Students for Concealed Carry Empty Holster Event

submitted by MaximaDrvr on Friday, February 6 2009 at 6:10 PM

The NCSU Chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has organized an empty holster event that will take place next week. The event will run from February 9th through the 13th, and is taking place on campuses in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia.

We will be carrying empty holsters in plain view throughout the week. If you have any questions about concealed carry, concealed carry on campus, or have comments, we welcome them.

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus advocate Second Amendment Rights of citizens being honored on campus as they are already done so off of campus. If you feel the same, please join us in our empty holster event.

If you would like to participate but do not have a holster, feel free to contact MaximaDrvr or look us up on facebook to borrow one.

More information about Students for Concealed Carry can be found at www.concealedcampus.org
Please be patient, as it is a newly remodeled site and all of the information has not been uploaded yet.

posted by Eulogist on Sunday, February 8 2009 at 10:43 AM

2/8/2009 4:29:48 PM

pad

2/8/2009 6:13:12 PM

i, for one, do NOT want to be in class sitting next to somebody with a gun on his hip.

where does it end? should a middle school teacher be allowed to carry his gun to work?

2/8/2009 8:51:56 PM

I taught middle school last year, and will be doing so again in September.
I do believe that I should be able to CC when I am teaching as well.

You would not know that there is a person in class with a gun. That is the definition of Concealed Carry. Your life would not change.

2/8/2009 9:17:32 PM

lol

2/8/2009 9:43:14 PM

Quote :

"i, for one, do NOT want to be in class sitting next to somebody with a gun on his hip. "

would you have felt that way if you were at Virgina Tech when the shit was going down?

2/8/2009 10:10:28 PM

^^^ so why the holsters for this rally?


^ i'm sure I'll hear that rebuttal a lot during my fight against Guns on Campus....but i have to answer yes. i wouldn't want bullets flying at me in both directions

[Edited on February 8, 2009 at 11:35 PM. Reason : 3]

2/8/2009 11:32:59 PM

so you'd rather sit helpless in a classroom while a deranged individual with a gun (which he brought into the classroom illegally mind you) executing people?

I'd prefer to have the option to have a weapon myself, or at least let someone that wants to be responsible, register with the sheriff's office, submit their fingerprints, take a class, etc (all things you have to do to get a concealed carry permit) be able to defend themselves and others

if you make it illegal to have guns somewhere, only the people who already have no respect for the law will be armed there.

2/9/2009 12:06:09 AM

Quote :

"if you make it illegal to have guns somewhere, only the people who already have no respect for the law will be armed there."

what ever happened to police?


why not up the police force around high population areas like college campuses instead of promoting everyone carrying deadly weapons?

i know it's a right to bear arms, but I think there's a huge difference in society between when that was written and today's world.

just my opinion.

2/9/2009 8:12:06 AM

i am confident that this could be the longest story reply thread if you guys put your minds to it

2/9/2009 8:52:49 AM

I am for the idea of CC on campus... I can understand how someone might feel uncomfortable seeing someone open carry on campus though-

But if you think about it, most people assume when they see someone open carrying (assuming they don't look like some thug or some long haired cult leader) that they are some form of law enforcement

2/9/2009 9:35:53 AM

The police average response time is 4-6 minutes.
Averageing all of the 'campus gun killing sprees' an active shooter will kill 3 people a minute and wound 10. That means on average 12 people will die and 40 people will be wounded.
Most of these events end when the shooter meets resistance.

Police have no obligation or duty to protect you. This has been upheld in three seperate US Supreme Court cases.

Everyone has seen that even increasing the number of police in a given high density area does little to stop crime. It has been shown that increasing the number of people who carry guns does decrease the crime rate.

We do not promote ''everyone carrying deadly weapons'' but that people who have a concealed carry permit are granted the same constitutionally garunteed rights that they have when off campus.

We do not believe that allowing CC on campus will solve all problems. We do believe that everyone should be garunteed their own right to protect themselves.

The empty holsters show a theoretical number of people who could be carrying, or the number of people who carry off campus. There is also a group of people who support the cause even though they do not carry. The empty holsters have proven to be a good conversation starter. Another fun fact is that some (most) people don't even notice the holster. This just goes to further prove the point that if it was concealed then nobody would ever notice.

2/9/2009 9:41:12 AM

SCCC does not want Open Carry on Campuses. We promote the allowance of Concealed Carry on campus.

No one would ever see the weapon unless it was absolutely needed.

2/9/2009 9:42:24 AM

so what's with the holsters during this event?

is it just to raise awareness about guns on campus? sounds like it's sending out the wrong message about concealed vs. open carry

2/9/2009 10:43:19 AM

The empty holsters are just to raise awareness and answer questions if people ask about them.

It only sends out the wrong message to people who are againts guns, and who don't want to ask any questions.

2/9/2009 11:51:05 AM

Does it not occur to you dudes that walking around with empty holsters could look very much like walking around with non-empty holsters? Or, for that matter, that concealed carry on campus is about the stupidest idea anyone's ever come up with?

I understand the very simple theory behind it, that a guy with a concealed weapon could stop a shooter, but I also am smart enough to realize that a guy with a concealed weapon could also BE a shooter... or that one of these gun totin' cowboy heroes could have an itchy trigger finger and accidentally or "accidentally" shoot a muslim student or something if he got the wrong vibe off of him.

Keep guns off of the campus completely. Yes, I do see that a criminal would then be one of the only people with a gun, but I feel better with that idea than with hundreds of guys packin' as they walk to class. I'm more scared of 100 possibly friendly guns and the risk involved there than the chance of being shot by someone who is there for murder.

Compare the number of people killed in school shootings with the number of accidental gun deaths. I think that proves my point quickly.

2/9/2009 12:47:33 PM

Walking around with empty holsters looks nothing like people walking around with something in a holster. SCCC advocates concealed carry on campus, and no one would know there is a weapon near them unless it is absolutely necessary.
Also, there is a saying that you should think before you speak. You may want to consider that with your typing. Your entire argument is based off of emotional what-ifs, and has zero base in logic or law. It is apparent that you have no idea what goes into attaining a permit to carry concealed or what they laws are regarding use of said weapon.

The use of deadly force is only allowable when serious and imminent thread of great bodily injury or death is present. A person has a duty and obligation to retreat if at all possible before the use of deadly force is authorized. A person who carries a concealed weapon is not just going to pull out a gun and shoot someone. A person with a concealed weapon is not going to be a "gun totin' cowboy hero" and hunt down bad guys, as that would not be within the scope of the law. Statistically, a person with a Concealed Carry Permit is less likely to convicted of breaking the law than a police officer. A person with a concealed weapon that turns into a campus shooter is a criminal, and is not going to be someone with a CWP, I hope you are "smart enough" to realize that. I also hope that you are not projecting your racist (insert 'ist' word here) feelings onto others.

The number of people who conceal carry on campus would not be huge. As it is, the population of students on campus that are 21 or older is not huge. Then, the number of those people who have concealed carry permits is even smaller. Statistically, one in one hundred might have a weapon if laws allowed. You also say that there should be no guns on campus completely, does that include the police as well since campus is so safe?

The number of people involved in school shootings has nothing to do with accidental gun deaths. There is actual relation. Did you hear that the reason we have global warming is because we don't have many pirates anymore? Negligent discharges that cause injury and death occur from the improper handling of a firearm. No handling of a firearm would be occurring unless there was a serious and imminent thread of bodily injury or death.

In a VA Tech style scenario, say a person who has a CWP hears shots fired while he is sitting in class. They do not run into the hallway trying to be a hero. They stay in the room and act as the situation requires. IF the shooter would enter the room, then it would be the time when the CWP holder may take action.

2/9/2009 1:49:06 PM

^
a.

Quote :

"but I also am smart enough to realize that a guy with a concealed weapon could also BE a shooter"

apparently you arent smart enough to realize that if someone wants to come on campus with a gun and start shooting people they will do so whether it is legal or illegal to carry one on campus.

b.

Quote :

"but I feel better with that idea than with hundreds of guys packin' as they walk to class."

I think there would be a lot less people than you think. It's not that easy to get a CC permit. Not to mention you do realize in the real world, outside of your safety netting of NCSU campus, people CC on the streets all of the time. So I don't see how you couldn't like the idea of walking to class with people carrying when in reality ANY TIME you are out in public you are probably near someone who is carrying a concealed weapon.

2/9/2009 1:49:15 PM

George,

I'm generally in agreement with you but there is one flaw to your logic. The percentage of people carrying concealed on campus would be no higher then the percentage of people already carrying concealed in the general public. You rarely here of these gun tottin' cowboys but they are out there, you just don't know it.

And to reply to you statistic about school shootings vs. accidental death by a firearm, you really need to compare the statistic of school shootings vs accidental death by firearm committed by some one carrying concealed in public. The majority of accidental deaths by firearm happen in the home.



