I like the comments that say he didn't suffer because he stayed in the Hanoi Hilton by morons who I'm pretty sure think that was an actual hotel

8/26/2018 9:36:23 PM

I revise my previous confusion over why people are upset trump won’t say something nice about McCain.

There’s liberals trashing McCain because they’re fundamentally opposed to his imperialist, white supremacist polical viewpoints.

But trump only hates McCain because they have minor political disagreements and McCain didn’t prostrate himself for trump, despite voting with him 85% of the time. This is very in democratic and needlessly divisive behavior.

8/26/2018 10:27:47 PM

Imperialist, I won't quarrel with, but white supremacist? Get the fuck outta here. At a minimum, that is wildly loaded language.

8/26/2018 11:26:18 PM

^ i'm using a newer context of the term that basically encompasses any ideology that doesn't seek to completely undo the legacy of slavery/jim crow/red lining/1980s war on drugs/1990s war on crime/etc, which includes most mainstream democrats and republicans prior to probably 2015. It's more about systemic racism vs interpersonal racism (like the Charlottesville/david duke types).

8/27/2018 12:42:43 AM

Right, I know what you’re doing, and it’s disengenuous bullshit.

8/27/2018 2:05:41 AM

How is that disingenuous? Disingenuous implies some deception?

The fact of the matter is that McCain was completely oblivious at best, even compared to his own contemporaries, on issues of racial and economic justice (despite having a non-white adopted child). You can't expect everyone in those marginalized groups specifically to really view him as a "hero". He was just another brick in the wall, except for the few times he showed courage most others wouldn't have.

Also worth pointing out his last great act was voting against ACA repeal, but if the GOP manages to repeal it, that basically nullifies the last courageous thing McCain did, which means the NEXT last thing was joining Obama in 2008 calling for economic stimulus?

It's remotely possible Republicans now will see his funeral and see Obama and GWB giving eulogies, and realize they've made a HUGE mistake with Trump, in which case this would be an amazing legacy for McCain, but I don't see this really happening either.

8/27/2018 2:30:55 AM

He told a woman who couldn't get coverage for her husband's cancer that maybe she should move. He was an asshole on healthcare, that one vote doesnt change that


[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 7:26 AM. Reason : .]

8/27/2018 7:24:00 AM

Wait a minute, let me get this straight. I'd like to simplify what moron said a few posts up.

I'm now a white supremacists because I'm not actively out there protesting? Some of us work for a living, and don't have time to protest everything we don't like. I protest with my vote. And I vote for candidates who I think are going to give my daughter the best shot at a good life. If that makes me a white supremacist, then oh well, so be it.

That really is some disingenuous bullshit, and it isn't going to help bring people together against Trump, and the others you see as propping up systemic racism. You want to get people into your fold? Don't fucking call them white supremacists.

Also, in calling pretty much everyone white supremacists, then you're belittling the horrible shit that actual white supremacists are doing.

8/27/2018 8:30:48 AM

Furthermore,

Quote :

"i'm using a newer context of the term that basically encompasses any ideology that doesn't seek to completely undo the legacy of slavery/jim crow/red lining/1980s war on drugs/1990s war on crime/etc, which includes most mainstream democrats and republicans prior to probably 2015. It's more about systemic racism vs interpersonal racism (like the Charlottesville/david duke types). "

is basically saying the same thing that some conservatives say about Muslims..."If you're a Muslim and you're really not a terrorist, then you should be out there protesting terrorism done in the name of Islam." I've heard conservatives say that over and over again.

W

8/27/2018 9:14:09 AM

where in his response did you read that you need to be in the streets protesting? you just can't support ideologies that maintain the racist and unjust status quo



[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 9:26 AM. Reason : .]

8/27/2018 9:26:16 AM

I also think it's a little disingenuous to describe someone who isn't totally woke" as having white supremacist political views.

8/27/2018 10:20:34 AM

^

+1

8/27/2018 10:24:39 AM

^^ okay, but it’s an accurate term.

Unless your only problem is with the words “white supremacy” then that’s just snowflakeism. It's a harsh sounding term because we associate it with Nazis and the KKK*, but you can’t look at the statistics of all the disparities across the board between white and black Americans and how this is reinforced continually by politicians, and find fault with the term. This is also the term that’s emerging in politics science and sociology, so you might as well just get used to it, rather than being a curmudgeon about it.

*If we were to let Trumpism/GOP march forward unopposed, it’s crystal clear now they would openly embrace Nazis and the KKK, so it’s valid even in the “classical” sense of the word too.

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 10:52 AM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 10:49:12 AM

Quote :

"Imperialist, I won't quarrel with, but white supremacist? Get the fuck outta here"

+1

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 10:51 AM. Reason : Any other phrases you'd like to radically change the meaning of ITT?]

