Recently I noticed an open position on our internal message board at my office. I read the qualifications and realized that this job aligned perfectly with my general tasks, as well as incorporated many of the independent projects I created and implemented on my own. As an added bonus this was a management role for a brand new department.

When I contacted the hiring manager by phone, he was very impressed with what I had to say and said he wanted to discuss this with me in further detail in person. Since my company has a rule that if you have been in your role < 2 years your boss can deny you, I told him I would need to speak with my boss before officially applying.

I've been in my position a little over a year and when I asked my boss he flat out told me that even thought there have been exceptions that he would not approve it. He even went as far to mention that he can acknowledge i'm ready for the role, that it would be a "slam dunk", and is the exact path I should take, but he just won't approve it. He then informed me that he talked to the hiring manager and told him that even though I was a great fit that he didn't want to let me go quite yet.

Would anyone act on this, or is it essentially a lost cause? Should I focus on an external search? There is absolutely no room to grow in my department and similar roles rarely develop or become
available here.

/words

6/1/2011 3:49:18 PM

I know people that have been in similar situations. A couple thoughts:

- Why won't your manager let you go? Are you too good at what you're doing currently and he doesn't think he can find a replacement?
- What is the timeline for hiring in the other role?
- What about requesting that your manager let you go through with the interview process, and if they decide they would like for you to take the position, it can be on a specific timeline to allow your boss plenty of time to find a replacement.
- It's unfortunate that your company doesn't place value on the development of its employees by placing these restrictions on job movement. It's obviously put in place to keep you from hopping around, but I never like policies like that.

6/1/2011 3:52:39 PM

wait a year?

Is there a large pay discrepancy? It sounds like your boss values you, you could probably use this a vehicle for a pay increase.

[Edited on June 1, 2011 at 3:55 PM. Reason : ]

6/1/2011 3:54:15 PM

Quote :

"when I asked my boss he flat out told me that even thought there have been exceptions that he would not approve it"

Quote :

"There is absolutely no room to grow in my department and similar roles rarely develop or become available here."

I would start looking into external opportunties.

6/1/2011 4:01:02 PM

In your position I'd have a serious discussion with my current boss over career paths and professional growth. Is he offering you any alternatives for professional development? What short and mid-term goals were set for you during your last performance review? You need to get to the root of why he isn't willing to approve it, and tactfully convey that you currently can't envision your future with the company.

Another thing to be aware of is the personalities of the individuals involved. I ended up in a position where my supportive management approved an internal transfer based on my geographical preferences, and then the new office made my life hell and then fired me a few weeks later for keeping my old bosses in the loop on how I was being treated. The warning signs were all there but I ignored them. Your boss could be trying to protect you from something he isn't willing to share with you.

Another potential holdup with internal transfers is where your revenue tracks to. Moving around can mess up people's projections and they don't like that, but this is something that could be negotiated between the two departments.

Regardless of what you do, tread cautiously. I've seen numerous instances of bosses writing off people's professional development the second they express dissatisfaction with their jobs. Seek more information, but don't let them think you're a flight risk in the process.

6/1/2011 4:07:45 PM

Don't let the white man keep you down!

6/1/2011 4:08:13 PM

Thanks for the quick responses everyone:

Quote :

"Why won't your manager let you go? Are you too good at what you're doing currently and he doesn't think he can find a replacement?"

I believe this to be the case. I have done a lot of independent projects that have reflected well on him indirectly and I have done projects for him to present to his bosses that have reflected well on him directly.

Quote :

"What is the timeline for hiring in the other role?"

They want someone before the end of June.

Quote :

"What about requesting that your manager let you go through with the interview...allow your boss plenty of time to find a replacement."

I did try that and he kept saying that "a 11 months is too soon. maybe before two years is up but not now"

Quote :

"t's unfortunate that your company doesn't place value on the development of its employees by placing these restrictions on job movement. It's obviously put in place to keep you from hopping around, but I never like policies like that."

This is what is bothering me the most. After my last review my boss stated that some of the things I did were unprecedented in an individuals first year and that the sky was the limit for me as far as my company was concerned.

Quote :

"wait a year? Is there a large pay discrepancy? It sounds like your boss values you, you could probably use this a vehicle for a pay increase."

I can definitely wait a year, but that role won't be available nor will anything similar since it is an entirely new department. Best case is someone would leave that role in two years. As for the pay increase, it would be roughly 20k more per year. Raises here range from 1,000 - 1,500.

