11

7/23/2014 5:03:18 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/31/syrian-defector-assad-poised-to-torture-and-murder-150-000-more.html

Quote :

"Syrian Defector: Assad Poised to Torture and Murder 150,000 More Congress was shocked Thursday when a Syrian defector recounted how he documented Assad’s killing of over 11,000 innocents. But that’s only the tip of the iceberg, according to ‘Caesar.’ The regime of Syrian President Bashar al Assad is holding 150,000 civilians in custody, all of whom are at risk of being tortured or killed by the state, the Syrian defector known as “Caesar” told Congress on Thursday."

WARNING: Graphic Images
http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2014/07/31/caesar-at-briefing-on-assad-s-killing-machine-exposed.html

8/5/2014 2:00:32 AM

^wow, brutal. it is funny how this has dropped off the front pages. well, not funny.

8/5/2014 11:05:02 AM

U.S. Taxpayers aren't funding this particular genocide. Or are we?

8/5/2014 12:18:50 PM

we're funding some factions of the rebels, right? who have similar goals to the isis rebels.

8/5/2014 12:22:31 PM

Isis is moving into Lebananon: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/middleeast/isis-lebanon-syria.html

Interesting: http://mic.com/articles/95384/what-syria-s-civil-war-looks-like-through-the-instagram-of-a-young-jihadist

8/5/2014 12:32:04 PM

The civil war in Syria seems to have been put on the back-burner as far as headlines for major news outlets are concerned, but it hasn't really come to a conclusion, which means the anti-Assad forces are still fighting, and a large majority of those anti-Assad forces are affiliated with ISIS/ISIL.

This morning, Hagel announced that targeting the ISIS forces in Iraq isn't going to be enough, and that those fighting in Syria will also need to be dealt with. This seems like a pretty complex issue for our administration, as well as other governments around the world that have spoken out against Assad and have pledged support to the rebels.

If we target ISIS/ISIL rebels in Syria, it will obviously aid Assad, but if we don't do anything, stamping them out in Iraq will be difficult. Glad I'm not the POTUS right now.

8/22/2014 12:11:31 PM

Quote :

"anti-Assad forces are still fighting, and a large majority of those anti-Assad forces are affiliated with ISIS/ISIL."

Any data to support the "large majority"?

8/22/2014 12:18:44 PM

^^this was posted a while back, some additions could probably be made

Quote :

""So the Syrian government (which the US is working to overthrow) is now cooperating with the Iraqi government (which the US installed) to fight the Jihadist terrorists/"rebels" (which the US opposes in Iraq but supports in Syria)??? Meanwhile, Iran (which the US opposes) has offered to help Iraq (its former arch-enemy) AND the US (its current enemy) and Syria (its ally) in suppressing the the Jihadists (which the US opposes in Iraq but supports in Syria)??? And where does Israel, (who hates Iran, hates Syria, hates Iraq and hates Jihadists) stand in all of this???""

8/22/2014 12:23:11 PM

damn

Hero Syrian Boy Saves His Sister From Syrian Army Sniper Fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95LcIHNQnCk

what a brave child!

using snipers on small children... drop a nuke on assad's ass

Quote :

"More than 11,000 children have died in war-torn Syria since 2011, including hundreds targeted by snipers, a report by the London-based Oxford Research group revealed earlier this month. The group found that sniper fire killed 389 Syrian children under the age of 17 between March 2011 and August 2013. The UN has previously accused the Syrian regime of "crimes against humanity" – including the use of snipers against small children."

11/14/2014 4:09:35 AM

drop a NUKE in the middle east? do you not realize how many innocent people that would kill? you are a fucking monster.

11/16/2014 1:34:18 AM

Quote :

"If we target ISIS/ISIL rebels in Syria, it will obviously aid Assad, but if we don't do anything, stamping them out in Iraq will be difficult. "

So you're insinuating that interfering with internal conflicts in nations on the other side of the world can be complex and have potential unintended consequences? Tell me more.