8/27/2018 10:50:09 AM

^

Quote :

"This is also the term that’s emerging in politics science and sociology, so you might as well just get used to it, rather than being a curmudgeon about it."

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:05 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:07 AM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 10:53:24 AM

How many people are NOT currently enrolled in political science or sociology classes out in the country right now? You think changing the definition of a word usually reserved for the most vile of white people to encompass....most white people, are going to do anything to help your cause?

You're either very naive, or walking so far above the clouds in your little liberal mind that you just can't relate to the everyperson out there.

I'm sorry but you're going to do nothing but turn people off by using that term like you are.

8/27/2018 11:00:02 AM

so many snowflakes

Quote :

"Unless your only problem is with the words “white supremacy” then that’s just snowflakeism. It's a harsh sounding term because we associate it with Nazis and the KKK*, but you can’t look at the statistics of all the disparities across the board between white and black Americans and how this is reinforced continually by politicians, and find fault with the term. "

8/27/2018 11:07:38 AM

^^ hence why we’re currently on a “forum” which is a venue where people share ideas. It’s funny though you’re essentially just asking me to use more politically correct terms to suit your generational biases...

I understand why you’re upset about the realization you’re a supporter of white supremacy, my two options were to type out long posts or link to articles and stuff you wouldn’t read or just dismiss, or just jump in cold.

Quote :

"Also, in calling pretty much everyone white supremacists, then you're belittling the horrible shit that actual white supremacists are doing."

The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have a problem. I’ve supported white supremacist policies and so have you, next step is vowing to do better.

What’s worse though, a Nazi running over and killing a person in Charlottesville or political rhetoric that demonizes the black community (Reagan and crack cocaine, Clinton and superpredators), resulting in hundreds or thousands of dead black people who shouldn’t have been killed, and other policies that have consistently kept wealth in black households at a fraction of white household for decades? White supremacy has always REALLY been executed through Congress, the Nazis are only useful so we can all agree in principle racists are bad.

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:09 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:11 AM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 11:09:01 AM

Oh snap. Now we're all curmudgeons because we aren't buying into this new definition of White Supremacist moron keeps reading about on his blogs.

8/27/2018 11:13:46 AM

^ yes, basically



[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:23 AM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 11:18:37 AM

i've actually not seen white supremacist used this way, but getting upset about which specific type of racism something is is like when the nazi alt-rights get mad at you for calling them nazi and ask you to define nazi.

8/27/2018 11:19:45 AM

It is semantics. "White Suprmacy" has a pretty clear meaning to most people. I don't htink it's very helpful to dilute it's meaning to apply it to... almost every politician and the vast majority of the American public. I think you could use a more accurate term.

8/27/2018 11:23:49 AM

it seems like one could easily make an argument that the "everyone knows what it means" is exactly the problem, because they assume that if they or someone isn't marching with the kkk then they aren't contributing to a racist system built on white supremacy

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:28 AM. Reason : sp]

8/27/2018 11:27:50 AM

^^ like what term? What is a good recognizable term to describe a society that results from systemic bias for one race after centuries of enslaving another race, where the beneficiary race is “white”?

Also, _I_ didn’t make the term up or change it’s meaning.



[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:30 AM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 11:29:28 AM

Eh, I just think it's silly to use that term. What term are you going to use for actual straight-forward racist White Supremacist (who aren't active Nazis or KKK members)?

8/27/2018 11:34:36 AM

what term are we going to use for nazis who wear brown shirts and what term are we going to use for nazis who wear american flag shirts?

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:43 AM. Reason : ?]

8/27/2018 11:42:51 AM

The problem with applying that term more broadly is that it will stop all dialogue right where it's stalled right in this thread.

I don't disagree with the application in principal, but I don't know if it's constructive.

8/27/2018 11:45:22 AM

it's maybe an ineffective term to use because snowflakes don't like confronting their own contributions to racism. it doesn't accomplish what i think is the goal of using it.



[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 12:00 PM. Reason : .]

8/27/2018 11:47:43 AM

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/the-language-of-white-supremacy/542148/

Here’s an article that basically describes the reactions ITT and it made me realize it probably was Tanehsi Coates I first saw using the term this way.

8/27/2018 11:54:43 AM

I can just hear the interview now..

So moron, when did you stop being a white supremacist?

8/27/2018 12:05:10 PM

8/27/2018 12:22:59 PM

How is any of this helpful?

8/27/2018 2:15:54 PM

Obama had white supremacist political viewpoints.

