Has there ever been a plane with such a big PR/Lobbyist following? I mean, I love the BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT sound as much as the next guy, but the amount of people (especially in Congress) who think we should send them to Ukraine is insane.

3/15/2022 12:42:39 PM

i blame video games for this and most other problems

3/15/2022 1:03:33 PM

That gigantic gun attracts all the small dicks in Congress.

[Edited on March 15, 2022 at 1:31 PM. Reason : ^i had “Silent Thunder” for PC when I was in middle school. Can confirm I was a huge A10 fan then.]

3/15/2022 1:27:17 PM

i like it in DCS but im too stupid to figure it out

3/15/2022 2:09:11 PM

Let’s face it though. Most of Congress is probably frontrunning Fairchild stock as we speak. After the big announcement (resurrecting A10) they will all make a cool $100k.

3/15/2022 2:21:44 PM

I hope not since that company doesn't exist any more

3/15/2022 3:24:05 PM

(Gist of the post remains tho)

3/15/2022 6:13:50 PM

Anyone who thinks we should send Hogs to Ukraine is a fucking idiot. They don't know how to fly them, they don't know how to maintain them, they don't have parts/engines/etc for them, they don't have any munitions for them, and they would get shot in short order by SA-20/SA-21, and Fulcrums/Flankers if they encountered them.
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Also, Fairchild-Republican has been gone for, I don't know, decades probably.

3/15/2022 7:14:48 PM

congress is talking about A-10s because they talk about A-10s constantly regardless.

everyone else annoying on the internet talking about them is playing video games. in DCS a bunch of people lurk around in A-10s and get occasional sidewinder kills... or a gun kill heaven forbid.

then they go on reddit and argue its air to air virtues.

3/15/2022 7:26:11 PM

https://rollcall.com/2022/03/04/give-ukraine-u-s-aircraft-democratic-lawmaker-urges/ an Air Force veteran even!

It's insanity.

3/15/2022 7:35:50 PM

^^ I mean, anything can happen out there in the wild. Skill disparity, confusion in combat, electronic warfare, terrain masking and clever tactics + an element of luck, etc.

Could an A-10 get a kill on a Flanker? Sure. I have rolled in behind an F-18 in a gun WEZ in an EA-6 (simulating Red Air in a large force exercise). He never knew we were there and how he got killed until the TACTS debrief.

I know a Harrier pilot whose squadron did some DACT against an F-15 squadron, and got some kills on them.

EW can sometimes get less capable jets to the merge against threats that should smoke them from many dozens of miles away, and then with HOBS dogfight missiles like AIM-9X/Python/Archer/ASRAAM, anything can happen (not to say the more capable jet/pilot don't still have the advantage, but anything with one of those missiles is potentially dangerous once you're WVR, especially with multiple threats).

An A-10 once got a gun kill on an Iraqi helicopter...and an F-15E actually once got a kill on an Iraqi helicopter using an LGB--the WSO kept the sparkle on the helo after it took off, and drove a bomb right through a flying helicopter!

Crazy shit happens, and the A-10 would be dangerous in close and slow if anyone was dumb enough to try to fight one that way.


...but on average, the A-10 would get fucking massacred by any halfway competent Fulcrum or Flanker pilot. It would be like clubbing baby seals.

Never mind that they'd get shot by SAMS, anyway. CAS requires, by doctrine, at least local air superiority.


Oh, and Ukraine already has Frogfoots, anyway.

3/15/2022 8:01:33 PM

what did you think about the mig-29 plan from poland? i mean obviously it seems like their ride of choice... no training required.

but although we were already sending them equipment a bunch of fighter jets is a step too far? or was the reality we really didnt want to sell better jets to poland afterwards?

3/16/2022 8:48:07 AM

We absolutely would love to sell F-35s to Poland. It's the whole purpose of the JSF program

3/16/2022 9:23:16 AM

oh, I thought they just wanted late model F-16s?

anyway, i wonder what "red line" might put the migs back on the table? or is joe literally not going to do anything under most circumstances?