Quote :

"tactfully convey that you currently can't envision your future with the company. "

Quote :

"don't let them think you're a flight risk in the process."

I have a difficult balancing these two, any suggestions?

I think the root of the cause is that he doesn't want to lose me since I make his team look really good- I am the top performer in all metrics and find time to do new projects and be involved in the companies culture. My boss did say that he would get me to interface with the other hiring manager and spoke to him about me, so that when another position comes up I'll be in a good position. However, I have reason to suspect he didn't speak to him at all and I don't foresee a similar position opening for 2+ years.

6/1/2011 4:59:17 PM

they probably just need you in the department you're in, not that they just want to hold you down

6/1/2011 6:34:49 PM

I would agree but business in my department has been slower than in the past. Also, the position I am in would be easily fillable. Sure, there would be 3 - 4 months of ramp up but other than that it would be easily do-able. There has never been lack of interest for my current role.

Except by me, I guess.

6/2/2011 8:43:53 AM

A good manager would never hold someone back like that.

I'd start looking outside the company in a situation like that.

6/2/2011 8:46:36 AM

^This.

6/2/2011 8:49:41 AM

I've seen my company occasionally do stuff like this (in terms of keeping someone because they are too vital to lose), but usually if a person wants the new position and they are qualified, then they'll get it.

If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can.



[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 9:21 AM. Reason : r]

6/2/2011 9:21:23 AM

^ /thread

Quote :

"If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can."

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason : ]

6/2/2011 10:19:00 AM

You need to tie your discussion with your boss back to past performance reviews and career goals have been previously set. Your boss is responsible for your career development. My company's performance review includes goals for the upcoming year, plus 3 year goals. In addition to expectations for your current duties, there should be a plan in place for development into future duties. Use this to your advantage. Identify the specific aspects of what is appealing about the other position, and ask your boss to discuss with you ways to achieve similar career growth within your current department. He needs to explain the mid-term future he sees for you and why this other position isn't part of it. It's calling him out on holding you back within the context of his responsibility to develop your career instead of a threat to seek external work.

If he's still an ass about it, inform the guy with the new job that you feel you'd be a good fit for his position and are submitting your application with the knowledge that your boss isn't inclined to approve the transfer. Leave it up to him to deal with the company politics if you're the best candidate. Then, follow everyone else's advice and start looking externally. I'm quicky learning that your career is all about your personal achievements and the networks you build, not the company that writes your paycheck.

6/2/2011 10:20:55 AM

1. Quit job
2. Apply for said target position
3. ???
4. Profit

6/2/2011 10:59:59 AM

ok i'll play along....

What's step 3?

6/2/2011 11:05:40 AM

If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can
If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can
If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can
If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can
If your current boss is so selfish to sacrifice your career for his gain, then you need to GTFO as soon as you can

6/2/2011 11:09:15 AM

I can only speak from my military experience, but when we bring a problem to our direct supervisor and he gives us an answer that we are not satisfied with, then we have the option of bringing the issue to the next guy up (most likely his boss). In fact, if someone fills out official request paperwork, and his boss denies it, they are still required to route it to the next guy. So for instance, I was in charge of a crew of like 60 guys, and I had the discretion of giving the guys one free day off if I deemed it worthy for good performance, family issues, etc. So if they routed the request paperwork, and I approved it, then they got the day off. However, if I disapproved it, then even though I was the final signing authority, it then had to be routed up to my boss and then the Captain. That way my bosses could do a "quality check" and understand why I was denying a request. The Captain had the authority to approve the request, regardless of how many levels of denial it had seen. I never personally had the Captain or anyone go contrary to my decisions, but I have seen it happen on several occasions.

I am assuming your boss isn't really that high up in the food chain, and honestly, it's not like you're being a douche or anything. It sounds like him denying your request is really hurting the company, and that's really what the main concern should be, right? There should be some kind of checks and balances system to ensure your boss isn't behaving like a total douche and making decisions which hurt the company. It is good that you first went to your boss, but now it sounds like it's time you go to the next level.

6/2/2011 1:58:19 PM

The people telling you to leave the whole company are being stupid. One selfish manager does not a shitty company make.

Apply for the position, start a relationship with the hiring group, let them know how sincerely interested you are. If they can let you know that you will be hired for the position if you want it, then give an ultimatum to your boss. He can either let you go, or you can move up the chain of command looking to get into this new position. He if refuses, pull in his boss, and if you have to pull in that guy's boss as well.