8/27/2018 3:19:16 PM

You could argue quite successfully that McCain's "principled maverick" reputation was entirely undeserved and he was just another hard line conservative who was particularly skilled at manipulating the media's portrayal of him. Calling him a white supremacist though? I think it kinda cheapens the meaning of that word if you just start throwing it at every politician who promotes policies you don't like.

8/27/2018 4:22:28 PM

^^
Yeah a lot of neoliberal policies are based in entrenching whiteness, including Obama’s.

8/27/2018 4:39:54 PM

Y'all heard it here first. Obama is a white supremacist.

8/27/2018 5:07:35 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2018/08/27/how-vietnam-has-reacted-death-john-mccain/?utm_term=.4190aad89fc1

How Vietnam has reacted to the death of John McCain

8/27/2018 5:38:51 PM

^^

This should probably go in the Obama thread... but you have to wonder how we got from Obama having a stellar economic record by the traditional measures, to a Trump presidency, and it wasn't just because Trump broke campaign finance law and possibly colluded with Russian hackers. Trump is a key part of Obama's legacy. Obama was very centrist, but when a centrist upholds a status quo built on white supremacy, doesn't that make them an agent of white supremacy also?

Cornel West, a Bernie Bro, breaks it down in this article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/barack-obama-legacy-presidency

8/27/2018 5:47:16 PM

It’s difficult for me to buy into this thought process.

Money is god and the power it provides is color blind. Anyone with money and power will uphold the status quo regardless of background. I can’t think of a country or system that doesn’t work this way. Fighting white supremacy does not solve the issue. You might end white supremacy but the status who will shift rather than being up ended.

8/27/2018 6:39:59 PM

^ that’s true, but in America, white supremacy and money are intricately linked.

The key statistic is to look at family wealth, white families have around 10x the wealth of black families and it hasn’t been getting much better. You can follow the trend lines and see this is a direct result of the legacy of slavery and racism.

This means basically any policy that can close this gap is directly a threat to white wealth and power, so often to maintain this gap politicians just aim to marginalize black people. There’s lots of examples of this, overpolicing black areas then eliminating an ex felons ability to vote for example.

8/27/2018 8:28:19 PM

Really if you want to stay up to date just sign up for twitter and follow https://twitter.com/BreeNewsome

She’s the lady that climbed the flag pole in SC to rip down the confederate flag, but she’s also highly educated and intelligent and posts great insight.

If you want no filter, zero political correctness, but usually technically right perspectives from a black biologist follow https://twitter.com/Satirony

Also killer mike: https://twitter.com/KillerMike
He’s rich, big Bernie supporter

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ]

8/27/2018 9:14:49 PM

moron killing it ITT

8/27/2018 10:46:31 PM

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 11:53 PM. Reason : fix image size on desktop]

8/27/2018 11:49:58 PM

Quote :

"The fact of the matter is that McCain was completely oblivious at best, even compared to his own contemporaries, on issues of racial and economic justice (despite having a non-white adopted child). You can't expect everyone in those marginalized groups specifically to really view him as a "hero""

Calling someone a white supremacist partly because he doesn't support leftist, redistributionist economic policies is ridiculous, and while I would never expect everyone in those marginalized groups you mention, or anyone else, to view him as a political hero, his entire adult life was noteworthy, he accomplished some genuinely heroic things, and by politician standards, generally strived to do things right and with integrity in that business.

Quote :

"you just can't support ideologies that maintain the racist and unjust status quo "

So now, if you're not a subscriber to hard-left economic policies, i.e. Bernie/Liz Warren/that waitress who just got elected, you're a white supremacist. Ohhhhhhhh...K.

Quote :

"Unless your only problem is with the words “white supremacy” then that’s just snowflakeism."

For all they rightfully malign the left for it, there's tons of snowflakeism on the right, but this isn't it. As I said to start with, "white supremacist" is a loaded term with a relatively specific meaning. If you described McCain and others as "people who support policies that do not prioritize assisting the marginalized and unsuccessful", well that would be true and nobody should have a quarrel with that. To call them "white supremacists", though, is to be either deliberately absurdly obtuse, or else to be deliberately weaponizing a loaded term, and then trying to weasel out and innocently say "Who, me? Noooo...I'm not calling them white supremacists...just white supremacists.

Quote :

"*If we were to let Trumpism/GOP march forward unopposed, it’s crystal clear now they would openly embrace Nazis and the KKK, so it’s valid even in the “classical” sense of the word too. "

No, that doesn't make it valid in any way. You're changing the rules in the middle of the game here. Trump has nothing to do with calling normal, honorable people across a fairly wide political spectrum "white supremacists." You aren't getting away with that shit just because Trump is...all of the disgusting things that he is.

