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6/18/2005 10:03:24 PM

pretty good movie. I thought it started out better than it finished. THey should have found some way to make liam neeson batman. He is awesome. He takes over a scene. Not sure about the Ras al Gul character. His motives seem too petty and baffling for someone who is supposed to be pretty wise.

The batmobile was an abomination. Batman is supposed to be all about stealth and finesse and shit and he drives an ugly ass tank that wrecks half the shit on the road? They should have cut that whole chase scene. It was embarrassing.

The fights at the end were not as good at the beginning because you couldn't see what the hell was going on. I couldn't tell who was winning. The one on the ice at the beginning was cool, by comparison.

I think they did a great job of showing batman's psychological transformation. It took them a good while to get to your typical stupid action movie lines.

I guess they could have cut some of the action from the end, such as batman hanging on to the damn train for 15 fucking minutes). Some of that shit was just drawn out. It didn't make the movie better.
---

edit: well, just read some of the earlier pages. Looks like others also share doubts about neeson's character. I honestly like the cartoon version of ras al gul better. He seemed more bad ass (really, so does batman, but batman is young and just starting out, here). There was also a more palpable, gentlemanly respect between batman and ras in the cartoon. That worked really well. Wish they would have done it better in the movie.


[Edited on June 18, 2005 at 10:24 PM. Reason : kl;]

6/18/2005 10:16:20 PM

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"I was under the impression this movie was supposed to be based on Year One."

Who said it was based on Year One? There was no official statement sent out that said this movie would reflect Year One. The only thing that is true is it is an origin story of Batman where some of it may be taken from various comics and some of it may be made up for the movie. Is that so wrong? Is it wrong that different comic books stories themselves have varying details about things? Is poetic license not allowed in this instance? Who are you to even judge that?

Sonia said:

Quote :

"That completely leaves out Batman's detectiveness."

You mean the parts where he would stakeout and bug an apartment, listen to someone's conversation, sneak into Gordon's office and his house to find out information, give Tom Cruise's fiance some photos and info to motivate her into doing something, abduct Gordon's dirty partner and get information from him, sneak around the apartment in the narrows where the drugs were hidden, figure out that the poison that Crane sprayed him with was the same stuff he had when he was away? You mean to tell me that all of that is not detective work?

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"Like I said before, this film should've focused on more mundane crime. I thought Ra's al-Ghul would be a much more minor element and that the story would focus on Carmine Falcone, which would've been excellent."

It was about mundane crime. To Batman, it was about mundane crime. But mundane crime was just a cover for the real agenda which had to do with the whole League of Shadows balancing of society conspiracy thing. Ra's Al Ghul's part in the movie was a minor element, it was just a majorly important minor element. You can't have a puppet without the puppetmaster to pull the strings. And most of the time you don't actually see the puppetmaster doing his job.

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"Bruce Wayne studied physical sciences, forensic investigation, psychology, and other disciplines—not just martial arts—all while honing his body and mind to near perfection, and he did this over a period of 18 years, not just seven."

Whether or not you realized it, Bruce Wayne in the movie was smarter than he would let on. Sure it didn't show him studying all that stuff, but he had certain qualities that hinted that he was at least more cunning than people thought. He was possibly playing with Fox when Fox explained how he created the antidote to the poison. He obviously took advantage of Mr. Earl when talking to him about stock interests in the company. The seven years was from the time he left the meeting with Falcone to the time he came back from Gotham. Before that he was in college. When he came home for the parole hearing it had been 14 years since his parents were killed. So it's not that he wasn't educated or took interests in several disciplines, it's just they chose to specifically show the physical training he was taught because its a 2 hour movie where they can't drag on the boring stuff if they want people to like it.

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"His decision to become the bat was influenced by a childhood fall into the cave beneath the manor, the movie did that pretty well, but he finally decided on that symbol when a bat came crashing through a window in his father's study, not because Ra's al-Ghul dosed him with some kind of fucking drug."

He decided to become "Batman" while he was going through newspaper clippings to catch up on everything since he'd been outta the loop for 7 years and and figure out how and where to infiltrate Falcone's influence on the city. The bat found it's way into the house, Alfred mentioned something about them nesting in the caverns. Bruce finds batcave. The drug stuff was only used so that he could face his fear of bats, so that he could overcome his fear, and learn to use fear as a control device. When he's grinding the batarangs (which must have been annoying as hell) Alfred asks him "why a bat?" To which he reponds "because I'm afraid of them, and so my enemies can share my dread..." Which means he's using the bat as a symbol of fear to reign over and fight criminals

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"Lucius Fox was never complicit in supplying Wayne with the equipment he needed to become Batman. Lucius Fox never knew and never had anything to do with that kind of stuff anyway."

