stating the obvious here, Trump's defense of acknowledging that there was corruption in Ukraine (go figure) and somehow putting his "investigation" into Biden under that umbrella of anti corruption, without any corroborating evidence, is still one of the major problems with this impeachment.

11/15/2019 11:02:50 PM

It's insane to me that you had people who were, call it "neutral," watched these hearings, and became LESS supportive. I mean on one hand I want to credit them for going in with an open mind but on the other, there is zero chance that someone who actually appreciates reality and credible, factual testimony could walk away less supportive than they were before hand.

Also really enjoyed the fact that someone compared the second phone transcript (April 2019) with the White House's official readout at the time (which stated that corruption was discussed) and pointed out that corruption is nowhere to be seen in the transcript. Which almost certainly indicates that corruption was in fact mentioned, specifically in the context of Trump asking for investigations of Biden.

And to round it out - the White House is stating that the transcript was incorrect because of one of the people who has testified in this inquiry. It's just comical at this point.

What completely baffles me is Giuliani in all of this. The dude has always been whacky, but I am not inclined to believe he ever intentionally did anything to hurt this nation (unlike Trump). So what is the deal - does he have dementia or something?

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 12:50 AM. Reason : a]

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 12:50 AM. Reason : aa]

11/16/2019 12:48:59 AM

Republicans don’t believe in the principles of democracy. It doesn’t matter to them how you win an election as long as you win.

They don’t seem to realize that the rules that have been put in place are a safeguard to protect freedom, so they don’t view breaking this rules as an attack on democracy and freedom itself.

A little irony since the gop always says the Democrats want a nanny state when the reality is republicans don’t believe people are capable of self governance and need to override rules and norms if they think will lose democratically.

Paraphrasing David Frum, when gop realizes they can’t win democratically, they’ll abandon democracy.

11/16/2019 1:13:17 AM

Also, can I just add - are Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes battling it out in some underground bachelor contest to see who gets to go home with Trump? I mean my god.

11/16/2019 1:26:00 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/15/politics/parnas-trump-special-mission-ukraine/index.html

Two big things today. Sondland lied in previous testimony he never talked to trump directly about Biden and Ukraine.

Trump and Giuliani were deeply involved in parnas and the other Russian guy. Trump sent them in a secret mission apparently.

11/16/2019 2:00:48 AM

Quote :

"It's insane to me that you had people who were, call it "neutral," watched these hearings, and became LESS supportive. "

Despite what Trump has said about "not watching" the proceedings, or that fox news repeatedly states that "it's boring", the Republicans have clearly put a ton of thought into their strategy here. This is their game 7. They are not fucking around.

It does not surprise me at all that neutral people are coming out less supportive of impeachment, because the republicans have put a ton of effort into portraying this as Trump fighting against corruption in a foreign state that the US is currently invested in.

Yes, in theory, the testimony from Kent and Taylor should have put this to bed, but then they came right back at those guys about corruption and they answered truthfully. Then they insinuate a link between Ukraine and the bidens to which the witnesses answer "I don't know."

It'd pretty impressive stuff to be fair, and very fun to watch.

11/16/2019 2:55:35 AM

"I can shoot someone on the street and nothing would happen to me."

Remember that?

Watch Trump get away unscathed and in no trouble at all after all is said and done vis-a-vis any investigations or proceedings into his 'alleged' wrongdoings.

11/16/2019 5:20:37 AM

If there's not a conviction I think the Dems hopes are this puts a dent in his reelection likelihood.

11/16/2019 8:59:39 AM

I know you want it, so you now get Burro's hot take

1) Dems don't have enough for public support for impeachment. In a saner time, it would be more than enough, but nothing about our current political environment is sane. That's part of why they are pushing the "bribery" angle, through some ridiculous jailhouse lawyering levels of logic (including suddenly becoming Originalists, albeit incorrect ones). What Cheeto did is not bribery, it's extortion; which is still a crime. It remains to be seen if they can provide enough damaging evidence to avoid blowback from a failed impeachment.
2) Republicans are damned good at fighting back, even if it's with infantile logic and non-sequiturs. The Dems need an answer to their lunacy.
3) What Cheeto did yesterday by tweeting negative things about a witness during her testimony is, itself, fucking impeachable. A horse head on her pillow would have been less obvious.

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 9:59 AM. Reason : ]

11/16/2019 9:59:44 AM

^Nail on the head, especially with respect to the bribery part which absolutely infuriated me when I heard Pelosi said that.