11/16/2014 6:35:15 PM

the video of the child ^^^ was a movie by a norwegian director

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30057401

11/16/2014 10:38:43 PM

it is a terrible mess

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/world/middleeast/airstrikes-blunt-isis-in-raqqa-but-many-syrians-there-arent-grateful.html

Quote :

"SANLIURFA, Turkey — American airstrikes on the Syrian city of Raqqa, the vaunted capital of the Islamic State’s self-proclaimed caliphate, have scattered its fighters and disrupted the harsh system they had imposed, residents and visitors there say. But they see no gratitude toward the United States. Rather, they suggested in interviews, many people are angry at the Americans. Food and fuel prices in Raqqa have soared, power blackouts have prevailed, and order is now threatened by a vacuum of any authority. For all their violence and intolerance toward disbelievers, the fighters of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, at least functioned as a government, providing basic services and some semblance of stability."

11/17/2014 2:46:29 AM

let ISIS / ISIL take all these countries we 'hate' so we only have to deal with one entity instead of twelve(ish)

then they can civil war themselves to a degree they wont mess with the west anymore

we can play favorites with whatever faction gets out oil onto a boat

/easypeasy

11/17/2014 9:50:21 AM

Russia is setting up a forwarding base:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/15/middleeast/syria-russia-military-buildup/index.html

9/15/2015 3:08:52 PM

Russia launches airstrikes using its fighter jets in Syria

Ends up killing 34 civilians

9/30/2015 5:50:15 PM

WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGES

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3257299/New-book-reveals-grotesque-torture-murder-meted-Syrian-dictator-Assad-man-Russia-s-Putin-helping-power.html



Any Putin is helping prop up the monster. Poor Syrian people, caught between many devils.

10/2/2015 11:51:57 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/11160986/Syria-from-space-satellite-images-of-civil-war.html

sad

11/5/2015 1:40:42 AM

http://www.eurasiareview.com/26122015-syria-impact-of-death-of-zahran-alloush-analysis/

Shitshow++

12/26/2015 12:35:21 AM

Watch this 23 min documentary.

I couldn't finish it in one sitting; it made me sick to my stomach and I was afraid I would have an upset stomach. Not many things can make me sick. Will finish it later.

THIS IS LIFE INSIDE ASSAD’S SYRIA AFTER 6 YEARS OF BRUTAL WAR
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/d34w5w/this-is-life-inside-assads-syria-after-6-years-of-brutal-war

1/11/2018 2:48:21 PM

So the US attacked syrian forces for what they call self-defense in retaliation for Syrian forces shooting at anti-Syrian rebels during a Syrian civil war.

Just in case you were still wondering who is insane.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-usa-syria/more-than-100-pro-syrian-forces-killed-after-thwarted-attack-u-s-official-idUSKBN1FR3BB

[Edited on February 8, 2018 at 1:44 AM. Reason : imagine if this happened in the us. thats right. you can't.]

2/8/2018 1:43:21 AM

http://www.newsweek.com/now-mattis-admits-there-was-no-evidence-assad-using-poison-gas-his-people-801542

2/10/2018 5:39:26 PM

even though the entire media and us government was convinced it was true...except one person
http://thehill.com/policy/international/327922-tulsi-gabbard-skeptical-assad-regime-behind-gas-attack

Quote :

"April 7th, 2017- Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) said Friday she was "skeptical" that Syrian leader Bashar Assad's regime was behind this week's chemical weapons attack in northern Syria."

[Edited on February 10, 2018 at 5:57 PM. Reason : cool]

2/10/2018 5:56:43 PM

she lost any credibility when she met with assad last year

2/10/2018 7:01:05 PM

and now it turns out she was the only one acting with wisdom and everyone else should have lost credibility

Quote :

""If President Assad is found to be responsible after an independent investigation for these horrific chemical weapons attack, I'll be the first one to denounce him.""

another quote from back then

2/10/2018 7:56:47 PM

Did you guys actually read the article it references in AP news?

https://apnews.com/bd533182b7f244a4b771c73a0b601ec5

Quote :

"Mattis says it is clear that Assad’s government has weaponized and used chlorine gas in the Syrian civil war."

His quoted about no evidence are about sarin gas specifically, not chemical weapons generally.

[Edited on February 10, 2018 at 8:47 PM. Reason : a]

2/10/2018 8:44:31 PM

Well he does have to tiptoe around the fact that the US also uses non-sarin chemical weapons.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/world/middleeast/raqqa-syria-white-phosphorus.html

2/11/2018 4:19:07 PM

It's not a bad point but that article doesn't really imply we're using chemical weapons on people, it implies we're using white phosphorus as intended - smokescreens, conceal/cover, etc.