[Edited on February 9, 2009 at 3:11 PM. Reason : ..]

2/9/2009 3:01:06 PM

Quote :

"apparently you arent smart enough to realize that if someone wants to come on campus with a gun and start shooting people they will do so whether it is legal or illegal to carry one on campus."

Me, in the post above:

Quote :

"I understand the very simple theory behind it, that a guy with a concealed weapon could stop a shooter"

And yes, if you ban legal guns, the only people who will bring them on campus will mostly be criminals. I get that - but I feel more safe with the 99.99999% chance that there are no guns around me because they are illegal than the .000001% chance that the guy walking by me is going to start randomly shooting.

Quote :

"Walking around with empty holsters looks nothing like people walking around with something in a holster."

It does from a distance, especially to the untrained eye (like mine, I'm sure). And Maxima, you speak as if the people carrying around guns are all going to be responsible. There's no way to know that. I'd prefer that colleges continue to remain weapon-free places where I can feel safe, which I always have and still do, from an accident or an intentional incident involving a firearm.

And Jared, I know you're probably right, but I don't think enough shootings have happened on campuses to merit this sort of reaction.

And, just so you all know, I'm a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and am completely fine with concealed carry weapons in most public places as long as the people involved are proven to be sane. That's never 100%, but I think that the background checks for all weapons purchases are currently substandard. Personally, I think you should have to pass much more than a 1-day course or whatever in order to be granted this right.

[Edited on February 9, 2009 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2009 3:13:53 PM

Quote :

"I get that - but I feel more safe with the 99.99999% chance that there are no guns around me because they are illegal than the .000001% chance that the guy walking by me is going to start randomly shooting."

You do realize that your statistics don't change, right? You would never know there is a gun around you, whether there was or not.

Quote :

"you speak as if the people carrying around guns are all going to be responsible. There's no way to know that."

So does that mean that everyone with a weapon might not be responsible? We might as well ban guns then.

Quote :

"And Jared, I know you're probably right, but I don't think enough shootings have happened on campuses to merit this sort of reaction."

At no time should the rights of a law abiding citizen be infringed. This includes when they cross an imaginary dotted line onto college campuses. This is not a reaction to a specific incident, this is about constitutional rights.


Not everyone will be 'just legal' either. There are many people on this campus in all of the demographics. Why will crossing an imaginary line make people unstable, irrational, emotional, and cowboy impersonators? Weapons are carried concealed all around everybody during the course of their every day lives, and they don't hide saying they are afraid of being shot. Yet, you mention them near a campus and everyone is afraid. There is no logical explanation.

2/9/2009 3:56:00 PM

i'm with marko

2/9/2009 4:10:30 PM

id rather be caught alive with one than dead without one

!!!1

2/9/2009 4:27:30 PM

It's not the crossing of the imaginary line, it's who is within that imaginary line. Young, naive, stressed out, unsure people like college students are probably the worst people to group together tightly and then hand guns to.

Anyway, enjoy your cowboy party fellas. I really do understand that you're doing what you think is right, and far be it from me to get in the way of that.

2/9/2009 4:45:44 PM

you realize that in this case which you are talking about (promoting 18-22 year olds carrying guns on campus and in classrooms) has with it huge danger as these kids are, in my opinion, more likely to feel not only empowered by their gun, but entitled to use it?

in theory the CC makes sense, but in reality it just doesn't register.

and the fact that it is so easy to get a CC license is even scarier.

NCState, and all academic institutions, are places of learning and homes away from homes where you can feel safe in your environment...I think promoting firearms to the student population will only lead to a tragedy, even if by accident.

Take a lesson from Plaxico .

my 2cents worth...



good discussion though, and i think the Technician should do a forum article about it. Sure to be some more good responses from both sides.

2/9/2009 4:51:36 PM

In order to get a CC permit, you have to be 21 years old. There isn't a huger percentage of students on campus that are 21 and older. Though, some faculty would like the right to carry as well.

If you go through all the work to get a CWP, then why are you less trusted than anyone else with a CWP. Again, we do not advocate everyone having a gun. We advocate that those with a CWP are allowed to carry as they do so in their every day lives off campus.

Why is it that these academic institutions and places of learning keep having criminals with guns on them if they are safe places?

Plaxico is an idiot who carried a loaded weapon in his sweat pant waistband, and then pulled the trigger and shot himself in the leg. He was illegaly carrying (criminal), and guess what, he broke the law.

2/9/2009 5:00:20 PM

then i'd honestly rather see a safety program designed for emergency situations like VT implemented before a CC movement.

how the hell would anyone know what to do if something like that occurred in Harrelson? Its hard enough to evacuate that shithole without bullets flying...

2/9/2009 5:04:07 PM

how has no one brought up the statistics on violent crimes on Utah campuses?

CC is allowed virtually everywhere there (including campuses)





And as for those of you who think that this would result in 100's and 100's of guns ending up on campus, you still have to get the CC permit- I know only a couple people who are in college that have this permit, and to be honest, you wouldn't be able to tell they are.

Hell, I carry concealed everywhere I am legally allowed to, and I know most of my friends have no idea I am (I have several who would probably feel a little uncomfortable- which makes no sense to me, because the only way they would ever know it was there is if I needed to bring it out in a situation where their or my life is in danger)


^they have the emergency alert system- i don't know how the initial alert gets reported, but i was at my car 3 blocks behind hillsborough when i heard it going off "as only a test" last week and i could hear it loud and clear



[Edited on February 9, 2009 at 5:25 PM. Reason : rhe]

2/9/2009 5:21:21 PM

i think i should be able to carry i gun into a strip club

or a courthouse


you never know what kind of crazy shit might go down in there...i need to be protected

2/9/2009 5:52:08 PM

If you have any argument, or it is somewhere above, here is your answer.

From Concealedcampus.org

Arguement: Guns on campus would lead to an escalation in violent crime.
Answer: Since the fall semester of 2006, state law has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all nine public colleges in Utah. Concealed carry has been allowed at Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) since 2003 and at Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA) since 1995. After allowing concealed carry on campus for a combined total of more than eighty semesters, none of these eleven schools have seen a single resulting incident of gun violence (including suicides), a single gun accident, or a single gun theft. Likewise, none of the forty ‘right-to-carry’ states have seen a resulting increase in gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, despite the fact that licensed citizens in those states regularly carry concealed handguns in places like office buildings, movie theaters, grocery stores, shopping malls, restaurants, churches, banks, etc. Numerous studies*, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.

*“Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns,” John Lott and David Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies (v.26, no.1, pages 1-68, January 1997); “An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population,” William E. Sturdevant, September 1, 2000; Florida Department of Justice statistics, 1998; Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report,” 1998; Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September 2000; Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association


Argument: A person with a gun could 'snap' and go on a killing spree.
Answer: Contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply ‘snapping’ and becoming violent is not supported by case evidence. A Secret Service study* into school shootings concluded that school shooters do not simply snap and that a person’s downward spiral toward violence is typically accompanied by numerous warning signs.

*“Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools,” U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Education with support from the National Institute of Justice, Co-Directors Bryan Vossekuil, Marissa Reddy PhD, Robert Fein PhD, October 2000

Argument: It's possible that a gun could go off by accident.
Answer: Accidental discharges are very rare—particularly because modern firearms feature multiple safety features and because a handgun’s trigger is typically not exposed when it is concealed—and only a small fraction of accidental discharges result in injury. SCCC feels that it is wrong to deny citizens a right simply because that right is accompanied by a negligible risk.

NOTE: Only about 2% of all firearm-related deaths in the U.S. are accidental, and most of those are hunting accidents and accidents involving firearms being openly handled in an unsafe manner. A person is five times more likely to accidentally drown, five times more likely to accidentally die in a fire, 29 times more likely to die in an accidental fall, and 32 times more likely to die from accidental poisoning than to die from an accidental gunshot wound.

ADDITIONAL NOTE: The accidental discharge that occurred in the cockpit of a U.S. Airways jet, on March 22, 2008, occurred during the application of a poorly designed trigger lock, which FAA regulations require be in place during landing.

Argument: It's unlikely that allowing Concealed Carry on college campuses would help prevent a Virginia- Tech style massacre because most college students are too young to obtain a concealed handgun license.
Answer: Nineteen of the thirty-two victims of the Virginia Tech massacre were over the age of twenty-one (the minimum age to obtain a concealed handgun license in Virginia and most other states).

2/9/2009 5:53:57 PM

Argument: Colleges are emotionally volatile environments. Allowing guns on campus will turn classroom debates into crime scenes.
Answer: Before shall-issue concealed carry laws were passed throughout the United States, opponents claimed that such laws would turn disputes over parking spaces and traffic accidents into shootouts. This did not prove to be the case. The same responsible adults—age twenty-one and above—now asking to be allowed to carry their concealed handguns on college campuses are already allowed to do so virtually everywhere else. They clearly do not let their emotions get the better of them in other environments; therefore, no less should be expected of them on college campuses.

