It was only a couple thousand more because Toyota was apparently losing about 10k on each one for the first few years.

3/3/2012 3:34:22 PM

[Edited on March 3, 2012 at 3:40 PM. Reason : J]

3/3/2012 3:40:02 PM

Ha, Igor, comparing the volt to the ipod/prius is a bit silly -- they both took what everyone else was starting to do and advanced the product far beyond anything else out there. Their sales figures justify the acceptance of a superior product. This isnt indie music where good bands dont get air play, good cars sell -- a super efficient, smooth handling, awesome sedan should sell well. But it's not. Also, the fact that the car needs a tax rebate of $7500 that comparable cars dont get (prius, diesels) to even be competitive is a bit laughable. Especially laughable when they offer that tax credit and still have miserable sales figures. I'd be curious to see how it would sell at the 40k it's listed at (without tax credit).

I made my point pretty clear that I like the idea and support the car's place in the automotive market, primarily due to innovation (please note that innovation and a monumental tag are miles apart). So, I'm not sure what elicited the obnoxious response. I didnt cite the fact the interior looks like an american sea of plastic or the press the battery has received. Just tried to talk about it. Youre welcome to talk shit about my car and Ill concede well made points.

To call it 'monumental' is a bit sensationalist dont you think? Though when you address someone who disagrees with you as motherfucker within the first 3 words of your response, you really come off like a defensive cave dweller with his blinders on which explains your repetitious talking points about how amazing this car is.

[Edited on March 3, 2012 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

3/3/2012 4:24:50 PM

So you're completely ignoring the fact that Prius sold less than 40k cars total in the US in the first 3 years, and that the car was being sold at a purposeful loss for the first few years, which GM cant do. It took a whild for people to get it, and was not hugely accepted as you are trying to state. And the Prius had a pretty good tax credit as well.

And btw... The Volt is a great driving and performing sedan and blows the doors off a Prius and every other highly efficient vehicle. The car is monumental as it is trying to couple a range extender to an electric car, so that it will appeal to people that would never accept pure electric.

Let's not forget it won EVERY single major award in 2011. How often does that happen?

[Edited on March 3, 2012 at 4:59 PM. Reason : Z]

3/3/2012 4:59:21 PM

As I said, nearsighted. Monumental it is, for reasons I listed a few pages ago. I made the iPod comparison because like the original iPod, Volt is a premium priced, poorly understood product from an established but struggling company that uses disruptive technology to bring fringe lifestyle into mainstream, and is poised to have a ripple effect far outside its industry. For those of you with less than 20/20 vision or <100 point IQ coeff, it is the car that lets middle class drivers from developed nations have their cake and eat it too.

As for the foul language, this is the Garage. Motherfucker you should really be more pissed off at the fact that i called you nearsighted. Now pass me a menthol.

3/3/2012 5:07:47 PM

Turkish jade OK?

Well, we shall settle this debate by waiting 3 years and seeing if it's a hit. Until then, no sense in trolling one another.

Deal?

3/3/2012 7:37:51 PM

Word. Seeing how this thread has been documenting the last four years starting with the concept, it'll be awesome to see what happens in the next four years.

Oh and Mindstorm spoke the truth on Page 1:

Quote :

"I'm wondering if it'll look some horrid offspring of a Malibu and that concept vehicle"

3/3/2012 8:13:41 PM

I also agree.

3/3/2012 8:55:07 PM

2 month statistics: http://voltowner.blogspot.com/2012/03/volt-mpg-and-statistics.html

3/3/2012 11:31:49 PM

Toyota sold 40k of those first Gen prii? Wow ...GM should be ashamed at their volt sales. That first Prius looked like a cheap echo.

3/4/2012 10:41:41 AM

If the tax credit could be given at the time of purchase, it would really help. Waiting over a year for $7500 is difficult for people that need that money to make the car attainable. That is why most of the people following the Volt in earnest expect the sales numbers to go up every month, as the time to wait for that refund is reduced and matters less.