But he did get all the equipment from the company right? So what if Lucius is his facilitator? Does it really take away from the story? I think it's pretty ridiculous that only Alfred and less than a handful of people know who Batman is anyway. That's a pretty big secret to keep from everybody.

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"Thomas and Martha Wayne were murdered as they left a showing of a Zorro movie (usually referred to as The Mark of Zorro), not the opera. This may seem like a nitpick, but Bruce Wayne's Batman identity was strongly influenced by the character of Zorro."

And in this movie the opera had people dressed as bats and then Bruce Wayne grew up to be Batman. So what? I mean if the people in the opera dressed up as butterflies and then Bruce Wayne became Batman then you could make a more reasonable argument for the opera/movie/outing didn't influence the future of Bruce Wayne.

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"reducing Batman to his most base components doesn't give you Batman, it gives you just another vengeance-driven jackass in a cape."

And he's not just another vengeance-driven jackass in a cape? Just because he's the most popular one of the lot doesn't mean he's any different than the other ones?

FroshKiller said:

Quote :

"Gotham fucking City is not a poor man's New York with a monorail, it's a brooding, decaying Gothic metropolis littered with gargoyles and ridiculous oversized props...I understand and can sympathize with attempts to "update" the mythos...But Batman is more resistant to the rigors of time (he's the second longest-running character in American literature) than Spider-Man or the Punisher, and there are smarter ways to update him that would avoid ruining the formula that's worked so well for so long."

Times have changed, gothic influence is dead, giant gargoyles and monuments make no sense for modern times. Are they artistically beautiful and stunning? Yes, but I think they over did it with the previous movies and didn't want to resemble anything like the previous movies with this one so they went with something more modern day and less fantastical without making it totally realistic. I'm sure marko is sad about it too...




If anything is wrong with the movie, it's the editing and pacing. I'm not talking about the fight scenes and the shakiness. The pacing seemed very ADD. They'd have one scene, cut into another scene, go back to the first scene to continue the conversation and end the scene. It was just too much information to organize and comprehend in too little time. Details would get lost and therefore make things hard to follow and/or understand. So if the movie was hard for you to follow and you're confused about the plot (as I think Frosh is to an extent) go see it again before you argue the story. But then again, we shouldn't have to do that if the movie is supposed to be good. We should be able to follow it, it's freakin Batman for crying out loud. We all know the story, or think we know it, so when there's something foreign to what we think we already know we get all bent outta shape about it.




If anyone else has any questions or concerns about the movie that don't make sense to you I can answer them for you

6/18/2005 10:27:11 PM

^man, too long. Let's face it: you have bad tastes.

6/18/2005 10:42:51 PM

wow. some people just got majorly pwnted. gg!

6/18/2005 10:53:27 PM

i think michael caine did a good job but why didn't they use Michael Gough again?

too old or are they just distancing themselves from the previous movies?

6/18/2005 10:55:12 PM

hmmmm im disappointed

the movie needed more shirtless bale scenes

no actually i enjoyed the movie and i thought it was a lot better than the others

the others did seem more cheesy i guess but still good to watch

6/18/2005 11:20:56 PM

prolly too old to be viable for a fresh franchise

caine has like 15-20 years on him...

6/18/2005 11:49:52 PM

gg CharlieEFH

6/19/2005 12:13:09 AM

I was going to respond to this:

Quote :

"Has a single one of you stupid fucks bothered to read anything I've posted?"

but CharlieEFH summed out my thoughts and then some. Although I'd add, "Most of your complaints are petty bullshit, the spirit of the characters survived most of the changes they made and the movie works well by itself.

6/19/2005 12:26:15 AM

So I just saw the movie and all I can say is.....DAMN!
That movie was really good. Bravo to this new Batman movie

6/19/2005 12:35:19 AM

i liked it

i thought the fear gas effects were totally badass (especially the horse)

the tumbler was pretty cool actually, i thought i would hate it at first but i turned out to like it

and katie holmes didn't suck as bad as i thought she would

6/19/2005 12:38:21 AM

I liked the movie incredibly. I don't know much about the original comic story, but this was fine with me. I wish they had picked someone other than Katie Holmes.