Argument: In an active shooter scenario like the one that occurred at Virginia Tech, a student of faculty member with a gun would only make things worse.
Answer: What is worse than allowing an execution-style massacre to continue uncontested? How could any action with the potential to stop or slow a deranged killer intent on slaughtering victim after victim be considered ‘worse’ than allowing that killer to continue undeterred? Contrary to what the movies might have us believe, most real-world shootouts last less than ten seconds*. Even the real Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, a shootout involving nine armed participants and a number of bystanders, lasted only about thirty seconds and resulted in only three fatalities. It is unlikely that an exchange of gunfire between an armed assailant and an armed citizen would last more than a couple of seconds before one or both parties were disabled. How could a couple of seconds of exchanged gunfire possibly be worse than a ten-minute, execution-style massacre?

*In The Line of Fire: Violence Against Law Enforcement, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, National Institute of Justice, 1997

Argument: The job of defending campuses against violent attacks should be left to the professionals.
Answer: Nobody is suggesting that concealed handgun license holders be charged with the duty of protecting campuses. What is being suggested is that adults with concealed handgun licenses be allowed to protect themselves on college campuses, the same way they’re currently allowed to protect themselves in most other unsecured locations. According to a U.S. Secret Service study* into thirty-seven school shootings, ‘Over half of the attacks were resolved/ended before law enforcement responded to the scene. In these cases the attacker was stopped by faculty or fellow students, decided to stop shooting on his own, or killed himself.’ The study found that only three of the thirty-seven school shootings researched involved shots being fired by law enforcement officers.

*“Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools,” U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Education with support from the National Institute of Justice, Co-Directors Bryan Vossekuil, Marissa Reddy PhD, Robert Fein PhD, October 2000

Argument: How are first responders supposed to tell the difference between armed civilians and armed assailants?
Answer: This hasn't been an issue with concealed handgun license holders in other walks of life for several reasons. First and foremost, real-world shootouts are typically localized and over very quickly. It's not realistic to expect police to encounter an ongoing shootout between assailants and armed civilians. Second, police are trained to expect both armed bad guys AND armed good guys—from off-duty/undercover police officers to armed civilians—in tactical scenarios. Third, concealed handgun license holders are trained to use their firearms for self-defense. They are not trained to run through buildings looking for bad guys. Therefore, the biggest distinction between the armed assailants and the armed civilians is that the armed civilians would be hiding with the crowd, and the armed assailants would be shooting at the crowd.

Argument: It is inconceivable that any logical person would believe that the answer to violence is more guns.
Answer: One might have just as easily told Edward Jenner, the man who discovered in the late eighteenth century that the cowpox virus could be used to inoculate people against smallpox, 'It is inconceivable that any logical person would believe that the answer to disease is more viruses.

Argument: The answer to bullets flying is not more bullets flying.
Answer: Actually, the answer to bullets flying is almost always more bullets flying. That’s why the police bring so many guns with them when they respond to a report of ‘shots fired.

Argument: School shootings are very rare, and college campuses are statistically very safe. There is no need to allow concealed carry on campus.
Answer: Though statistically safer than other comparable locations, college campuses play host to every type of violence found in the rest of society, from murder to assault to rape. The statistics suggest that allowing concealed carry on campus won’t hurt and might help; therefore, there is no legitimate reason not to allow it. A free society does not deny the people a right unless there is empirical evidence that granting that right will do more harm than good.

[Edited on February 9, 2009 at 5:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2009 5:54:06 PM

no offense to rednecks, but I bet a redneck wrote that

2/9/2009 8:41:07 PM

even if it was a redneck, it is a redneck backed by statistics and studies done by the various government agencies that you trust to defend your basic rights as a human.

2/9/2009 9:51:56 PM

I personally think that the idea of students carrying weapons on campus is both frightening and ridiculous. Although the second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms can't we agree that the founding fathers knew that the Constitution was not a perfect document and thus left it open for changes through amendments. We also aren't required to quarter British soldiers. Some things on paper outlive their significance and relevance. The solution to violence is not to arm more people. It is to make it harder for ANYONE to obtain weapons designed to kill. This argument is void of much common sense if you ask me. So you're banking on deterring people from attempting to cause you harm because they'll know that there's a chance you might be carrying a weapon? It's kind of like how gas stations post those signs that the employees cannot access safe and there is only so much money kept in the register. Guess what? They still get robbed. So do people with security signs and beware of dog signs. Had other people been packing at Va Tech wouldn't it have made it more difficult to identify the true assailant? And so what if someone else did have a weapon. Who's to say that he or she would have been able to get to it in time to do anything? Our tax dollars go to law enforcement to handle these things. We do not live in a vigilante society. This is not the wild wild west, every man for himself. I don't know the statistical information but I would be willing to bet that the number of people killed from gun mishaps far outweigh those people who claim that packing heat saved their life. I'd feel much safer in class knowing that the odds of someone carrying a gun are slim rather than having to ponder who in the room from me has a legal concealed weapon. I think it'd be awfully uncomfortable to wonder if someone is going to go ballistic off of some bad test scores and take some people out. When the weapon is on you and at your disposable and you have the freedom to carry it all the time I would worry about someone losing control. Even the most sane, competent individual can snap! Think of how many shouting or shoving matches could have turned into shooting sprees with everyone having heavy artillery easily accessible. I'm sorry... I would just have a really hard time entrusting college kids who can't even maturely sustain a freedom expression tunnel with guns on campus. College kids are known for impulsive, immature, risky behavior. I'm not too far removed from the campus scene so I know! Young, dumb and guns don't mix! The world is indeed a scary place. But we're not to the point yet where we need to be packing heat on campus. We may not live in Mayberry but we shouldn't opt to turn our streets into San Andreas either. If you're that concerned about your safety mace, pepper spray and taser guns are all non fatal deterrents to crime. And if you're that frightened that you feel like you need to carry a gun just to go to class then you should probably consider online classes.

2/9/2009 9:54:34 PM

Maybe some of us like to live in a world where we have a sense of trust in the decency of others and/or enjoy living a life that doesn't require violence and the means to end anothers life?

Naive, possibly, but it is a belief that many people have. All of the advocates have a belief that CC is necessary and will fight just as stridently as the opposing side.

You wont ever get a cut and dry answer and no matter the outcome someone will be upset. The reason this is such an issue at college campuses (imho) is:

a). youth, inexperience and ego (invulnerability) of students; and
b). academics have always been considered a place of higher learning for those that want to be there to learn, not socialize/party/etc. Once we changed, as a society, to a place where college is the natural progression in life (a requirement and not a privilege), that idea has been drastically altered. This point can be argued both for/against CC, each with their own merits.

I personally believe a place of academics should remain a place of academics, however the definition for a college campus is no longer strictly academics but almost a method to learn "real life". It's possible that new age campuses require all the same sorts of allowances and tolerances that are granted to the general public.

2/9/2009 9:56:12 PM

poeticwmn- You didn't read at all did you?
I believe every one of your irrational fears was addressed previously by the two long postings I made. Please read them, and look at the statistics. Your fears and emotional response are unfounded.

I have a very strong sense of trust in the decency of human beings. I also recognize that darwinism is failing in the human race. I don't have any violence in my life. I am a very trusting person. Statistically nothing bad will happen to me (too bad I have been robbed on multiple occasions, my property vandalized, and a gun pulled on me in Gboro) and I have no fear of living my every day life.
My gun is my good luck charm. When I carry it, nothing bad ever happens.

The "youth, inexperience, and ego" of students is not a reasonable argument. To carry you have to be over 21. Not everyone comes to college immediately out of high school. I teach on campus, and I have people older than me taking my courses every semester. Some faculty would also like the right to carry, but are denied so under the current laws. Places of higher learning have crime problems. Why can I defend myself when I am on hilsborough street, but not when I cross into the courtyard of the Carolina's? In real life, people have concealed weapons around them all the time.

2/9/2009 10:22:17 PM

Quote :

"a). youth, inexperience and ego (invulnerability) of students;"

this is addressed in that you must be at least 21 years old to carry a handgun, which limits most college students to their senior year. Honestly, if I can trust these people to stand armed (concealed or otherwise) next to me in line at a grocery store, who is to say that they can't be trusted sitting next to me in a lecture or a lab?


most concerns that are being raised here are not ones limited to on-campus-only situations- rather, they are concerns about the safety of guns in general. I agree that guns are dangerous- but only in the wrong hands... if you are willing to give an 18 year old fresh out of college a fully automatic gun to go defend your country, why are you then unable to trust those who have gone through all the legal steps to carry a handgun (who at the minimum have 3 more years of life experiences)?

2/9/2009 10:43:39 PM

I am definitely for CC on campus.

2/10/2009 11:09:57 AM

There is a meeting tonight of the NCSU chapter of SCCC.