He can either sign you over and keep you working until a smooth transfer happens to your new job (and a new guy can slide into your position) or that you quit. Either you get hired on again in the new position, or you move on to a different job altogether. You obviously have experience and interest and can get a management position somewhere else, don't let your fear get in the way of your ambitions. Go get the success you want, fuck em.

6/2/2011 4:16:35 PM

if your boss really appreciates/values you that much, tell them you'll stay if he matches the $20K raise increase, otherwise tell him SEE YA

money talks and bullshit walks

6/2/2011 5:08:14 PM

I would find something shady your current boss does, covertly make it orders of magnitude worse, and then blackmail his ass to let you move up.

6/2/2011 5:17:36 PM

Tell the new manager your dilemma, ask if he has any suggestions. Because ultimately, it's his oerogative to get the best man for the job, especially for a new department If it is you that is the best candidate, he'll advocate for you and may be able to get a work around.

Either way gtfo of working for your current boss.

6/2/2011 5:35:44 PM

Quote :

"The people telling you to leave the whole company are being stupid. One selfish manager does not a shitty company make. Apply for the position, start a relationship with the hiring group, let them know how sincerely interested you are. If they can let you know that you will be hired for the position if you want it, then give an ultimatum to your boss. He can either let you go, or you can move up the chain of command looking to get into this new position. He if refuses, pull in his boss, and if you have to pull in that guy's boss as well. He can either sign you over and keep you working until a smooth transfer happens to your new job (and a new guy can slide into your position) or that you quit. Either you get hired on again in the new position, or you move on to a different job altogether. You obviously have experience and interest and can get a management position somewhere else, don't let your fear get in the way of your ambitions. Go get the success you want, fuck em. "

This is a very valid perspective. But the problem might be in IRSeriousCat’s environment, this could create an enemy for life, which means his old boss might undermine him in his new position. This is something only IRSeriousCat can really determine.

6/2/2011 7:41:37 PM

^ This would be my concern as well. This could turn into a really hairy situation depending on what the current boss is like. Is he the sort to hold grudges and try to screw you over?

And I doubt anyone is saying IRSeriousCat should walk in tomorrow and quit Jerry Maguire style. It may just be time to polish up the ol' resume and start looking outside the company too if this company isn't going to help him meet his career goals.

6/2/2011 8:19:27 PM

Thanks again everyone. I don't worry so much about making an enemy for life with my boss as I do coming off to the hiring manager as a guy who can't take what his boss has to say and drop it. Right now, since the role I wanted would interface some with my current team, I am going to tell my boss I want him to set up a similar, intermediary role on his team that does what i wanted to do and interfaces with the other team. I'll also casually state that since this is the type of role that intrinsically motivates me that I need to see myself move towards this goal in order to make sure I can focus the growth of my career internally in the organization.

On a side note I am going to go introduce face to face with the hiring manager tomorrow just to say what's up. If he brings it up, so be it. If not, well, then the plan above should be okay for now.

These are good suggestions though so keep them coming.

6/2/2011 11:36:24 PM

Quote :

"", and is the exact path I should take, but he just won't approve it."

As others have already said, GTFO.

I was in this exact situation and did what any intelligent person would do.

1. Go around said obstacle.
2. Explain situation to a manager in a position to listen.
3. Convince them you are right and expect to get the job because it's not fair to be held back when you should really be doing this job.


Well, guess what, I did that. It took a while, and then I realized that the immediate supervisor had a whole lot more power over me than I realized. When they tell you essentially "you're not going to do this because I say so" (which is what you were just told) then they've already covered their bases and have it covered. All of the managers talk. Trust me.

So basically, I recommend you quit.

I ultimately did, and it was the best thing I ever did.


As an odd caveat to the story - -

the strategic "ultimatum" was actually in the form of a drafted but unsigned resignation letter that I had sitting on a secretary's desk. Without being a drama queen about it, I left this letter in circulation as I discussed the terms of my transition to the job that I wanted. Management played it off like I was just being an immature douche pulling a stunt like a lightweight trying to act like he's calling the shots or presenting negotiating terms.
Ultimately, the answer I kept getting was false hope, which is also a form of them winning. Essentially, the longer they refuse to answer your question, the longer you stay in your job and the more you look like a douche trying to pull an ultimatum stunt. It's an excellent negotiation tactic to basically call your bluff concerning resignation.
I pulled the trigger and signed the letter and they did some legal maneuvering and held me on station for an entire year. If you want to talk about a fucking horrible situation, imagine already having QUIT and then having them tell you that they don't care. It actually got ugly.
Lesson learned is the bosses have already thought about the ultimatum tactic, it costs them money to retrain someone, but they will push you to try and call your bluff.
It's a company - they really don't walk around thinking about your personal struggles all day.