6/19/2005 9:54:23 AM

btw
the more i think about it

the more i love the ferrarri-2girls-swimming scene

because you know he was thinking "i'm not going to enjoy this" and then, well 2 european supermodels buck naked in your exotic sports car can probably make even bruce wayne crack a smile....

and when he bought the hotel, i was like BLING BLING

6/19/2005 10:46:26 AM

http://chud.com/reviews/3347
This guy says it well:

Quote :

"Batman Begins is a movie divided sharply in half. One half is a movie that director Christopher Nolan understands. The other is a movie that he wishes he did, or that he’s trying very hard to understand. The first half of Batman Begins is a drama, a story about a young man who has traveled thousands of miles from his home to find himself and his place. On the other side of the world from his wealthy American home, Bruce Wayne finds the mysterious Ducard, a man who becomes a new father to him. Ducard takes Wayne under his wing and trains him in the ways of the ninja, promising him a way to bring the justice he so badly wants to the world. All of this is intercut with the story of the young Bruce Wayne and the murder of his parents, and it works. It’s easy to forget that it’s the singer, not the song, and in the hands of a storyteller like Nolan the complex and dark story gains new resonance and meaning. He makes it fresh. Which is what makes the second half of the film so disappointing. Having discovered that Ducard and his League of Shadows seek nothing less than the destruction of Gotham City because of its lawlessness, Wayne returns home to save it from the inside. He begins to collect the items that will define his alternate persona of Batman, and with every gadget and gizmo he gains, Nolan loses the thread of the film a little more. The director understands the psychological turmoil of Bruce Wayne as he travels abroad – once that turmoil goes from subtext to plain text in the form of Batman, Nolan doesn’t know what to do with it anymore."

[Edited on June 19, 2005 at 11:58 AM. Reason : kl;]

6/19/2005 11:57:53 AM

sorry lowjack. cant agree with ya. nice try though. let a thread full of lovers of this movie enjoy it already.

For anyone that hasnt seen it yet, the bottom line is......dont listen to anyone in this thread - you will like it. go see it.

6/19/2005 1:10:38 PM

I FIND PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WHO AGREE WITH ME
SO IT LOOKS LIKE I'M BEING OPEN MINDED WHEN I AGREE WITH THEM

how the fuck can nolan not understand his own movie

its not like people try to explain Memento to him...

6/19/2005 1:23:35 PM

Quote :

"I FIND PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WHO AGREE WITH ME SO IT LOOKS LIKE I'M BEING OPEN MINDED WHEN I AGREE WITH THEM"

non sequitur much? I am sorry that someone on the internet who has a different opinion than yours hurt your feelings, though. No need to get so defensive -- it's just a movie.

Quote :

"how the fuck can nolan not understand his own movie"

It happens, especially since batman is hardly his story

[Edited on June 19, 2005 at 1:49 PM. Reason : 456]

6/19/2005 1:36:13 PM

I'll say it once and I'll say it again, there are now officially 3 Batman movies; the first two and this one.

It wasn't ground breaking, perspective changing, orgasmic or whatever the fuck Jonathon and others expected it to be. Rather it was very entertaining and well worth the money I spent to see it.

6/19/2005 2:04:58 PM

i agree with something someone said earlier

the pacing was out of control

6/19/2005 2:09:23 PM

Quote :

"Having discovered that Ducard and his League of Shadows seek nothing less than the destruction of Gotham City because of its lawlessness, Wayne returns home to save it from the inside."

That's not why he goes home though. He thinks he's killed Ra's Al Ghul and totally stopped him from doing whatever they were going to do to Gotham. He goes back to Gotham to save Gotham from itself.

6/19/2005 2:25:16 PM

Quote :

"It happens, especially since batman is hardly his story"

good thing this isn't truly batman canon now isn't it...

6/19/2005 2:35:26 PM

SPOILER

I just liked how at the end Batman and the Commissioner were basically like "Well, we lost the Narrows, but screw em they're poor and worthless! Yuk yuk yuk!"

I mean it's not like they're gonna wrangle everybody up and inject em individually.