7:30 PM at I Love NY Pizza.

2/10/2009 11:14:49 AM

will you all be packin heat?

2/10/2009 12:19:51 PM

As stated in the lounge, I'm for CCH on Campus. However, this SCCC group is garbage. They promote an anti-LE, pro-hero mentality and use the potential to stop an active shooter as a rallying cry. They lost all creditability w/ their reference to the OK coral. Are you kidding me?

2/10/2009 1:28:07 PM

Where do we promote and anit-LEO mentality? Nowhere.
Where do we promote a pro hero mentality? Nowhere.

We only promote the ability to protect ourselves as guaranteed by the constitution.

2/10/2009 2:39:30 PM

So if only 21+ can have a concealed weapon, couldn't a shooter just target freshmen classes?

As someone who served as an anti-terrorism officer in the military and was trained for firefights and not just popping off at targets and deer, I don't trust any kid with a gun being able to safely use his weapon in a situation like a classroom shooter.

2/10/2009 3:12:50 PM

^there are plenty of 21+ year old freshmen (who were in the military or worked before school)

and this would also apply to professors, grad students, and others employed by the university (not just students...)



has anyone suggested that the university have their own review board of who can and cannot carry (and thus they would have a full record of who might be legally bringing a handgun to campus)?

2/10/2009 4:15:56 PM

Quote :

"a gun pulled on me in Gboro"

word yo

2/10/2009 5:23:48 PM

Can we make a stipulation to this carry on campus rule? I only want the people getting A's to be able to carry. I have no interest in arming the idiots in my classes who can barely pass. This would encourage kids to do better in school.

2/10/2009 6:14:39 PM

you can't carry guns in gov't buildings anyway. you wanna just walk around with your gun in the brickyard?

2/10/2009 9:20:24 PM

We can't carry on campus either. Obviously, the law would have to be amended.

Here is a terrible article, that I think was written by a 4 year old:
http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/dudes-wear-holsters-at-state-this-week-to-protest-lack-of-guns/

2/10/2009 9:26:09 PM

how else are we gonna keep the king of england off of our campus?

2/10/2009 10:06:41 PM

Hello all,

A fellow SCCC member pointed me towards this thread, and this board in general. As an officer of the NCSU chapter of the SCCC, I always enjoy seeing the issue of concealed carry debated. Like any issue, a healthy discussion goes a long way in seeing where everyone comes from. I'm posting here in response to many of the comments I see here in this thread. Some of you are opposed to the idea of a citizen owning or carrying a firearm period, let alone concealed on campus. Oftentimes this is either a deep-seated opinion, or an opinion taken simply because one has never had the opportunity to shoot or handle a firearm, and thus fear what they do not know. That's not something a few lines of witty prose is going to undo, so I won't touch on that.

I do wish to speak to those of you who are for concealed carry, but not on a college campus. First of all, let me make clear that the SCCC wishes to legalize concealed carry on college, and college only, campuses. We do not wish to be vigilantes, or to take over for law enforcement. We simply believe that a campus police force cannot be in every single classroom, in every single building, at any given time. Consequently, we want to have the same right to self-defense that we have off campus.

Many of you believe that college students are either too immature, too emotionally charged, or too incompetant to be trusted with a concealed weapon. Frankly, I think that such thoughts are unwarranted. After all, many of you who stated that you are pro-firearm, or pro-concealed carry, are college students. Do you consider yourselves immature, or incompetant? As a college student, I certainly don't categorize myself as either of those. It's true that some of our peers can't be trusted with pointy objects, lest they hurt themselves, but that's not indicitive of college students as a whole. If we are to judge the whole via a few bad apples, why not judge college students by the ones whom have served, or will serve their country? The ones who are community volunteers, the ones who own their own businesse?

Society as a whole has its fair share of ne'r-do-wells, but statistics show that only a tiny fraction (much smaller than the general population) of permit holders ever commit a violent crime. In a world full of screw-ups and shady characters, how is this possible? Simple - because those fellow student of yours whom you place no trust it? They aren't applying for concealed carry permits. How many ditzy sorority girls, 'feel-good' potheads, etc. (no offense), out there actually own a pistol, let alone have a concealed carry permit? They can already carry off campus, yet for some reason they don't feel the need to pack at malls, parks, McDonalds, etc. Why would they bother to start once it's allowed on campus? As far as those students who already carry off-campus, what magical barrier has been erected on our campus that turns them into raving idiots, should they cross its threshold? In short, classifying college kids as too stupid or immature to accept responsibility, based off the behavior of drunken fraternity members or that shady kid with the smoky room is not fair the the vast majority of mature, law-abiding kids - you yourself included.

Another point I saw brought up was the lack of training to engage in a firefight. Let me be clear - I wholeheartedly agree that college student have no business engaging in tactical engagments, room clearing, and other such activities. The beauty of concealed carry, however, is that we are not calling upon students to do these things. If a fellow student of mine decides to stand up and open up on my class, I don't need any specialized training to take him out - basic marksmanship, which is a requisite for obtaining a permit, is all that is needed. As was pointed out earlier, this is not Hollywood - there are no ten-minute long shootouts involving seven magazine reloads and whatnot. Students are not setting up a base of fire while others maneuver around and conduct a double envelopment. Again, concealed carry is not a license to be a one-man fire team, it's for the defense of one's self and of those in your immediate vicinity.

This friday, we will have SCCC members walking around the brickyard, who will be happy to answer any questions you may have, and will have a pamphlet you can take a read on your own. I myself am happy to discuss the issue (in a civilized manner, of course), and I look forward to more debate in the future.

2/10/2009 10:08:13 PM

An article from N&O in chapel hill.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1049442.html

Another link to wral, and the video is online.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/4513014/

2/10/2009 11:39:25 PM

There are a lot of good comments after the articles in every place that has been linked.

2/11/2009 12:46:17 AM

Quote :

"I'd prefer that colleges continue to remain weapon-free places where I can feel safe,"

Notice your choice of words... "FEEL safe". Feeling safe is very very different from BEING safe. There are those of us who would like to BE safe and BE responsible for our own defense, rather than just FEEL like we are protected.

Quote :

"i think i should be able to carry i gun into a strip club or a courthouse"

The difference between a courthouse and a college campus... a courthouse has restricted and usually guarded entrances where all who enter have to be screened for ANY weapons. There is no such security for a college campus, which has effectively infinite unguarded entrances.

The way I see it, if a building/place is going to prohibit legal CCW, then there should be a means to ensure that EVERYONE entering the place is also unarmed (with appropriate armed trained security).

If you provide THAT kind of protection for a University campus, maybe then we can stop pushing for campus CCW.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 2:48 AM. Reason : ]

2/11/2009 2:21:21 AM

who put a gun-nut soap box on the front page?

2/11/2009 8:00:48 AM

Quote :

"TOTIN' COWBOY HEROES"

2/11/2009 10:20:57 AM

Quote :

"The way I see it, if a building/place is going to prohibit legal CCW, then there should be a means to ensure that EVERYONE entering the place is also unarmed (with appropriate armed trained security). If you provide THAT kind of protection for a University campus, maybe then we can stop pushing for campus CCW."

that works for me.

2/11/2009 2:29:19 PM

Our story and people participating in the story have made the news all over NC.
There are pictures of people with empty holsters around UNCC, UNC, and NCSU.
The story is also being mirrored in VA news outlets by students there.
There are 12 page threads in some Charlotte area forums, 175 comments on the WRAL page, and dozens of mentions throughout many news outlets.

2/11/2009 6:41:53 PM

words

2/11/2009 7:03:28 PM

I support concealed carry on campus

2/11/2009 9:42:07 PM

^ me too. Especially since i just got my ccw.

2/11/2009 9:57:19 PM

If you need a gun to feel safe then you have bigger issues.

2/11/2009 11:17:04 PM

No one 'needs' a gun to feel safe.

A firearm is another tool that can be used to defend oneself if the need arises.
A firearm is an equalizer if someone is being attacked by multiple assailants or a huge disparity of force.
A firearm is something that is legally carried by 1 in 70 adults in North Carolina, but 0 in 70 on campus.



[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 11:34 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2009 11:33:31 PM

I support it.

2/12/2009 12:38:23 AM

I am for CCW on campus.

I believe 90% of the people who argue against this have no clue what they are talking about (and those that do, I respect your opinion. You know who you are, you have done the research and under stand how to argue intelligently, thank you). It really bugs me when people try to argue and do not have their facts straight.

Some of you have brought up valid points. If we could turn all guns into flowers and butterflies, and we could all just get along, the world would be a better place. Lets be honest here, most criminals do not get guns legally, so making it harder to get guns (legally, like my more stringent screening and stuff) will have no effect on the people buying guns from the people who smuggle them in and sell them on the black market. The only real solution is getting rid of all guns worldwide, which is impossible.