3/4/2012 11:58:09 AM

Quote :

"The second post is a quick total cost comparison against a Volt that costs 40k, and a generic 25k car that gets 30 MPG."

A more accurate comparison would be to compare the Volt against the Cruze Eco.

Quote :

"And btw... The Volt is a great driving and performing sedan and blows the doors off a Prius and every other highly efficient vehicle. "

While I would prefer to drive a Volt over a Prius, to say it blows the doors off anything else is a bit of a stretch. You mentioned a Mini Cooper on the previous page. The driving experience of a Cooper is in a different league than the Volt.

3/4/2012 3:06:19 PM

Quote :

"A more accurate comparison would be to compare the Volt against the Cruze Eco"

The only car that offers similar capability to a Volt currently available on the US market is the Prius plug-in, which goes for 32-40k depending on the trim. There are a few others coming out in the next year or two, notably several models from Ford (Fusion Energi, Escape plug-in, and C-Max Energi) and the BMW i8, pricing for which has not been announced.

I think you guys are missing the point of what extened-range plug-in hybrids offer to a large percentage of population: the ability to drive purely on electric most of the time while having an electric car as their primary (and even only) vehicle. Pure electric cars such as Leaf and regular hybrids such as Cruze Eco are not in the same league as Volt.

3/4/2012 4:08:54 PM

The Prius 0-60 is 12 seconds. The Volt is 8.5. I think that constitutes as blowing it out of the water. Having driven both, the Prius is no comparison.

As Igor says, there is no real comparison to the Volt. Do you honestly think most people buying the Volt would be considering a Cruze? It is really a car without a comparison, which is a huge reason people are having a hard time with it. The plug in Prius is the closest, but id rather go strictly electric than buy that piece of shit.

3/4/2012 4:35:41 PM

Toque comparison: Prius 153. Volt. 273. Again, no comparison.

3/4/2012 4:46:08 PM

If we talking performance, you need to visit the realm of diesels. A new Golf TDI starts at 24k, has the option for DSG, does 8.6 0-60 and a mileage figure of ~31/41.

Electric sedan v diesel hatch -- not comparable on paper but for gas savers with torque, it's probably the closest comparison.

[Edited on March 4, 2012 at 6:16 PM. Reason : fat fingers]

3/4/2012 6:15:41 PM

The problem with diesels is that you give up any money saved with superior MPG in high fuel costs. I just saw diesel at $4.15 a gallon

3/4/2012 6:32:22 PM

I like the Volt and I would own one if you could get a decently equipped base model for around $25k. And if I had a place to plug it in. I think it really is a unique car in the market right now

3/4/2012 9:19:31 PM

It'll be interesting to see how the aftermarket will handle performance accessories for electric vehicles. To combine fuel efficiency with performance (and at the same time keep the seeating for 4 and pass the safety tests), you need high tech materials and breakthrough technology i.e. BMW i8, which is an expensive approach. But if you want just a faster car at expense of the range, it seems pretty fuckin easy to just stick a bigger electric motor into one of these for something like 5 second 0-60s and 5 mile all-electric range. Ever see a belt sander race?

[Edited on March 4, 2012 at 9:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/4/2012 9:27:25 PM

Thinking of picking up this new diesel-electric hybrid. Best of both worlds!

3/4/2012 10:02:00 PM

Gotta love Top Gear

3/4/2012 10:09:41 PM

The name Hammerhead Eagle i-Thurst is way better than Volt or Prius as well. People won't roll their eyes and mutter hippy under their breath at you.

3/5/2012 9:54:42 AM

Quote :

"Pure electric cars such as Leaf and regular hybrids such as Cruze Eco are not in the same league as Volt."

Depends on your point of view. From the point of view of saving money the Cruze Eco blows the Volt out of the water.

3/5/2012 11:56:00 AM

what league is the volt in??

I really think you're falling for marketing b.s.


I honestly think when i get a garage i may build an electric car. Just for BSing around and going to and from work. All it will really need to do is run 40 miles in a day... and i'd like it to do that as fast as possible... Thinking a type 3 vw with a ghia nose.