I ultimately resorted to a very toxic situation where it was like I wasn't even working for them anymore, and they just enjoyed seeing someone suffer - some people who never achieved anything in life but midlevel management like to hold others down. Bottom line - be wary of a toxic situation and once you throw down an ultimatum you can't back down.

[Edited on June 3, 2011 at 12:20 AM. Reason : more words]

6/3/2011 12:07:10 AM

^how the fuck does a company NOT LET YOU quit??? military?

6/3/2011 8:41:24 AM

I would do like others said and if the reason is truly that you are too valuable to your group to let you leave to another then you should be compensated as such. Let him know you understand his reasoning, but if they other group feels you are worth 20k more than they should have no problem finding at least another 10k to keep you where you are.

6/3/2011 9:13:21 AM

If you sign a contract and then they change the terms of the agreement in the middle of the contract and you have to hire a lawyer and then ultimately walk away with a severance package and what you wanted in the first place.

6/3/2011 7:40:09 PM

Quote :

"the strategic "ultimatum" was actually in the form of a drafted but unsigned resignation letter that I had sitting on a secretary's desk. Without being a drama queen about it, I left this letter in circulation as I discussed the terms of my transition to the job that I wanted. Management played it off like I was just being an immature douche pulling a stunt like a lightweight trying to act like he's calling the shots or presenting negotiating terms."

No offense, but leaving an unsigned resignation letter sitting on a secretary's desk actually IS an immature, douchey stunt that only a lightweight would pull.

6/3/2011 9:07:00 PM

ahahahha seriously


you drafted a letter and threatened to quit, and then you tried to quit and they wouldnt let you


I think out of all the advice given here, yours is by far the least relevant. How are you not embarrassed to even tell that story?

6/4/2011 2:23:35 AM

Actually I won in the end and made bank while barely having to work. I am not embarrassed because it was money I earned after already giving up, and they were a crappy place to work anyway. And now I am doing what I want.

Just an illustration that it's common to have to deal with crappy midlevel management trying to make other people miserable and that their toolkit is large.

6/5/2011 1:27:06 AM

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVENESS IN THE WORKPLACE ITT

6/5/2011 2:45:27 AM

WE NEED TO HAVE A MEETING ABOUT THIS IMMEDIATELY ^

but only when you have a moment

6/5/2011 12:00:05 PM

bump

7/21/2012 1:37:15 PM

Re-post from Old School but this forum might get more than 0 responses


I recently applied for a specialty assignment within my agency and have the interview next week.

I’m only one of 4 who will be interviewing for the one slot.

Here is the problem: I applied for the position most likely knowing that they have already selected one of the other candidates.

It’s a pretty a common practice here – by order, the unit(s) have to make a general announcement but the unit(s) usually asks a certain someone to apply so they can select their buddies or the easy fit (i.e. someone already in the back office).

It has become such a common practice that nobody wants to apply for any positions because they figure it’s a done deal (and then nobody applies at all). It just happened to a unit here and they were so mad that they tried to cancel the process instead of hiring the one candidate who applied.

I really want the position and plan on interviewing like its mine, but still want to hint to the powers that be that this type is going to cost them hard working candidates to other places (without giving them an ultimatum or being threatening).

Good idea or bad idea?

I’m super loyal to my current employer because I felt like they hired me when people like myself where a dime a dozen, but it’s getting to the point where I need to see that there is a future here or I will seek out my own opportunities.

[Edited on July 21, 2012 at 1:43 PM. Reason : ...]

7/21/2012 1:42:36 PM

Do you mean is it a good or bad idea to bring the issue up? I'd say its real important if that's how things work on a normal basis. That kind of cronyism (perhaps too harsh of a word but probably accurate) hurts retention and the department's reputation. Easiest way may be to bring it up as a morale issue to get the discussion going. At least in EMS if you frame it as a morale issue our supervisors would start paying attention since bad morale causes them problems too.

7/21/2012 2:22:51 PM

I tl,dr'd this.

Read something about your boss dicking you out of a promotion with a 20k/yr increase.

Have you ever seen that movie where the three guys try to kill thir bosses?

7/21/2012 3:49:01 PM

Quote :

"Do you mean is it a good or bad idea to bring the issue up?"