People for concealed carry by students are not saying that every student should go get a gun, but that students that already concealed carry should be allowed to on campus as well. People who have taken the class know the laws, know the correct use of a firearm, and have passed FBI background checks for sanity and criminal charges. Lets be honest, The bad guys can get guns onto campus easily, why not let the good guys (ya know, the ones who leave their guns at home because its the law) have their guns on campus too.

We are not "gun totin hillbillies", we are normal people who would like to be prepared for the worst, but hope for the best. If we are legally allowed to carry guns down hillsborough street, why not let us cross that imaginary line to campus.

Whoever called people for concealed carry "rednecks" is an ignorant dumbass. Your insulting of people has no basis in the argument. It serves no purpose but to make you look like more of an ignorant dumbass.

++++1 to whoever said only students who make good grades should be allowed to carry.

2/12/2009 12:42:47 AM

I am tired of hearing the PUSSY argument that "OMG I DON'T wANT TO SIT NEXT TO A GUY WHO BROUGHT HIS GUN TO CLASS"

Does it not occur to this people that those really intent on doing harm or up to no good already take little respect

for the law and will carry their gun regardless. The guy sitting next to you in your BUS 201 class could easily be packing
heat right now and you would never know.

2/12/2009 8:36:49 AM

I snicker at 'debate' whenever this topic comes up. It's always debated logically from one side, and a bunch of kneejerk mental masturbation from the other.

2/12/2009 11:52:57 AM

NCSU chapter of SCCC will be on the Brickyard from 11:00am till 3:00pm on Friday (tomorrow)

Please come out and show your support, or if you disagree then come out and we can have a nice rational discussion on the issue.

Lets end this Empty Holster protest on a positive note.


___________________________________________________________________________

I was eating lunch at I Love NY Pizza and a lady came up to me and asked how the protest was going, and if I foresaw the laws being changed in the future. She told me that we had a lot of support from the people of Raleigh.
___________________________________________________________________________

I at lunch with a former professor today. She was very supportive of the movement, and we spent 30 minutes just talking about what we hope to achieve.
___________________________________________________________________________

I am now the State Director of North Carolina for SCCC.
My email contact for that is NorthCarolina@ConcealedCampus.org

2/12/2009 12:52:12 PM

almost didnt recognize you on the news, been a long time

2/12/2009 4:18:02 PM

Quote :

"It's always debated logically from one side, and a bunch of kneejerk mental masturbation from the other. "

I suppose the side that debates logically are the supporters. Since the argument of the non-supporters 90% of the time is not logical and spurs from emotionally charged fear of some red neck who after paying $texas, going through hours of training, and filing a ton of paper work decides to go crazy. The other 10% is a false premise that all citizens are happy law-abiding citizens and thus since NCSU FORBIDS concealed carry; everybody obeys.

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 4:56 PM. Reason : a]

2/12/2009 4:56:11 PM

everybody ive ever known with a ccp is a responsible, law abiding citizen...no fucking sarchasm there either

i do not own a gun but let me be the first to say that if some crazed maniac with an ILLEGAL weapon starts firing, im fucking yelling at the guy who is sitting next to me to cap that freak

[Edited on February 12, 2009 at 6:14 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2009 6:13:52 PM

I wasn't sure what to think, but you guys are giving very good points and real statistics. I would support you guys. Also, I believe many woman carry guns for safety to, just in case a person tried to rape them. Look in the police blotter, how many times has a suspicious person been lurkin on campus or someone got robbed. So campus is not that safe people, just look at all the homeless people wandering right across form it.

Also people talk here about not wanting some young naive, emotional kid carry a gun, and that we should leave it to the professionals. The police can't always be trusted either to not get emotional. How many unnessary beatens have occur from older "wiser" cops... Rodney King.. and others.

Hell my girlfriend carrys a nice sharp jacknife with her everywhere. For safety, its concealed and no one thinks of that.

2/12/2009 9:42:15 PM

I'd trust a 21 yr old guy in my class earning a college education more to carry a gun versus some backwards immature punk 21 yr old working at the bowling alley packing heat.

2/13/2009 12:08:55 AM

http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.6423/online_exclusives/students_object_to_concealed_weapons_policy-1.1374972

2/13/2009 10:42:31 AM

I support it, because I have yet to see one valid argument not to allow CCH, especially in the face of the overwhelming evidence for it posted in this thread.

2/13/2009 10:53:15 AM

I am for the concealed carry on campus and I know this might be a sore subject, but the VT shootings... Two insane idiots that walked around campus, who killed a few people in the dorm, then came back to campus nearly an hour later and killed close to 33 people (total) might have been stopped way before that if students were carrying. The only reason they were on the rampage so long was because police force wasn't able to respond as quickly as the shooters were evading. Students, being in the thick of it all, were right there defensless...that is a problem.

My thought is that most of the causalities could have been prevented, if students were able to defend themselves, hince I said most not all. I believe that if CC was emplemented that we would prevent future shootings from taking place.

2/13/2009 12:09:50 PM

ATTN POSTERS: Before you continue to post your incorrect, unfounded, idiotic thoughts...

1.) Learn the law
2.) Learn what CC is
3.) Learn what it takes to get a CCP and who gets them

After completing those tasks, post an original, thoughtful, sensible, and supported thought.


1.) "Whatever happened to the police?" Yeh, what happened to them? Because all crimes are stopped by the police before someone gets hurt or killed... Cops do a great job but they can't be everywhere all the time. NC allows its citizens to OC and CC because it is a citizen's right to defend him or her self. For some reason, some bozos thought it was a good idea to disarm these LAW ABIDING citizens in certain areas. Such laws were written without the truth of guns and crimes in mind.

2.) "I'm scared, some guy in my class has a gun." First of all - even if CCoC became legal, I'd hope you'd call the cops if you saw a gun on campus. - I would. Except for maybe the rare, and I mean RARE chance it was inadvertently revealed, the only reason you would ever see a CC'er with their gun out is because they are about to use it in self-defense. Thus, if the guy beside you in class is packing - you'd never know. I bet you're not worried about people with guns out in public and as it stands now, there are a lot more people in public with guns than on campus... You're point holds no water.

3.) "What's the point of the holsters" Read the thread, it was explained twice.

4.) "CC'er could be a shooter" A citizen with a legal CCP is 5 TIMES LESS likely to take part in a violent crime. Also, if someone is intent on shooting up some place, I doubt they'll go through the trouble to get a CCP and have that lovely paper trail leading right up to them. CC'ers are not itchy fingered cowboys, the thug from down Western who wants your wallet is. CC'ers don't randomly shoot people - they know the risks and consequences - they won't shoot unless they have to - refer to use of deadly force laws. Believe me, no one, even cops wants to deal with the consequences of shooting someone. The financial and emotional consequences are not fun.

5.) Keep campus "disarmed" - This logic makes no sense. NO PUBLIC CAMPUS is disarmed, especially NCSU. So you would rather have armed criminals on campus only? YOu need to remember who will use a gun against you (assuming you're not about to/are committing a crime that warrants deadly force). Hint: It won't be a legal CC'er. Again, if someone wants to enter campus armed, they can and will do so, no matter what the law says - and you're pulling to be on the losing side of this? Strange...

6.) "I feel better..." Personally, I don't care how you feel. I care about detering, preventing, and stopping crime if/when able/necessary. I care about my safety which is unjustly put in jeopardy when I step foot onto campus, where safety is far from guaranteed.

7.) "Support CC everywhere but campus" - You are either lying or are grossly uneducated. What makes campus so much different then anywhere else in public - not one person has had an answer for this. The age thing is bogus - must be 21+ to CC and there are plenty of 21 year olds already CCing in public - you don't see any problems there, do you?

8.)

Quote :

"It's not the crossing of the imaginary line, it's who is within that imaginary line. Young, naive, stressed out, unsure people like college students are probably the worst people to group together tightly and then hand guns to."

I don't even know where to begin with this pile of garbage. CC'ers aren't the young, naive, etc type. They know their responsibility and they don't take it lightly. Again, these same people CC off campus and you don't see them shooting up places. AND WHO IS HANDING OUT GUNS? LEARN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST.

9.) "promoting 18-22 year olds to carry" HOLY CRAP LEARN WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST.

10.) "Ease of getting a CC" WHAT? 8 hour course, safety lesson, shooting demonstration, 2 background checks, mental health check, finger prints, registration, etc. It's not impossible but it's not like they hand these out to just anyone. Sure, this system isn't perfect, but the statistics about crimes and CC'ers doesn't lie - CC'ers aren't the ones committing these crimes.

11.) "Feel safe in classroom" - So in a large area, where law abiding citizens are stripped of their right to defend themselves, and by default, allowing violent criminals to carry and use weapons makes you feel safer?