6/19/2005 3:07:06 PM

dude

did you even pay attention to that scene?

gordon was like--"well, we haven't found crane and all the inmates they let loose"

and Batman was like--"we will "

i mean, what else is there for Batman to do now? (other than go after the Joker)

they realize things won't happen in a day, but in time Gotham can and will be rebuilt in all forms

[Edited on June 19, 2005 at 3:21 PM. Reason : asdsdfsgfhgjkl;']

6/19/2005 3:16:42 PM

Quote :

"how the fuck can nolan not understand his own movie"

It wouldn't be the first time that someone directed a movie without really understanding it. Did you see LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINAY GENTLEMEN? Or BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER? NATURAL BORN KILLERS?

6/19/2005 3:45:36 PM

buffy was before its time though

6/19/2005 6:06:03 PM

no i understand that maybe he doesn't understand the mythos or the legacy, basically he might not understand "Batman"

but to say he doesn't understand "Batman Begins" just doesn't make sense to me...

6/19/2005 6:18:55 PM

$71 million is not that impressive

not impressive at all...

6/19/2005 7:57:45 PM

On a related note, I just finished The Long Halloween. Much much better than Year One, and it would make a good movie if it weren't so long.

6/19/2005 8:53:05 PM

i need to read that

i read the hush series
not realizing how important knowledge of "the long halooween" is

i mean, it wasn't vital
but it would have been ncie

6/19/2005 8:57:10 PM

Hmm.

I'm thinking about Hush or The Dark Knight Returns next.

But my nigga Ra's is in Hush, right? I mean, I know there's a Hush action figure of him.

Not that I'm into that shit.

6/19/2005 9:02:14 PM

uhm....

i actually think he was the only one in hush who batman never fought

i could explain why he gets mentioned
(and i forget if they question him)
but that might give away the shlocky twist they try and throw in
(the same twist i think is being thrown into another batman run right now... )

6/19/2005 9:34:35 PM

Re: Charlie-- That's sneaking around like a ninja, not detective work. My gripe was that a superfluous origin story that leaves out the Law & Order aspects was unsatisfying to me. You're allowed to like the movie. My disagreement shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the movie.

6/20/2005 8:22:58 AM

I don't see how wire-tapping and clue handing is ninja work

6/20/2005 8:28:00 AM

in the Hush comic run, Batty runs Ra's through with a scimitar

6/20/2005 8:43:54 AM

^^ Look I've played every ninja video game there is. That is ninja stuff, not Law & Order.

Unless the ninja were being forcefully recruited by the CIA and manipulated to do Agent Foster's dirty work.

6/20/2005 9:07:12 AM

"Clue handing"? Did you seriously just offer up "clue handing" as an example of serious detective work on Batman's level?

6/20/2005 9:09:11 AM

6/20/2005 9:27:46 AM

Hey Frosh, could you do me some clue handing as to what Bats book I should read next? I've already read Year One and The Long Halloween.

6/20/2005 10:06:36 AM

Read Dark Victory next. You can borrow my copy. Hell, I can load you up with TONS of Batman material.

6/20/2005 10:07:27 AM

Cool. I think I might just run up on Foundation's Edge this afternoon.

6/20/2005 10:26:02 AM

Capitol Comics is usually cheaper.

6/20/2005 10:39:32 AM

See, this is stuff I ought to know.

6/20/2005 10:49:40 AM

6/20/2005 10:57:58 AM

Quote :

"Re: Charlie-- That's sneaking around like a ninja, not detective work"

ninjas and detectives do essentially the same job

one just kicks more ass than the other....

6/20/2005 11:26:41 AM

Quote :

"Drunken billionaire burns down mansion."

6/20/2005 11:31:43 AM

You are a goddamn idiot. Sherlock Holmes and Dick Tracy don't do anything like Ryu Hyabusa and Rikimaru.

6/20/2005 11:34:05 AM

cops, detectives, spies, and ninjas are all the same when it comes down to it

they differ in their means to acheive their goals



[Edited on June 20, 2005 at 11:39 AM. Reason : 2 thoughts + 1 sentence = bad]

6/20/2005 11:38:18 AM

ninjas are assasins

6/20/2005 11:39:36 AM

Holy shit I can't believe he just typed that out.

Next thing we'll hear is that pirates and ninjas are the same thing, what with the looting and stuff. Pirates just do it in boats and ninjas do it in the dark.

6/20/2005 11:44:48 AM