Is it a good idea. I feel like if people don't apply because they feel its rigged, then cronyism continues.

7/21/2012 6:33:53 PM

I certainly would hire the guy who subtly accuses my department of unethical hiring practices.

7/22/2012 10:11:19 AM

So what happened with IRSeriousCat's dilemma?

^^personally i wouldn't bother. that kind of stuff happens within my institution all the time and it's bullshit. it would take a whole lot of work on my part and a whole lot of other people coming forward for anything to be done about it, and frankly i just don't care that much. if you have the time and balls to speak out, by all means, do it.


[Edited on July 22, 2012 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

7/22/2012 11:11:08 AM

If you are mortgaged out the ass like most Americans, I say eat it and do your time like a good corporate drone. And don't honk your loud-ass horn at me and trigger my PTSD while I'm trying to enjoy my bike ride.

If you are in good financial shape, I'd ask why do you want to live like that. filling out forms and begging for permission? Unless it's the CDC or something that has a legitimate reason for such tight HR controls, then quit and find something rewarding to do.

Arthur Andersen had severe and arbitrary HR restrictions. Know why? It was to ensure that only pliable drones that don't ask too many questions work there. This allowed the org. to do bad shit and eventually it burned down because of it. If you are not happy, then leave. Don't beg, don't pass your issues up the chain of command, don't try to curry favor with that new department you like. Just fucking leave.

7/22/2012 12:19:18 PM

The problem I see if someone doesn't say something about the promotions being essentially rigged is it effects a lot of people downstream. If the employer starts getting a bad reputation of promoting based off friendships or whatever, it discredits your experience and could cause problems if you either want or need to find employment elsewhere. Even if you do get the new spot or a future promotion, will another agency take you as a lateral transfer when the current employer has a history of shoddy promotions? Like you mentioned it also causes good talent to look elsewhere.

Also, cronyism often leads to bigger problems down the road. There has been enough agencies in the triangle that have been shut down or folded into the counties due to poor management caused by too friendly of attitudes between everyone higher up in the chain. Is this something that is better brought up with a town manager or someone since its a more systemic issue?

7/22/2012 6:39:25 PM

Well I had an excellent interview but was pretty disheartened when, during the middle of the interview, I was informed they would have a decision tomorrow morning. I decided not speak out, I probably should have done but in hindsight, if I'm stuck her for long, it could have been suicide.

7/24/2012 5:52:47 PM

That's a pretty douche thing to say to someone in the middle of the damn interview.

7/25/2012 11:14:57 AM

Everything went the way it was rumored to. Shocking.

7/25/2012 6:32:22 PM

Never a good feeling. Maybe there's some hope in knowing that the hired person is capable of the job and not an idiot that has no right being in the position they're in.

7/25/2012 7:39:17 PM

Well the person who got the slot is well deserving, but its just the way he got it. That slot, by order doesn't require a formal process, so why bother dangling one in front of the masses if you don't have to because you already got your man.

Now his departure will open a slot in his unit but it will be the same song and dance.

7/25/2012 10:12:36 PM

Round 2:

As much as I love my organization, after the last round of internal interviews and another internal slot that I had pretty much wrapped up but it was given to another employee essentially to right a wrong from a few years ago, I have decided that I can longer continue to wait for an opportunity or to get lucky.

As of now, I'm pretty much done with the hiring process (barring any sort of disaster) with a boutique organization (Company A) that is highly regarded. They work in the same field but they are much more specialized and would provide some excellent experience. The downsides are the pay (long term), the regulatory side of the house, the lack of specialized compartments within and the scope of their mission. This position would most likely be a stepping stone, but I fear that if I got stuck here for an extended period of time, I would be unhappy.

I have applied to two other organizations (Company B and Company C). Both are in the same field that I currently work in, but they have much broader mission scope. Company B would be the dream job but I applied nearly 5 months ago and I, nor anybody else has heard a peep from them.

Company C is a solid organization that I also think would be a suitable place to work but has half the reputation and benefits as Company B.

Both of Company B & C have a diversified range of opportunities that would keep me busy.

My dilemma is this: I know for sure that I want to leave my organization as soon as possible. Company A wants me, and I think I could make it work. However, B would be most likely be the best opportunity long term. So, I do I decline Company A and wait for B or C and risk both them saying no and being stuck where I am at?

I know this is really a question that only I can answer, but I enjoy feedback.

9/23/2012 6:02:36 PM

I'd take A, but try not to get pigeonholed.

9/23/2012 7:08:50 PM