Although it sounds like it's being used in urban environments so that argument may be moot. Any clue what the rules are as it relates to when a location is designated a combat zone and what happens after civilians are given time to evacuate?

I mean white phosphorus or not, it's pretty stupid to stick around anywhere that fighting is ongoing, particularly an urban environment where four or five countries are fighting a war.

2/12/2018 10:21:27 AM

war with iran?

2/12/2018 4:54:52 PM

^^Yeah, its not like they can't easily pick up and just move to another country

2/12/2018 5:23:32 PM

Well I was speaking more to established refugee camps primarily. I know a decent number have also left for other countries such as Iraq.

2/12/2018 5:48:32 PM

someone should tell him about iraq

2/12/2018 8:55:20 PM

Am I missing something? Is there some massive civil war occurring all over Iraq at the moment, comparable to what's going on in Syria, with Russian/Kurdish/Iranian/Syrian/Israeli/Turkish military forces all involved at scale?

[Edited on February 12, 2018 at 10:10 PM. Reason : a]

2/12/2018 10:08:19 PM

Yes there is and you can't reach northeastern Iraq/Kurdistan without crossing through the most dangerous areas. The Turkish Border is shut. The Saudi border is shut. The Israeli border is shut (duh). The Lebanese refugee camps are hellholes. Anyone would choose to stay at home with violence than choose to go to a foreign place that is also vulnerable to the same violence.

You need to check your privilege until we start allowing free airlifts of refugees into our country Ellis Island style.

2/13/2018 7:11:50 PM

I have no problem bringing refugees in. Talk to the "drain the swamp" crowd about that one.

And no, there is not a full scale civil war ongoing in Iraq with the nation's I mentioned above at scale. You need to check your supreme "America is the worst nation on earth" views until you start rationally assessing facts.

You are literally devolving to the level of JCE at this point, something I was sincerely hopeful would not happen.

[Edited on February 13, 2018 at 9:19 PM. Reason : a]

2/13/2018 9:19:02 PM

Sorry for getting the facts wrong. I haven't been to Iraq because I thought it was still dangerous. Could you please do me a couple of favors? First, call the people who write the travel warnings and tell them that after assessing the facts, you have declared western iraq a safe place to travel and that their warnings are outdated.

Then, update wikipedia because this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Civil_War_(2014%E2%80%93present)
still says this

Quote :

"Status Ongoing"

I should have known Iraq was safe after seeing this



[Edited on February 13, 2018 at 9:55 PM. Reason : keep em honest]

2/13/2018 9:54:11 PM

I will do you one better. I will restate my remark above, point out where you derailed, provide you evidence backing up the content and meaning of my actual statement, and point out how you've now derailed this conversation simply because you apparently have some massive anti-American hard-on that is preventing you from assessing things rationally and thus preventing you from obtaining the credibility necessary to develop real solutions to complex problems.

First, the exchange that has led to this frustrating and increasingly common trend of conversation here. I’ve bolded the key parts.

A.

Quote :

"I mean white phosphorus or not, it's pretty stupid to stick around anywhere that fighting is ongoing, particularly an urban environment where four or five countries are fighting a war. "

B.

Quote :

"^^Yeah, its not like they can't easily pick up and just move to another country"

C.

Quote :

" Well I was speaking more to established refugee camps primarily. I know a decent number have also left for other countries such as Iraq. "

D.

Quote :

"someone should tell him about iraq"

E.

Quote :

"Am I missing something? Is there some massive civil war occurring all over Iraq at the moment, comparable to what's going on in Syria, with Russian/Kurdish/Iranian/Syrian/Israeli/Turkish military forces all involved at scale? "

F.

Quote :

" Yes there is and you can't reach northeastern Iraq/Kurdistan without crossing through the most dangerous areas. The Turkish Border is shut. The Saudi border is shut. The Israeli border is shut (duh). The Lebanese refugee camps are hellholes. Anyone would choose to stay at home with violence than choose to go to a foreign place that is also vulnerable to the same violence. ((no mention of the Iraq border, the country on which I’m being attacked))"

G.

Quote :

"You need to check your privilege until we start allowing free airlifts of refugees into our country Ellis Island style."

Responses per category.

A. Here I suggest that sticking around in urban environments (the context that matters given this whole thing started over the use of white phosphorus in urban environments) while multiple global and regional powers fight an actual war is stupid. Presuming your options are stick here and almost certainly be killed or leave and attempt to make it to refugee camps where you have a chance to survive, common sense dictates you make that attempt.