Quote :

"Trump and Giuliani were deeply involved in parnas and the other Russian guy. Trump sent them in a secret mission apparently."

Be careful with this one, at this point at least. Mueller had a cooperation deal with Manafort and we saw how that went. At the moment I'd not be surprised if Parnas was completely full of shit or just flat out so dumb he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Don't get me wrong, the entire body of testimony, evidence and Trump's relentless lying suggests to me Parnas is actually telling the truth but I won't fully buy it unless DOJ actually signs a plea deal with him. Then I'll know they corroborated it somehow.

Quote :

"It'd pretty impressive stuff to be fair, and very fun to watch."

Another incredibly wild aspect that appears to be working - they are going all in on the "this is all second hand" nonsense. When An Ambassador says "I overheard this" or "People told me that" the GOP is simply saying none of it is first hand knowledge. I bet that is dramatically bolstering their case, even though the purpose of all of this is to corroborate the people who DID have first hand knowledge. And on top of that, a lot of the people with first hand knowledge are being blocked from testimony (for the time being) by this nonsensical executive privilege claim.

In fact, considering EP can't be used to cover up a crime or wrongdoing, I kind of wonder if at the end of all of this the Dems flat out subpoena everyone being blocked and let the Supreme Court look at it and rule in their favor.

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 10:12 AM. Reason : a]

11/16/2019 10:02:52 AM

I mean, all you need to know about removal chances is from Bill Barr’s federalist speech last night. The sitting AG of the United States believes his duty to the Republic is to protect Trump and that all liberals and/or progressives are illegitimate. He explicitly states that defeating the left with any means possible is essential to his duty to the constitution.

It’s dark, dark, dark stuff. Very small steps from this language to outright fascism. And I suspect with the Durham investigation we will see that line blurred even more and some of Trumps opponents will be indicted, including Comey.

And on the other side, we have fucking halfwits like Joe Biden acting like this will all be gone in 12 months. Democrats, across the board, are completely and utterly unprepared for what is coming. Roger Ailes has created a monster that is going to live for a long, long time.

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 10:21 AM. Reason : X]

11/16/2019 10:20:36 AM

I dont agree that dems dont have enough support for impeachment, they had that before they started

They are failing massively by not pairing this with a strong media blitz though. I disagreed with Pelosi's decision to wait to start an investigation, but if the strategy was to wait for something easier for the public to understand why are they not pairing it with a constant ongoing media blitz? You cant rely on the media to cover this fairly on their own, because they will always default to giving equal respect to real democratic facts and nonsense republican responses

11/16/2019 11:19:25 AM

I don’t think they need a media blitz yet. I think people are following the hearings. An additional blitz makes it seem like this is all about getting trump, when it’s about the country and our democracy.

Here’s a great list of all the lies that have been revealed so far from trump:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/politics/fact-check-trump-dishonesty-ukraine-and-impeachment/index.html

11/16/2019 12:03:08 PM

Yovanovitch has a very soothing speaking voice. I feel terrible for her.

I think it's funny that Trump has attacked her as a "failure", but then the republicans use her questioning to basically explain the responsibilities of US Ambassadors and how they are employed by the State Department.

I also love how they counter the dems round of questioning about Trump with "but you are still an employee of the State Department with a pension, correct?"

Yes, and being called a failure by the POTUS is going to work wonders for her diplomatic career. He's blacklisted her for life.

11/16/2019 12:35:22 PM

Also, I think that the Republicans are legitimately stumped as to why trump would remove Her and then put Taylor in her spot, only for Taylor to go on record calling his strategies with aid and Ukraine as "Crazy."

It seems to me that this reveals Trumps inexperience with being an elected official as he naturally assumes that everybody he supports will do his bidding. In reality, these State department and CIA officials are about as non partisan as it gets. They work on gathering intelligence abroad and protecting the security and interest of the US. Playing politics prolly wouldn't even occur to them.

11/16/2019 1:36:11 PM

^^^ you can't let Republicans control the media and the media wont cover things fairly on their own, dems need a sustained coordinated media effort starting a week ago

11/16/2019 2:22:46 PM

to be fair, Schiff was an idiot to not use Trump's exact words when discussing the calls and transcripts. Trump's terminology, particularly things like "the Woman" and "do me favor" are damning enough. You can't make some shit up that's worse than that.

11/16/2019 3:05:53 PM

Can somebody explain to me how some of these witnesses have reportedly "refused" to show up by a subpoena? I thought that the whole point of a subpoena is having to be show up. Or is this a 5th amendment type of thing?