Quote :

"What’s worse though, a Nazi running over and killing a person in Charlottesville or political rhetoric that demonizes the black community (Reagan and crack cocaine, Clinton and superpredators), resulting in hundreds or thousands of dead black people who shouldn’t have been killed, "

I oppose all of that, both the rhetoric and the policy, and obviously the actual violence.

Quote :

"getting upset about which specific type of racism something is is like when the nazi alt-rights get mad at you for calling them nazi and ask you to define nazi."

No, this is not like that.

Quote :

"what term are we going to use for nazis who wear brown shirts and what term are we going to use for nazis who wear american flag shirts?"

"Nazi" sounds good to me. That's a terrible analogy.



Look, you are waaaaay, looney-fringe left; I'm never going to agree with you on a lot of policy, but what you're trying to accomplish here is valuable. I agree that there are concerns and problems; I, for one, want to know about these viewpoints. People should realize what the tradeoffs or dangers/pitfalls of policies are--be in drug policy, policing, justice system, tax...you name it, the list goes on. Sometimes I, and many others, will say "Noted, got it, but ____ is my priority, not ____." Very often, it will be "OK, good point, I'm not adopting your policy and I'm still supporting mine, but based on your concern, I'm all for mitigating/moderating/adjusting in ____ ways." Occasionally, there will, among thoughtful people, even be cases of abandoning a prior-held viewpoint because it either just isn't supported by the evidence, or the downsides associated with it make it unacceptable or undesirable.

...but when you're out here emerging out of self-loathing just long enough to call President Obama a white supremacist, never mind Sen McCain (who, I might add, has a list of very un-white supremacisty bona fides to his credit), I maintain that's exactly what I called it the first time: disingenuous bullshit. (and having watched the tortured defense of your position unfold further, I'm actually more critical than I was before.) You don't need to waste your time rehashing anything; I totally understand your arguments--it's just that they're absurd.

Finally, consider this as one anecdotal datapoint: I plan on not voting for one single Republican candidate for any race this fall, unless I'm comfortable that the candidate is actively hostile to Trump and Trumpism, and is otherwise someone I can support, and is better than the (D) alternative (that last part is easy if the first 2 are in place). I want to support Democrats, if only because they're not Republicans, who as a group have grown so malignant than almost anything would be preferable...

...but every time I think I'm getting to the point where I could support more than a token Dem or two, I'm reminded of shit like this. Shit like vocal support for socialism, heavily redistributionist policies, and villainizing wealth and success. Silly anti-gun measures. Absolutely insanely crazy shit like "free bleeding" or laughably stupid stuff like "choosing your pronouns." Get the fuck outta here. If this is my alternative with the Dems, then fuck it. I'd rather just keep Trump, the worst President in U.S. history, and his ilk. Fuck it, at least he'll be term limited and more constrained by opposition. Sorry, I just went all white-supremacist. Look what you made me do.

[Edited on August 28, 2018 at 1:33 AM. Reason : I don't even expect fully "3rd way"...but I'd go for candidates from the Obama mold, etc]

8/28/2018 1:29:59 AM

To moron’s point, recent reporting regarding white voters’ anxiety over eventually no longer being the majority of the population seems to depict white supremacy.

8/28/2018 7:15:32 AM

^^ cool with racial injustice, somehow not a white supremacist tho

8/28/2018 7:50:20 AM

Oh that’s totally out there, and a problem. The destruction that’s causing is plain to see...but his scope is even well beyond that.

8/28/2018 7:51:22 AM

theduke is making my point in this thread.

moron - would you rather have another person voting Democrats in, helping put the kind of change you're looking for in place? Or do you want to be stupid and alienate someone like theduke because of your batshit crazy viewpoints of what white supremacy is?

^And white supremacy /= white majority. I would suspect that in any country, there would be some people who belong to a majority who would get a little anxious at no longer being that majority.

8/28/2018 7:52:25 AM

we've had centrist democratic candidates with economic policies basically the same as what centrist republicans have been calling for for decades now but everyone acts like they were far left socialists, you're never going to convince these people to vote democratic party

the only votes the democrats should care about winning over are fed up people who have been staying home on election day because the democratic party cares more about wall street than them, and they don't energize those people by trying to court republicans who will never vote for them. that's the strategy that lost over 1000 seats and the presidency to trump, it's never going to work

you guys are the nazis in the flag shirts clarifying that you're not the nazis in the brown shirts.



[Edited on August 28, 2018 at 8:04 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on August 28, 2018 at 8:05 AM. Reason : .]

8/28/2018 8:00:10 AM

I honestly can't take you seriously. This is the same guy that bitched incessantly about the homeless around Moore Square offending his delicate sensibilities to the point he wanted them all relocated forcibly.

But great, at least you're not a Nazi

8/28/2018 8:11:56 AM