12.) "Trust of others" - Sure, I'll trust the guys who nearly killed a family member, mugged 3 friends, shot 32 people at VT, decapitated a girl at VT, the same type of people who shot up columbine, the MS-13 guys who are so kind, the murders and rapists living around us. Citizens have the right to defend their life if and when needed. I bet you have fire extinguishers, alarms, etc, just in case.

13.) "Place of academics" - CCoC wouldn't change that... so what's your point

14.) "SCCC = Anti-LE, Pro-hero" - What in the hell are you thinking? Quit posting lies and your unfounded brain farts.

I'm tired of typing now. kthxbai








[Edited on February 13, 2009 at 9:37 PM. Reason : grammar, etc.]

2/13/2009 9:14:36 PM

^good posting

2/13/2009 9:28:20 PM

give us us guns

2/13/2009 10:04:11 PM

Hope today went well, was planning to swing by the brickyard this afternoon but work ran lat(er) than planned.

2/13/2009 10:57:09 PM

I carried on campus for 6 years and no one ever noticed, and the one time I had a situation come up, a whino on hboro tried to grab my wallet while I was buying a hot dog, it was not a threat to my life, I go him in an arm lock, took him down to the ground and held him until the police got there. That was my first instinct, the training did very well, and I did not even consider pulling my gun because at no point during the conflict did it escalate to that point.

You would be surprised how many people actually do carry on campus regardless of the laws, like they say, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

2/14/2009 12:38:30 PM

I want to start off by saying I am for CC on campus, however I believe that there should be tougher regulations for it. In order to complete the safety course, currently you only have to be able to hit 21 of 30 rounds fired at a target. 10 rounds from 9 feet, 10 rounds from 15 feet, and 10 rounds from 21 feet. This means that someone could theoretically hit 10 from 9', 10 from 15' and only hit 1 out of 10 shots from 21 feet and still pass the course. This is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever fired a half way decent hand gun should know how easy this is to do. I know handguns are used for close range shots, but I believe these distances should be changed to at least 25, 30, and 35 feet, if not even further away than that. I don't want to be sitting in a class when someone with a gun starts shooting, and then someone with a CCed that only shot 1 of 10 shots from 21 feet, starts shooting back.
Also if CC is allowed on campus, I believe the students/faculty/staff should have to sign a form of some kind with the university, so they would know who is packing and who isn't. Limiting it to students with a GPA of above say 2.75 or something like that would be a good idea to.

12 NCAC 09F .0105
(7) administer a proficiency examination which shall demonstrate that the student is competent in the actual firing and safe handling of a handgun. Such examination shall include the following:

(a) The student shall fire 30 rounds of ammunition at a bulls-eye or silhouette target from three, five and seven yard distances;

(b) At each yard distance the student shall fire ten rounds;

(c) 21 of the 30 rounds fired by the student must hit the target.

2/14/2009 1:00:18 PM

it's not hard even with a draw and reload at those distances to hit all 30 in a tight group

2/14/2009 1:29:29 PM

^^that makes no sense at all. You aren't so worried about someone's ability off campus but only when on campus? And you don't have to be an expert or jump through hoops to be effective with a handgun. If you're going to make that argument, it applies to all CC'ers; it makes no sense that you wouldn't be concerned about my shooting abilities off campus but would be on campus.

2/14/2009 3:04:35 PM

This is a hopeless, pointless argument. The people against it are seemingly damned and determined to do whatever it takes to not even understand the issue or what the other side proposes, much less evaluate it with logic and critical thinking rather than emotion.

I got about halfway through the first page and just gave up. Nobody is talking about "handing guns to" the student population. Nobody is talking about 18-20 year olds. Almost nobody is arguing that people should be able to keep guns in their dorm rooms (although I know I kept my guns in my fraternity house for the couple of years I lived there. I was just discrete about it).



[Edited on February 14, 2009 at 4:06 PM. Reason : asdf]

2/14/2009 3:54:03 PM

Quote :

"Lets be honest here, most criminals do not get guns legally, so making it harder to get guns (legally, like my more stringent screening and stuff) will have no effect on the people buying guns from the people who smuggle them in and sell them on the black market."

that's true that most criminals don't get guns legally. but talk to pretty much every other country on the planet to see whether making guns more difficult to legally purchase has any effect on gun violence.

i don't have much of a problem with CCW on campus or otherwise. i have a problem with the number of guns we have in this country in the first place (and how quickly that number is increasing).

[Edited on February 15, 2009 at 9:00 AM. Reason : .]

2/15/2009 8:59:40 AM

^yeh, because criminals don't have their own market, the Internet can't be used to purchase arms illegally, and our borders are air-tight.

Making firearms more difficult to legally purchase mostly harms law abiding citizens.

2/15/2009 10:37:12 AM

thank you mr strawman.

anyway. it's hard to put the cat back in the bag. but the truth is that most criminals steal their weapons from citizens. no need to go out of their way to smuggle some shit.

there are just a lot of guns in this country and that (helps) lead to a lot of deadly violence that you just don't see in most other countries in the world.

2/15/2009 10:52:01 AM

so you want to make it harder for law abiding citizens to get firearms, which leaves criminals with their guns and other ways to obtain them. sounds like you want to disarm law abiding citizens and leave them defenseless.

2/15/2009 11:29:00 AM

i actually didn't say anything of the sort. but thanks for trying.

i don't claim to have the answers here. i'm just saying that there are a lot of guns out there and that seems to be at least one cause of the much higher murder rates in this country than in most any other developed nation.

2/15/2009 11:43:13 AM

so what's your point then? that murders use guns? that criminals steal? since guns can be stolen no one should have them? that's dangerous territory there.

2/15/2009 12:40:02 PM

Quote :

"i don't claim to have the answers here."

then why open your mouth in the first place?

2/15/2009 5:39:24 PM

Quote :

"MaximaDrvr All American 6708 Posts user info edit comment No one 'needs' a gun to feel safe. A firearm is another tool that can be used to defend oneself if the need arises. A firearm is an equalizer if someone is being attacked by multiple assailants or a huge disparity of force. A firearm is something that is legally carried by 1 in 70 adults in North Carolina, but 0 in 70 on campus. [Edited on February 11, 2009 at 11:34 PM. Reason : .] 2/11/2009 11:33:31 PM"

thanks for proving my point, bed wetter

2/15/2009 7:26:38 PM

^That doesn't even make sense.

2/15/2009 10:17:47 PM

Sense, on my Tdub? No wai!

2/15/2009 11:43:13 PM

I support concealed carry.

I'm hopefully (as soon as he replies to my text message, I'll know) going to the shooting range with MaximaDrvr this weekend.

2/16/2009 11:33:50 AM

^^^^ what point?

2/16/2009 1:47:21 PM

^^Yeah, we are.

2/16/2009 3:18:29 PM

I don't know about this. I'm for concealed carry not on a college campus or in a school. I guess I just weigh the actual likelihood of criminal deterrence against potential liability and can't see a way for concealed carry to win. Is Colorado State the only school that allows concealed carry?

2/16/2009 10:22:15 PM

The entire state of Utah allows CCoC

2/16/2009 10:28:03 PM

100 down

can we hit 1000?

yes

2/16/2009 10:58:23 PM

2/16/2009 11:11:02 PM

1241 views as well. That is in the top 20 I believe.

2/16/2009 11:13:54 PM

Quote :

"I don't know about this. I'm for concealed carry not on a college campus or in a school. I guess I just weigh the actual likelihood of criminal deterrence against potential liability and can't see a way for concealed carry to win. Is Colorado State the only school that allows concealed carry?"

Again, before posting these unfounded blanket statements and having this belief - learn the facts of CCoC and then if you still don't agree with it, post your thoughts and founded reasons of why it shouldn't be allowed.

If you don't support it because, you just don't support, then you are wasting yours and our time by posting and in the end, your opinion doesn't really mean much since you basically have no legitimate say in the argument.

2/17/2009 5:46:37 AM

Quote :

"I don't know about this. I'm for concealed carry not on a college campus or in a school. I guess I just weigh the actual likelihood of criminal deterrence against potential liability and can't see a way for concealed carry to win."

So you're against CC everywhere then? You gave no reason as to why carrying on a campus is any different from carrying anywhere else.

2/17/2009 6:11:56 AM

Quote :

"Your entire argument is based off of emotional what-ifs, and has zero base in logic or law."

Yeah and fantasizing about saving campus from a scary minority with glorious guns-a-blazin' is not an emotional what-if.

2/17/2009 11:41:24 AM

^yet another emotion based response with zero factual information

2/17/2009 3:18:13 PM

^

and

are we all running scared because our buildings have fire alarms, fire exits, and fire extinguishers?

OH NO! SOMETHING BAD MAY HAPPEN AND I'M PREPARED FOR IT!

2/17/2009 4:07:00 PM

the "saving campus" thing is a red herring. the real issue is having the right to defend one's self

2/17/2009 5:09:36 PM

I live in fear unless I have my gun.