[Edited on November 16, 2019 at 3:33 PM. Reason : k]

11/16/2019 3:32:43 PM

You're adorable

11/16/2019 3:49:16 PM

There are a couple of things going on.

The witnesses claim they're exerting executive privilege, but they're not. You're still supposed to show up and declare executive privilege in response to specific questions. Executive privilege isn't as broad or absolute as claimed, either.

Congress can sue and receive a court order compelling the witness to testify. This takes time, resources, and plays into the White House's fight and delay strategy. Instead Congress has decided failure to appear is evidence of obstruction.

At least one of the witnesses has asked a court to make the decision for them: do I obey the Congressional subpoena or Trump's order to not testify? There's a legal term for this, but I can't remember it. Congress hasn't engaged the court on this (see above). Mulvaney tried to join, but failed. John Bolton's lawyer is also involved (but it's not Bolton's lawsuit).

Congress can find witnesses in contempt, but I believe that ultimately requires DOJ to do the prosecution. Unlikely.

11/16/2019 3:52:22 PM

So then, when a bonafide Trump supporter like Sondland agrees to testify when he could theoretically abstain from this subpoena, does that in turn imply that he is a witness for the republicans?

11/16/2019 3:58:57 PM

It implies he chose to obey the subpoena.

11/16/2019 4:04:25 PM

^^^ congress can arrest people, it's a power they should employ in the face of blatant obstruction

11/16/2019 9:21:29 PM

Trump apparently made an “unscheduled” trip to the hospital today— they’re trying to play it off as his annual exam.

Cynic in me says he’s just trying to garner sympathy like when he said Barron was hurt by impeachment. It could be he’s actually I’ll though...

11/16/2019 10:15:33 PM

the cynic in you ignores his appearance, eating habits, obvious stress levels and declining mental state? remember that time nixon was coughing up blood and had clots in his legs / lungs? obviously fake and obviously changed public opinion... a true ploy! same for dick cheney... all that dumbass heart stuff really made everyone warm up to him.

the kind of sympathy youre referring to does not / never did exist. in all seriousness though maybe he is laying the foundation for an "unrelated" resignation lol.

11/17/2019 9:22:25 AM

1. I, too, facepalm at the Democrats repeatedly making originalist and textualist arguments. The hypocrisy is unbelievable. Of course, they're doing my bidding in this case, and appealing somewhat to the jurisprudence that I believe to be correct, so I'm not gonna complain too much. It just makes me roll my eyes.

2.

Quote :

"congress can arrest people, it's a power they should employ in the face of blatant obstruction "

Yeah. I mean, they might end up with some pretty uncooperative testimony, but this is even worse. They ought to be putting motherfuckers' heads in vises.

11/17/2019 11:24:24 AM

Quote :

"Trump apparently made an “unscheduled” trip to the hospital today"

I just read that his BP was measured at 118/80. I'm gonna call BS on that one.

11/17/2019 2:28:03 PM

I bet Earl is a big Nunes guy.

11/19/2019 9:48:03 AM

I pray his BP reaches 200/150 and his evil heart fucking explodes out of his chest.

11/19/2019 11:52:32 AM

that fat shit eats cheeseburders all day. aint no way he's at 118/80

11/19/2019 11:59:25 AM

all his european sudafed probably doesn't help either

11/19/2019 12:20:51 PM

Funny how neither could deny being nevertrumpers and it makes sense because pretty much everyone is either a Trump suppoter or a nevertrumper.

She said 'i don't know the official definition of nevertrumper but i wouldn't self identify that way'

and he said 'i'm never partisan' which is not answering the question because its not a partisan issue. There are plenty of republican nevertrumpers.

Quote :

"I bet Earl is a big Nunes guy."

Hell no. The only Republican I respectfully disagree with is Rand Paul. At least he's consistent. The rest are either dumb or trash.

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 12:36 PM. Reason : rp3]

11/19/2019 12:35:39 PM

lol, check out this trump supporter who thinks rand paul is consistent

11/19/2019 12:39:21 PM

Quote :

" Kevin M. Kruse @KevinMKruse · 4m If the Republicans are going to press the argument that people have a duty to report their knowledge of crimes to the proper authorities, maybe they could find literally anyone other than Jim Jordan to make that case?"

valid point

11/19/2019 1:07:18 PM

It's already getting stale to listen to the GOP use their questioning time to spout out the same dumb talking points, over and over. Most of their time is being used to either brag about Trump's 'landslide' victory in 2016, paint him as a victim of a "witch hunt", or crying about how much they want to out the whistle blower. Pretty much every "question" I've heard them ask is one that's either unanswerable (i.e it's the witness's subjective opinion about something irrelevant) or completely unrelated to what they came to do: explain what they heard/experienced.

