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 Message Boards » » Leftists living in capitalist society Page [1]  
horosho
All American
1537 Posts
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As a leftist living in capitalism, I've realized that capitalism isn't going anywhere and that I need to secure housing, healthcare, education, and retirement. This requires participation in capitalism which is an ethical dilemma.

Quote :
"Thats correct. it was never an argument about semantics or if I rent a house. The full context of the argument is that landlords generally hoard housing supply to exploit tenants and I am a landlord therefore I do those things. The literal term applies even if general assumptions about the term don't necessarily apply. This requires context. Those assumptions are directly tied to a history of a very few people owning a disproportionate amount of land and using their capital to generate profit at the expense of the working class. We are using the same term to describe a person who rents their one personal home out at a cheap price for a few years months or even weeks.

and zooming out, its about the hypocrisy of being a leftist living in a capitalist country and participating in the economy at all really. Its also about the concept because by definition, I literally choose to participate in capitalism. The problem is that the only alternative in my birth country would be to risk homelessness and death. To me, that is an alienation and not a "real choice".

Jesus H seems to think its better to deprive yourself within the capitalist system for the sake of virtue signaling instead of entering a mutually beneficial, yet capitalist social agreement within the capitalist system. The version of me that takes a 2 hour commute and makes Peter pay 40% more somewhere else is ethically superior in his book.

Daave picks and chooses which parts of it he finds unacceptable which is fine, but my biggest problem is that he offers no olive branch or alternative way forward other than vague suggestions that already apply to what I am doing. Neither seems to be able to justify helping landlords exploit while being exploited by them as the solution over being a landlord while helping myself and others avoid being exploited in long-term.

In general, if you want to bring about change, you have to do a lot more than just condemn others for doing things the normal way. I hear the word contrarian a lot but then all I see are people criticizing everything without providing alternatives. Criticizing actions by painting the path for the right way forward is a more productive strategy.
"


[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 1:41 PM. Reason : one person who owns one home is not the same as one person who owns 1000 ]

4/27/2020 1:33:53 PM

marko
Tom Joad
72250 Posts
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Want to make it understood
Wanting though I never would
Trying though I know it's wrong
Blowing it to hell and gone
Wishing though I never could

Blow up the outside
Blow up the outside
Blow up the outside
Blow up the outside world

4/27/2020 1:38:52 PM

qntmfred
retired
39877 Posts
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you could move out of the country

4/27/2020 1:40:52 PM

Dentaldamn
All American
9967 Posts
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Maybe stop segmenting everything in to this ridiculous left/right pissing match.

How about.....don't be an asshole. If you're an asshole you are the enemy.

4/27/2020 1:50:29 PM

qntmfred
retired
39877 Posts
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Quote :
" Maybe stop segmenting everything in to this ridiculous left/right pissing match"


excellent point

4/27/2020 2:15:28 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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All of these points have been addressed, some of them multiple times.

It's very very simple. Living under capitalism requires consuming unethically produced goods. It does not require exploiting people via rent or profit extraction. If you're a leftist...don't do that. You should not be economically vested in sources of wealth that are fundamentally opposed to your own supposed ideology. And this bizarre, economically-illiterate defense of your status as a landlord illustrates exactly why.

There's nothing else to be said.

4/27/2020 2:20:28 PM

utowncha
All American
597 Posts
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what if hes giving them a really good deal

4/27/2020 2:24:44 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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little known fact, but in the appendix of das kapital volume 3, you will find the following

Quote :
"Note: Previous chapters on rentierism are non-applicable if the rentier owns only one home and is giving his tenants a really good deal."

4/27/2020 2:47:43 PM

LoneSnark
All American
12313 Posts
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^^^ So, just to clarify, he should kick them out and immediately report his tenants as evicted to whatever background check companies he can find. Hopefully that would save them from now or ever again being exploited by a landlord?

You socialists really are nuts. Housing is not now nor will it ever be free, so there will always be a landlord of some-sort, even if it is the worker run collective that built it, jacking up rents because they decided their labor was worth ever more in hindsight.

[Edited on April 27, 2020 at 2:56 PM. Reason : ^]

4/27/2020 2:56:32 PM

Dentaldamn
All American
9967 Posts
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I believe he wants horosho to sell his house. For what price....I cant tell you.

4/27/2020 5:27:48 PM

daaave
All American
978 Posts
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I don't give a shit what horosho does with his house, as long as his tenant is taken care of. People are allowed to make mistakes and live through them. The issue here is his incredibly stupid defense.

4/27/2020 5:39:24 PM

Dentaldamn
All American
9967 Posts
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He certainly spends more time on this website than anyone else.

4/27/2020 5:46:29 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
29786 Posts
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I got plenty of shit to say about Earl, but ^ is almost def false

4/27/2020 5:51:12 PM

horosho
All American
1537 Posts
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Critical thinking. Blindly applying a text written 150 years ago to circumstances that did not yet exist is really missing the point and is very similar to religious fundamentalism.
Quote :
"You should not be economically vested in sources of wealth that are fundamentally opposed to your own supposed ideology. "

Being homeless is not part of my ideology. You already excused Bernie Sanders for owning stock because its "for retirement" even though he is guaranteed a massive government pension for life. You are the one not being consistent because you excused Bernie owning two. homes. Not everyone inherits houses or makes enough to buy one. Renting has to be done regardless of whether I think it should exist.

My ideology involves everyone having a right to own one home (not 0 or 2 like you've suggested). Its the most essential path towards avoiding the exploitation you think I'm doing. My actions are actually leading to everyone involved owning a home because my tenant saves 40% every month and will have more money when he gets to where he wants to buy. I could easily get market value but chose to have this mutually beneficial relationship.

4/27/2020 6:43:38 PM

LoneSnark
All American
12313 Posts
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Quote :
"Blindly applying a text written 150 years ago to circumstances that did not yet exist is really missing the point and is very similar to religious fundamentalism."

Wat? Housing, of both the rental and owned varieties, existed 150 years ago. I think your point is to point out that Marx's ideas were generally dumb and have no place in any real-world applications.

4/28/2020 1:03:08 AM

marko
Tom Joad
72250 Posts
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Quote :
" Blindly applying a text written [over] 150 years ago to circumstances that did not yet exist is really missing the point and is very similar to religious fundamentalism. "


Are we talking about the Constitution here?

4/28/2020 12:52:10 PM

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