2/17/2009 11:06:48 PM

Quote :

"So you're against CC everywhere then? You gave no reason as to why carrying on a campus is any different from carrying anywhere else."

Did you even read the statement you quoted? I'll break it down. I said I'm not for CC on a campus or in a school. No where did I state I was against it anywhere else. The reason why is directly after that. It's a two sentence statement. I think the potential liability far outweighs the likelihood of criminal deterrence.

2/18/2009 8:54:05 AM

What potential liability? How is it different than anywhere else? That is the point.


The next empty holster protest will take place APRIL 20-24. This will be a national event.
There is going to be an empty holster protest at the capitol on Saturday the 25th. Mark your calendars now.
More info at a later date.

2/18/2009 9:17:47 AM

^thanks

^^what liability? What is so much different about the brickyard & the sidewalk on Hillsborough. How do I change, as a person CC'ing from off campus to on campus?

And it is more than potential deterrence - it is the right to self defense & the chance of stopping a crime - which applies both on and off campus.

So if your argument is that liability outweighs deterrence/right to self defense/stopping crime then you have the U.S. Supreme Court and countless statistics to prove your argument is invalid. Not to mention, this same concern would apply to both on and off campus so it wouldn't make sense to use this argument in one place but not in the other - in other words, if this is your argument, then you must not be for CC anywhere, as was stated previously, since your argument would apply anywhere CC is legal

And we are talking about CC'ing on college campuses - don't bring other schools into this.



[Edited on February 18, 2009 at 9:39 AM. Reason : .]

2/18/2009 9:24:58 AM

guns + drunk college kids = brilliant idea

2/19/2009 4:31:25 PM

posting without any information on what is being proposed and making outlandish assumptions = brilliant idea

2/19/2009 5:12:12 PM

Quote :

"guns + drunk college kids = brilliant ide"

i would rather an educated college kid from a family and the prospects of a successful career have a gun over an ignorant redneck high school dropout rolling around in his truck carrying his concealed weapon.

2/19/2009 10:58:00 PM

Why?

2/20/2009 8:44:27 AM

There's no way this will/should ever happen.

2/20/2009 9:00:48 AM

Quote :

"post an original, thoughtful, sensible, and supported thought. "

I don't understand why it is so hard to do this. I've seen the people that are pro-CCoC post their thoughts with supporting evidence, but have yet to see it from an anti-CCoC. I am asking you guys to post something that is supported by factual information, but yet all you can post is your opinion, which I am willing to bet has no supporting information. I also bet that those of you posting without support are not reading what is being proposed and why.



[Edited on February 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2009 9:18:22 AM

Guns on campus, right?

2/20/2009 9:36:42 AM

There's more to it than that. Not to mention that there are already guns on campus...

And why is campus so much different than the rest of public?

Before you answer this make sure you read what has already been said

2/20/2009 9:48:36 AM

My question is:

If you're pulling off the concealed carry thing (and well), then why even mention what you're doing?

Isn't the whole point to not let anyone see that you have a killing weapon?

Just .... shhhhhhhhh...

2/20/2009 1:17:36 PM

ummm... when you CC it's not like you're going around yelling "HEY I HAVE A GUN!" So I'm not sure what your point is...



[Edited on February 20, 2009 at 1:23 PM. Reason : who is saying that CCers are "mentioning" that they have a self-defense tool...]

2/20/2009 1:23:07 PM

I'm not against your constitutional rights, I just think an armed student population would cause more incidents than it prevents.

2/20/2009 2:03:32 PM

^ok, but that doesn't hold true in public.... CCers are not increasing crime in public, in fact, crime tends to decrease where CC is allowed. Also, the same people already carrying off-campus would carry on campus, so why do they now all of a sudden change? Why would they commit a crime only on-campus?

Many students are already armed off-campus, so again, what changes on campus? And don't forget you have to be 21 to CC - it's not like the entire campus would be armed/guns wouldn't be "handed out" as some uninformed poster stated.

[Edited on February 20, 2009 at 2:10 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2009 2:08:10 PM

http://www.carryconcealed.net/man-hurt-when-gun-blasts-toilet

2/20/2009 2:51:33 PM

Quote :

"If you're pulling off the concealed carry thing (and well), then why even mention what you're doing? "

umm, because it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a permit

and it's illegal to carry with a permit on campus

and the penalties are even harsher if you break gun laws while holding a CCP

Quote :

"guns + drunk college kids = brilliant idea "

How do you continue to fail to grasp that the college kids in question ALREADY HAVE GUNS, and they ALREADY CARRY THEM? furthermore, you already can't carry if you're consuming alcohol, and that isn't a problem anywhere else, and who in the hell gets drunk on campus, anyway (other than kids in the dorms, most of whom aren't old enough to have a handgun or CCP, and who nobody is arguing should be allowed to have guns in dorms EVEN IF they were of legal age.)

If you remove the people who don't even understand the argument, there doesn't seem to be a lot of people against this.

2/20/2009 4:09:17 PM

Quote :

"If you remove the people who don't even understand the argument, there doesn't seem to be a lot of people against this."

2/20/2009 5:07:55 PM

Quote :

"If you're pulling off the concealed carry thing (and well), then why even mention what you're doing?"

Some people, unlike Leroy taking your walletat gunpoint as you leave Doak field,believe in laws. They will not bring their
gun to campus b.c they have respect for them.

Quote :

"guns + drunk college kids = brilliant idea"

I have been to two college parties where guns were pulled. Considering most students live off campus past sophmore year and nearly

all 21+ students live off campus than these "drunk college kids" will have their guns legally given they feel the need
to carry it if they have their CCP. Perhaps you should refrain from attending any off campus college party. Since OMG
a drunk college kid maybe have his gun there AHHH RUN FOR THE HILLSSS.

The only people getting drunk on campus are freshman and grad students. For the former if they are packing heat than they
are already breaking the law since they are not old enough to have a pistol much less a CCP.

2/20/2009 5:12:59 PM

I am a college student. I drink alcohol. I own a gun. I carry a gun with me (where legal). I haven't shot anyone.

[Edited on February 20, 2009 at 5:27 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2009 5:27:08 PM

Quote :

" Isn't the whole point to not let anyone see that you have a killing weapon? "

Do i need a permit to just walk around with a gun plainly visible? Cause if there's a permit for that I want it.

If its a question of deterrence, I think a visible weapon would do a better job than an concealed one.

2/20/2009 6:07:42 PM

^NC is an open carry state - you can OPEN carry everywhere without a permit, except at places such as:

-educational property (colleges, gradeschools, daycare, educational hospitals, churches with school, etc)
- state property
- federal property
- places where alcohol is sold and consumed
- places that charge admission
- places that post a sign stating "No Weapons" (this doesn't apply to signs that say "No Concealed Weapons" however, be prepared to ask to leave if you OC in such a place.

there's more, but you can read about it.

And you don't have to OC to deter crime.

open carry = not concealed - have it on your hip in a OWB holster; for vehicles, have it on the dash or front seat in plain view - never cover it up.

again, there's more to it than that - this is a starting point.





[Edited on February 20, 2009 at 6:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2009 6:17:38 PM

Quote :

"^NC is an open carry state - you can OPEN carry everywhere without a permit, except at places such as: -educational property (colleges, gradeschools, daycare, educational hospitals, churches with school, etc) - state property - federal property - places where alcohol is sold and consumed - places that charge admission - places that post a sign stating "No Weapons" (this doesn't apply to signs that say "No Concealed Weapons" however, be prepared to ask to leave if you OC in such a place."

You listed the places where you are not able to carry concealed weapons and open carry weapons....the course goes over this in detail. First off, for the benefit of the overall society, I believe that a class 1 citizens (cc owners are referred to as class 1 citizens by most law enforcement. Cops know that you are law abiding citizens and actually give people like this breaks on speeding tickets in most cases), not criminals, need to have the right to conceal carry everywhere. First off, time and time again this has been shown in numerous studies to reduce crime in areas. The 'NO CONCEALED WEAPONS' stickers are coming off of stores at an alarming rate. This gives potential robbers far more variables when committing a crime such as armed robbery.

Example: When conceal carry was introduced in 1995, rest stops had this no conceal carry weapons. This opens up a major bullseye for armed robbers, since they know you won't have a gun inside. When NC state government changed the laws and allowed cc inside these places, armed robbery in rest stops DROPPED BY AN ALARMING 73%!!!!! This is why laws are changing rapidly in favor of CC.

CC and Open Carry are by far two seperate things....You are going to get the biggest shitstorm everywhere you go if you are going to be open carrying a pistol. People call cops when they see a gun regardless of any circumstances....no badge&uniform + gun = 911(its just the society we live in ). City to city, county to county, district to district, etc. open carry laws are different. You can't walk down hillsborough street with a 12 guage (same as a pistol with open carry laws). In modern society, in order to keep the people satisfied that are scared of firearms, open carry should be regulated, where as cc should not.

