM

moron
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https://twitter.com/msnbc/status/1254764438000984064?s=21

Pelosi calling for basic income

4/27/2020 10:18:52 AM

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