3/5/2012 12:05:21 PM

I think I have seen a ghia electric conversion on television. Was there one on Revenge of the Electric Car? That car would be hot.

3/5/2012 12:50:33 PM

there are conversion kits for vws that include transmission adapters etc.
it wouldn't be hard really.


http://e-volks.com/about.html

i was thinking awd with Siemens hub motors but i don't know if it would be worth the extra fuss.

3/5/2012 1:09:47 PM

Great article: Volt virtually sold out in america
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11443180/2/no-channel-stuffing-evident-for-chevy-volt.html

3/5/2012 2:06:30 PM

Well duh. They're a publicity stunt and GM has already shut the factory down. GM can't afford to manufacture them without the government's help and people can't afford to buy them without the government's help.

[Edited on March 5, 2012 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2012 2:10:44 PM

They sold 80% to electric companies.

3/5/2012 2:13:41 PM

Quote :

"GM had promised to build 60,000 vehicles per year, but they know that since they lose money on each one, not even mass production can make the Volt profitable. It's outright fraud. "

Guess what? The base model Ford Focus, one of the top selling cars in the country (and world) has been sold at a loss since it's introduction. It's not fraud, it's how large scale, high volume business works.

All this bullshit about "they only sold X number of cars, compared to X*1000 of the competition" completely ignores the known innovation s-curve, economies of scale, and ignores the impact of both on infrastructure, consumer cost, second hand markets, supply chain et al.

The Volt may not end up being the 20 million unit a year electric car. But between the Volt, Leaf Civic, Prius and Focus, there is finally a wave of movement that WILL sustain and grow hybrid and full electric vehicle ramp up over the next decade.

I firmly believe that we will see greater than 25% of operating residential drivers on hybrid/electric vehicles by 2025. And I think commercial fleets (which drive MUCH more volume) will be over the 50% threshold in the same timeline.

3/5/2012 2:22:43 PM

Not if the government goes broke first.

3/5/2012 2:25:19 PM

Quote :

"I firmly believe that we will see greater than 25% of operating residential drivers on hybrid/electric vehicles by 2025. And I think commercial fleets (which drive MUCH more volume) will be over the 50% threshold in the same timeline."

I agree. But I am worried about a particularly nasty boom and bust cycle of oil that is going to create some real problems.

"Egads, the price of gas is $5 a gallon"
"Lets go buy electric then."
"Oh crap, the economy is in the shitter, and we are getting laid off!"
"Well, at least we'll have our $2 a gallon gas again"
"Yeah, who needed electric anyways?"

Rinse and repeat. With every floor and every spike being a bit higher than the previous one. This is my theory.

I think once mass production brings cost down where electric is only a modest premium (25-35%) over regular cars, it will be here to stay. Until then, its a delicate dance.

[Edited on March 5, 2012 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2012 3:48:28 PM

Quote :

"Great article: Volt virtually sold out in america http://www.thestreet.com/story/11443180/2/no-channel-stuffing-evident-for-chevy-volt.html"

Hmm, that's weird given this article posted yesterday on Autoblog saying there is a 150 day supply of them:

Quote :

"Even with the new HOV-eligible 2012 Chevrolet Volt models heading to California and sales up in February, General Motors has reportedly decided to shut down production of the plug-in hybrid for five weeks because of overall sluggish sales. With a 150-day supply of Volts sitting on dealer lots around the country, this shutdown will temporarily lay off 1,300 employees. What's perhaps even more interesting is that this production hiatus comes after a lengthy "holiday" retooling break that only ended in early February. The upcoming shutdown is scheduled to last from March 19 to April 23. As a GM spokesman told MLive, "We're matching our production levels with demand and building to market."

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/02/gm-shutting-down-chevy-volt-production-for-five-weeks/

eh???

3/5/2012 10:39:26 PM

For those of you appealed by Volt's performance, Fisker Karma will soon be available to non-celebrities for only double the price. 403hp and 981 lb-ft electric motor and 260-hp gas-powered engine driving the generator for 50 miles of electric-only driving and another 250 gas-assisted miles.