Not sure I can handle listening to this crap until Xmas.

11/19/2019 1:17:21 PM

On the other hand its annoying to hear the Dems spout the same rhetoric of it being morally wrong but there being no qpq. no bribery or evidence any of that actually happened.

This is a circus for both sides.

Never will go through the Senate.

These hearings are necessary to make sure no one was extorted, but this could have been handled in the private meetings, not this publicity stunt.

11/19/2019 1:49:37 PM

nO eViDeNcE oF tHaT hApPenInG

11/19/2019 1:51:50 PM

Damn, Fox News is now changing their tune a bit by saying that these accusations may have been "inappropriate, but not impeachable."

This is clearly not the message that the POTUS and certain members of the committee are willing to admit.

11/19/2019 1:55:03 PM

when this is all said and done that's the only argument they'll have left

11/19/2019 2:02:20 PM

Yeah, nothing to see folks. Huge nothingburger, just like Stone, Manafort, Flynn, Gates, etc.

11/19/2019 2:04:35 PM

Are we really supposed to believe Trump when he says that he didn't know Taylor?

I get him not knowing Kent and other State Department officials, but we know that he knew of Yovanovitch and Kent was her replacement as Ambassador to a foreign state that he had put a large amount of interest into.

11/19/2019 2:16:20 PM

Are we supposed to believe ANYTHING Trump says?

11/19/2019 2:26:10 PM

Its like OF COURSE trump's an asshole. OF COURSE trump is inappropriate (pretty much all the time) and OF COURSE he wanted an investigation from Ukraine. OF COURSE he wanted an opportunity to damage Biden No one is debating any of that. The debate has always been if this is something so egregious that its worth impeachment. I already state from the beginning that I think Trump has committed impeachable offenses but I don't think this is anywhere close to being one of those. Democrats wouldn't impeach him over the real crimes because they know they are complicit.

It really seems like the democrats are more loyal to Ukraine and Joe Biden than they are to the American people. They lie and say Trump risked American national security but Ukraine has NOTHING to do with our national security. American people never demanded this aid to Ukraine. Some people care about it but for those who do, I'm sure it isn't a top priority.

Imagine typical Americans out in the midwest like "life was good until Trump withheld aid from Ukraine" or "Every morning I woke up afraid I may not be able to send millions of dollars to Ukraine anymore" or "hunter biden deserved that job and i will not tolerate the president picking on him" or "no presidential candidate or their family should ever be investigated". I'd bet most Americans strongly disagree with all of those statements.

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 2:44 PM. Reason : what says the president can't do something within his power if it might help him later?]

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 2:53 PM. Reason : yall act like trump was gonna take the money for himself ]

11/19/2019 2:42:16 PM

ok trumper

11/19/2019 2:43:08 PM

Quote :

"They lie and say Trump risked American national security but Ukraine has NOTHING to do with our national security."

Having the POTUS sketchily ask the president of a shady, eastern Euorpean country to investigate one of its own citizens does have a lot to do with our national security.

The US already has its own people for investigating citizens living at home (FBI) and abroad (CIA/State Department). There is no need legitimate need to bring Ukraine into this investigation unless of course he had his own agenda that the FBI or State Department would not sign on.

11/19/2019 2:52:02 PM

So what happens when you need to investigate the FBI/CIA/DOS or when they are invested in the subject?

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 2:55 PM. Reason : aka deep state]

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 2:56 PM. Reason : its a lot like when the police shoot someone then investigate themselves internally. not gonna work]

11/19/2019 2:54:28 PM

congress

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 2:55 PM. Reason : aka how the government works]

11/19/2019 2:55:38 PM

Quote :

"the government works"

it doesn't. No member of the establishment is ever going to bother with something like that. They'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Whats so wrong with another country investigating what happened in said country. Do we investigate what other nationals do in the US or do we let their agencies handle the investigation in its entirety?

Like imagine letting Mexican investigators handle all cartel crimes in the US. Can you see how there is a clear problem with that due to corruption?

11/19/2019 3:00:16 PM

TIL congress has never investigated the FBI, CIA, DOS

[Edited on November 19, 2019 at 3:09 PM. Reason : muh deeeep staaaate]

11/19/2019 3:08:32 PM

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/19/778657017/impeachment-hearings-resume-with-white-house-state-department-witnesses

11/19/2019 3:30:04 PM