B. Never said it was easy. Thanks for the sarcastic remarks, particularly on an issue you seem to care so much about. First point of derailment to which we all extend our gratitude.

C. Me, attempting to keep discourse civil and productive, clarifying my remarks on the oft chance that you simply misunderstood me instead of just being an ass with no depth. Here I suggest a decent number have already made it to Iraq, so the precedent exists for my suggestions in A being worth a shot.

D. Ah yes, further devolving. Again, we all thank you for your critical contributions to discourse.

E. This one is important, as I point out that what is going on in Iraq is FAR different than Syria and FAR less violent, as it relates to scale (a word I used very specifically).

F. No, there is not. For starters, I appreciate what you’re referring to when you pull the State Department travel warning website as well as the Wikipedia page that speaks about the ongoing Iraq Civil War. Regarding the State Department travel warning website, the words “civil,” “war,” and “civil war” are not mentioned anywhere on the page.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/iraq-travel-advisory.html

Dangerous? Absolutely. I never said it wasn't. Particularly dangerous for American Citizens? Absolutely. I never said it wasn't. What is the State Department travel warning website designed for? Is it designed to alert Syrians that travel to Iraq presents a unique danger to them?

Nope. It is designed to alert Americans that travel to Iraq presents a unique danger to them. This is evidenced, had you read the warning, by the constant referrals to “U.S. Citizens” as opposed to the citizens of literally any other nation on this planet.

Quote :

" U.S. citizens in Iraq are at high risk for violence and kidnapping. Numerous terrorist and insurgent groups are active in Iraq and regularly attack both Iraqi security forces and civilians. Anti-U.S. sectarian militias may also threaten U.S. citizens and Western companies throughout Iraq. Attacks by improvised explosive devices (IEDs) occur frequently in many areas of the country, including Baghdad. The U.S. government’s ability to provide routine and emergency services to U.S. citizens in Iraq is extremely limited."

Now, regarding the Wikipedia page, this is where the full meaning of my statement comes into play, as opposed to your response based on whatever part of it triggered you into “hate America” mode. I stated explicitly that I am talking about Iraq as compared to Syria, with respect to an actual ongoing war involving global and regional players fighting against each other all over the majority of territory at scale.

The Iraq Civil War, as it mentions all throughout the Wikipedia page you referenced and did not read, is between the Iraqi government along with coalitions forces (it lists them there), all against ISIL/ISIS. The only “breakaway” region of any note is the northern Kurdish territory which has been in the exact state that it’s in for decades. Additionally, the battle against ISIL/ISIS (the opposition force in this “Civil War”) has been overwhelmingly won by Iraq and its allies, relegating combat now to suicide attacks, border skirmishes and air sorties.

There is no major urban combat ongoing, there is no major combat taking place across the entire territory of Iraq and there are not major global and regional powers all fighting against each other. So, compared with Syria, yes, Iraq is absolutely a reasonable option to attempt to flee as a refugee.

I’m not going to touch on the other countries you named as I am making my larger point clear with this response.
Additionally, not sure why you think it’s impossible to cross the border as a refugee into Iraq, which brings me to the following links you should peruse.

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/global-conflict-tracker#!/conflict/war-against-islamic-state-in-iraq
https://iraq.liveuamap.com/
http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/country.php?id=103

Iraq 3RP Regional Refugee & Resilience Plan 2017-2018
http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/download.php?id=12742

Stats and Locations of Syrian Refugees in Iraq. 31 January 2018
http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/download.php?id=15125

The best possible argument you could have made would have used information from the Regional Refugee & Resilience Plan, which stresses the difficulties, concerns and overall issues that hinder refugee immigration. And even then, it still covers the facts regarding access, regarding those who have come and overall, when you look at the issues/risks in this report as compared with being doused with white phosphorus (as is alleged) or bombed out of your mind on a daily basis, still renders my suggestion completely rational, particularly as I wasn’t bringing it up for some extended debate but more as a single point of information.

G. Not sure what you mean about me checking my privilege here. Do you mean being privileged and able to travel freely at will in reasonably safe conditions and how I must be assuming that Syrian war victims should be able to do the same thing? If you think I assume that then I have no clue what else to do with you. If you don’t assume that about me then I have absolutely no clue what the point of your statement was, other than as yet another attempt to continue bringing every one down by structuring arguments and discussions in the exact same manner as Donald Trump.