3/16/2022 9:31:04 AM

Oh sorry, yeah, the immediate plan for swapping the migs for F-16s, but Poland's end goal has always been to get more F-35s. I'm not sure why we balked at that, but I'd guess we didn't want to escalate the situation and had logistical concerns, especially as Russians were destroying air fields. I don't think it has anything to do with the US being concerned of handing Poland prior generation lawn darts.

3/16/2022 9:37:56 AM

yeah although i find it interesting i dont really know how all that works. i mean we were sending weapons to ukraine already, russia was getting annoyed and said those convoys were legitimate targets, but that was that.

okay... so ukraine sends some pilots to poland to fly migs back home. can they just paint them with ukrainian markings and change the transponders? is it really just as simple as "well a mig isnt really a javelin" and the russians indicated "BIG" weapons would be a red line?

i just dont remember reading any of that. all assumptions.

3/16/2022 10:12:17 AM

Speculation obviously, but I think it's a combination of a bunch of a things, but it's logists We can drop off Javelins at the border (which require very little training) and be on our way, but a transfer of Migs would require the pilots being housed at our bases (even if just for a few hours) or NATO pilots dropping them off at a Ukrainian airfield that's deeper in country.

As Duke (and others) keep mentioning, it could also very well be that we simply think they'd be a waste. Ukraine doesn't seem to be flying that many sorties (certainly not to their believed 100% capacity), and the Baykars and Javelins/NLAWs are more effective at hitting their armor that the pros don't outweigh the risk of looking like we're escalating.

3/16/2022 11:49:27 AM

just wondering, are you ex-military? what do you think of the random freedom fighters crossing over from poland?

3/16/2022 12:51:37 PM

Yup, ex-Air Force, I built bombs and shit.

No real problem with randos crossing the border and helping out the Ukrainians.

3/16/2022 1:38:48 PM

I get that they would be useless in Ukraine. I understand that. I also understand how anybody who has ever so much as seen an A-10 on TV would look at a close-packed, 40-mile-long convoy of armored vehicles and start drooling a little bit. Picturing it shredded by depleted uranium rounds is a pleasant distraction from the day.

But alas, no.

3/17/2022 9:07:19 AM

^^^^ That's basically it. Could they be of some value? Sure. Would it be more provocative? Yeah probably. Would there be more hurdles involved in physically doing it? Yes.

I think the Russians are averaging 200-something sorties per day. Ukraine is averaging, like, 5. They have (or at least had) nearly 100 tactical jets according to Wiki, and it's right down the list of the former Soviet usual suspects that the Russians are bringing to the fight (Fulcrum/Flanker/Frogfoot/Fencer). My guess is that a dozen or two more Fulcrums would be a bit of an asspain to work out a deal on, deliver, and possibly be made compatible with their stuff...expensive, potentially destabilizing, more likely to get destroyed on the ground and/or captured than they are in Poland, and not that useful (or even that likely to be put to use.)

In short, the juice wouldn't currently justify the squeeze or the risks.

Plus my guess is that their Frogfoots and maybe Fencers are probably more useful for what they need, anyway.
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Stingers will be dangerous to Russian helicopters, and maybe a little to a few low-flying attack jets, but not to most jets up at higher altitudes. I have no idea how much is left of their SA-10/11/12 systems. Those are all very dangerous, excellent SAMs.

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I saw that as part of our latest aid package, we're delivering them 100 of these Switchblade drones. I'd never heard of them before. Apparently they were developed for USSOCOM or JSOC or something, and the only foreign country previously authorized to buy them was the UK. Javelin is already a bad ass anti-vehicle and anti-tank weapon. These Switchblades seem great for the same, plus battlefield ISR and standoff engagement.

3/17/2022 9:14:44 PM

3/23/2022 2:48:49 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_-2FLblBk

not super relevant to the discussion, flight sim attack on very long road convoy, but the 20 minute mark was pretty killer.

[Edited on March 23, 2022 at 3:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2022 3:25:12 PM

The Highway of Death in Desert Storm

3/23/2022 9:27:53 PM