CC permit holders are NOT allowed to let any part of their concealed weapon to be shown to the open public. When it is able to be seen, CC goes out the window and open carry laws should then regulate it.

Most of you guys understand what the government will reinforce soon....there are a few idiots on the thread, and this post is mainly directed towards them. CC people know that they are going to be held responsible for their actions and have gone through thorough background and mental evaluation checks within SBI and other law enforcement agencies. In addition you have to be over 21. In most institutions, this gives mainly instructors and responsible adults to carry on campus. By 21 years old, the failures have already been weeded out of college (in most cases).

So in general, all I ask is those people taking an illogical approach towards cc, will review all the laws and the statistics before making such a harsh and unjustified argument. And if you still make that stupid justification, it doesn't matter, we have the majority on our side. As always, we have guns and don't want to be a victim, you leave yourself open to victimization (Colbert needs to make that a word), we WIN .




[Edited on February 22, 2009 at 12:12 AM. Reason : .]

2/21/2009 11:57:07 PM

Just wanted to mention something about how I greatly support MaximaDrvr's post about VT.


The shooter had time to reload all his clips 4 (NOT ONCE, NOT TWICE, NOT THREE TIMES; 4 FUCKING TIMES). He passed approximately 200 people that could of potentially stopped his shooting at some point after he had fired the first shot, if one of them had only had a Conceal Carry Handgun.

Just more detail, he stepped on a guys head after shooting him in the leg. He then reloaded the gun and shot him execution style in the side of the head....that is not killing, IT'S MURDER. There were 5 able bodied people that saw him do this, first hand eyewitness accounts (If only one had been a CC). These are some of the details the media didnt widely view as something the general public needed to know about the shooting. Only was released on unbiased media outlets and police reports.

Yet another example....I hope this sways just one more person to justify switching their opinion towards CC permit allowance. Would you want CC allowed if you were about to be executed and someone could intervene, or do you just want to roll over and take it for the team?

Make the LOGICAL decision, and the one best for our society as a whole. If California allowed CC imagine how much gang violence in LA would be reduced (What responsible citizen wouldn't mind doing away with a few pieces of shit that are on welfare out gangbanging and shoot at/ committ felonius acts against innocent public? Another topic that could easily get me to write multiple pages. I have a simple solution that doesn't require all of this legal system/gang interventionist. I'll give you four hints that are parts of the puzzle; slug, powder, primer, shell. Get my drift?). Hence, why it is just prime hunting grounds for criminals/gangbangers to operate with less variables against them. For someone who doesn't appreciate CC or responsible gun ownership, drive through LA or DC and realize what the abcense of CC permits does to a community. We live in a utopia compared to places like that, so stop your bitching. It automatically makes the criminal the predator and the responsible citizens the prey.

I hope spending all this time typing out a logical reply to this post, will limit the amount of stupidity that will be posted in the future on this topic.

Props: MaximaDrvr

[Edited on February 22, 2009 at 12:55 AM. Reason : .]

2/22/2009 12:34:42 AM

Oh...last thing...kind of got caught in a rant and need to stop.

Obama helped eliminate gun ownership in inner city Chicago, yet is shocked why violent crime jumped 24% in Chicago over the past 6 months. Shocking!?!? Wake up.

I believe in quite a few things that Obama stands for, but he is screwing the pooch on this one. This returns to points made in the last two posts.

Responsible gun ownership HELPS to maintain a system of checks and balances on the street. A democracy, not anarchy.

2/22/2009 1:06:01 AM

Quote :

"You listed the places where you are not able to carry concealed weapons and open carry weapons"

Well... yeh. The guy asked about open carry, so I answered about open carry. And the places where you can't OC are the places you can't CC as well, so I'm not sure what your point is...

[Edited on February 22, 2009 at 9:14 AM. Reason : .]

2/22/2009 9:10:14 AM

Just there are more places (by a very large margin) that you can carry conceal vs those where you can open carry.

2/22/2009 10:54:30 AM

actually, if you follow the law, you can OC in more places.

2/22/2009 11:05:24 AM

but, like i said before, you will have the cops called...

...they will come investigate. waste a lot of time. and give you a lot of hassle...

where can you open carry that you can't cc with the correct permits?

2/22/2009 11:18:02 AM

Banks/ Financial Institutions, you can open carry if they do not post 'no weapons', however state law bans CC in them. Some other areas carry similar laws. Like a place with a 'no concealed weapons' sign. You can be asked to leave while OC'ing, but you may legally enter with a gun on your hip.

2/22/2009 12:56:34 PM

Banks

2/22/2009 1:01:12 PM

Yeh, you need to do a little research on OC. You can OC everywhere in NC except for the places I listed (and a few others, but not many more).

You can OC in MORE places than you can CC, in NC.

And you will not automatically have the cops called. I OC a lot of places, including banks, no alcohol restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, etc. I have yet to have the cops called.

In the future, please do a little fact checking before you post - these last few posts of yours have been full of incorrect information. I'm not trying to be an ass about it - but we see too many posts that are completely wrong.

2/22/2009 2:47:40 PM

Foolish it would be NOT to have open carry at banks. I am not sure many people would be confortable carrying $90K to the bank without some kind of protection.

2/22/2009 9:37:05 PM

I think it's foolish to not allow CC at banks.

I think I deserve the right to have the means to defend myself no matter the amount of my transaction

2/22/2009 9:59:55 PM

In reading through some of the NCGSs, I'm not really seeing the bank exemption for OC. Source?

2/22/2009 10:29:41 PM

The fact that it says nothing against OC'ing in a bank.

You must remember that no NCGS specifically references OC; never a single mention. NCGS only references CC and prohibition of carrying a weapon at all.

[Edited on February 22, 2009 at 11:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/22/2009 10:57:46 PM

The law specifically prohibits CC in banks and makes no mention of OC. therefore, it is legal.

§ 14-415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.

(c) A permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in the areas prohibited by G.S. 14-269.2, 14-269.3, 14-269.4, and 14-277.2, in an area prohibited by rule adopted under G.S. 120-32.1, in any area prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 922 or any other federal law, in a law enforcement or correctional facility, in a building housing only State or federal offices, in an office of the State or federal government that is not located in a building exclusively occupied by the State or federal government, a financial institution, or on any other premises, except state-owned rest areas or state-owned rest stops along the highways, where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises. It shall be unlawful for a person, with or without a permit, to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has remaining in his body any alcohol or in his blood a controlled substance previously consumed, but a person does not violate this condition if a controlled substance in his blood was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts.

2/22/2009 11:00:06 PM

^was just about to edit and post that

Not that I am planning on doing this, but I have a question regarding carrying at demonstrations, etc. NCGS states:

Quote :

"It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act."

So does this apply if said event is taking place on a public road/sidewalk? It says "under control of the state" which I take to mean state property. The reason I ask, is because in other laws, carrying is prohibited on state property, but that excludes roads, sidewalks, etc., even though they are technically state (or subdivision of) property.

2/22/2009 11:06:12 PM

"demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions"

For the protests at the NC General Assembly, you have to acquire a permit to protest on their grounds.
State control is what prohibits carrying.

For demonstrations in general, it is ok to carry if it isn't at a private health care facility.

This is based purely on the wording of the law. Police may interpret it incorrectly though, and cause some headaches.

[Edited on February 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM. Reason : .]

2/22/2009 11:36:30 PM

POST DELETED

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason : deleted post]

2/23/2009 11:50:42 AM

Will you get caught? Probably not.

That doesn't make it smart, nor does it help CCoC's case. CCers are by and large, law abiding citizens. Publicly admitting to breaking the law isn't smart and breaking the law isn't smart. You are hurting our case by going against one of our main principles.

Not to mention, if I were a Congressman, I wouldn't take someone seriously if they couldn't follow a simple law, even if it's the one they want changed.

It's just like the pro-pot guys. They whine and cry about the legalization of pot, yet they have no means to show that they are good, law-abiding citizens with that joint in their hand. Who takes them seriously?

2/23/2009 12:02:49 PM

http://therecorderonline.net/2009/02/24/professor-called-police-after-student-presentation/?wtf

2/28/2009 1:08:30 PM

Quote :

"He also touched on the controversial idea of [b]free gun zones[b] on college campuses."

Fuck yeah, sign me up.


On a serious tip, that is so fucking lame. I hope someone takes that class again and does the same fucking presentation, every year.

2/28/2009 1:14:06 PM

wow. all this stupidity is giving me a headache.

That student should get a lawyer and see what he can get out of the university for that garbage. Hell, I would have showed up to the station with a lawyer.

3/1/2009 12:24:53 PM

Quote :

"universitypresident@ccsu.edu"

If you would like to tell the president of the school, there ya go. I think a couple hundred emails have already gone out.

3/1/2009 12:48:48 PM