3/6/2012 2:09:06 AM

yeah i saw one at last month's cars and coffee... it's really a sexy car.

3/6/2012 9:01:32 AM

^^That is a beautiful car. Too bad it has goofy 22" wheels, very limited interior space and almost weighs as much as a Suburban. 5300lbs or so

[Edited on March 6, 2012 at 9:13 AM. Reason : rear seats are probably only as spacious as the Volt's]

3/6/2012 9:12:48 AM

lol all true... l

3/6/2012 10:06:33 AM

holy shit!?! 5300lbs?

3/6/2012 11:03:27 AM

Would you all consider Volt worth the 40 grand if it looked like Karma, minus the "goofy 22 inch wheels" and the ridiculous interior finishes, but otherwise retained all Volt's innards?

I think the biggest mistake GM has made with the car is not pushing the styling enough, and adopting an econo-box look. These cars should look sexy and hopefully futuristic (but not too futuristic, like Aptera, which folded recently), then people would have no problem paying premium for them. BMW i8 is a good example. GM was probably banking on fleet sales too much.

3/6/2012 1:45:48 PM

^It wouldn't have been 40 grand if they had pushed the styling.

In addition to the Fisker being overweight and of little practicality, they've also recalled the whole line TWICE in a month. First because of batteries that could catch fire and explode, second because of more battery malfunction crap.

3/6/2012 2:02:53 PM

I have not personally purchased any sheet metal dies, but there can not be that much difference in cost to tweak the lines. Even Hyundai Elantra rocks some pretty sculptured bodywork these days.

3/6/2012 2:10:13 PM

Yup, car looks like a turd, sells like a turd. They were afraid that if they made it sexy it would "compete" with the Corvette. Same old Detroit bullshit.

3/6/2012 2:16:04 PM

If it stayed closer to the concept:

It might have sold better.

3/6/2012 3:55:05 PM

It couldn't have legally done so. The window height on the concept is too small to meet federal regulations, and being a mass market car, they couldn't have gotten an exemption.

And ^^ it does make a massive difference in tooling costs and production yield. Or at least it can.

3/6/2012 7:01:03 PM

The main reason they did not keep the concept's general shape was aerodynamics, which were apparently beyond terrible. But they could have made it look a lot more agressive and angular and still have adequate aerodinamics and reasonable cost. The proof? Cadillac Converj, which has been greenlighted for production. Sure, the base price will be higher, and they probably will offer some $2000 "premium interior" option with cheesy ass wood trim to make the car more profitable, but i'd like to see how much of a difference in cost will be attributed to the body panels. They don't look any harder to stamp than the Volt's.

3/6/2012 7:30:52 PM

^That car should have been the Volt. If they had produced those at a reasonable price they would be the top automaker in the world again. They'd have to build more factories to keep up. All that talk of window height and aerodynamics is bullshit they made up to excuse the fact that they wimped out and built an econobox that isn't economical.






[Edited on March 6, 2012 at 8:08 PM. Reason : .]

3/6/2012 8:00:58 PM

Not going to lie. Was dissapointed with the production Volt compared to the proto. But it has grown on me. Lots of room for improvement.

3/6/2012 8:47:42 PM

The Fisker Karma is not very practical and might as well be considered an exotic car vs a hybrid/economy car.

3/6/2012 10:26:16 PM

^it's for the rich people that want to buy something they think is helpful for the environment. Kind of like buying carbon offsets

Quote :

"These cars should look sexy and hopefully futuristic (but not too futuristic, like Aptera, which folded recently), then people would have no problem paying premium for them. BMW i8 is a good example."

BMW could slap their roundel on just about anything and it would sell. For proof look at most cars designed during the Bangle era.

3/6/2012 10:50:05 PM

^^^^ FYI, GM is currently the world's top automaker, again. However, we can agree that the Caddy pictures is hawt. So are several production Cadillacs, that is an example of a brand successfully turning around IMO.

3/7/2012 8:41:54 AM