[Edited on February 13, 2018 at 11:07 PM. Reason : quotes]

2/13/2018 11:05:41 PM

Refugee camps are not a super fun place to be either. I'd prob choose the bombings over my daughter/wife being raped or trafficked and my son being recruited into a terrorist organization.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/20138520329121269.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/rrdp-women-fear-violence-rape-refugee-camps-170123180556027.html

[Edited on February 15, 2018 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

2/15/2018 11:53:06 AM

All of that is covered in the documents I sourced. Once again, you tackle one problem at a time. This is literally how instincts work in animals.

And trust me, you're not thinking about the negative aspects of anything anywhere else when you're crouched in a cellar trying to avoid bombs. You're only thinking "when will it stop so I can leave."

It is far easier to prevent your wife from being raped than it is to prevent both you and her from being killed by an indiscriminate explosion from the sky.

Anyway, this was never the point of my comment.

[Edited on February 15, 2018 at 12:13 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2018 12:12:26 PM

tbf the overall civilian death toll is estimated at 100k and has been going down every year

you're dismissing millions of people as stupid, but maybe they're able to weigh the odds themselves. 1/180 chance of dying over the course of 10 years vs. uprooting your entire life to move to a foreign country (or even somewhere else within syria), where you might also die or otherwise suffer

[Edited on February 15, 2018 at 12:34 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2018 12:32:20 PM

I'll concede that as a fair point, considering I used the word "stupid."

2/15/2018 2:04:24 PM

it’s extremely gross to judge/second guess families fleeing war

especially while posting from the US

2/15/2018 2:19:41 PM

??? no one was criticizing people for fleeing. this was all in reference to a criticism of people who chose/were forced to stay.

2/15/2018 2:23:31 PM

Judge? Agree. Second guess? I think it's fair to do that.

For instance, when you enter a combat zone, after you've warned people to leave, you absolutely second guess those that remain behind. Are they insurgents? Are they terrorists? Are they the enemy, trying to blend in with civilians?

You 100% second guess that.

But I agree on the judgement part.

2/15/2018 2:27:46 PM

^
that's one of the reasons the military uses to justify killing civilians (and subsequently call them insurgents in casualty statistics)

in reality there are a lot of reasons people might stay in a war zone, voluntary or involuntary

[Edited on February 15, 2018 at 2:33 PM. Reason : kendrick has some things to say about this ]

2/15/2018 2:30:00 PM

That's a dangerous statement to make without evidence.

I'm sure it happens to some extent, when a specific squad/platoon/small unit kills civilians and after the fact says they thought they were insurgents or the enemy.

But that is not U.S. policy, it is not military doctrine and it is certainly not something the vast majority of our servicemen/women do or believe in.

The military doesn't seek to justify killing civilians. That's just an absurd premise.

[Edited on February 15, 2018 at 2:33 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2018 2:32:46 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?_r=1&hp#

Quote :

"Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent. Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program. This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants. But in interviews, three former senior intelligence officials expressed disbelief that the number could be so low. The C.I.A. accounting has so troubled some administration officials outside the agency that they have brought their concerns to the White House. One called it “guilt by association” that has led to “deceptive” estimates of civilian casualties. “It bothers me when they say there were seven guys, so they must all be militants,” the official said. “They count the corpses and they’re not really sure who they are.”"

2/15/2018 2:40:47 PM

Right, I get that. It sounds like you're disputing the notion that we can assume that anyone remaining in a combat zone, particularly after being told to leave, is a threat.

Good luck convincing people to join the military and fight for us if that's a doctrine you cannot follow. The next option then is send them in with tasers and have them politely ask people if they're there to kill them.

Bear in mind that in many cases these are people hiding grenades on children, tying TNT to the stomachs of women under their burkas (and in fact this actually was used in WW2 as well if I'm not mistaken, by the Japanese).

Sorry but I happen to think this doctrine is entirely reasonable, particularly considering we go out of our way as best as we can to avoid killing civilians.

2/15/2018 2:43:58 PM

Quote :

"Good luck convincing people to join the military and fight for us if that's a doctrine you cannot follow. "

Sounds great to me.

2/15/2018 2:47:19 PM