BMW is testing out their all electric hybrid this year for invited participants for a 2 year lease, but it is likely to be a token effort that goes no where like the electric mini cooper trial 2 years ago.

3/7/2012 8:57:06 AM

Quote :

"it's for the rich people that want to buy something they think is helpful for the environment. Kind of like buying carbon offsets"

Someone has to pay for new tech until it can be manufactured on a large scale so all us broke ass people can afford it. Nothing wrong with rich people making a certain statement. In fact, a lot of things rich people buy are about making a statement and not the practicality of it. There are timepieces that cost more than that car, and they still sell. AND you have to wind them up every night.

Quote :

"BMW could slap their roundel on just about anything and it would sell. For proof look at most cars designed during the Bangle era."

Did you even see/read about that car? How the fuck is it not a perfect example what a first gen electric car should be?

3/7/2012 10:16:54 AM

^With the Karma I'm mainly referring to the fact that it weighs 5300lbs, is huge, has very little cargo space and limited rear seating leg room. Its fantastically styled...and that's about it. It's gross opulence has very little to do with being "green". That was the gist of my comment.

I'm quite familiar with the i8 as it's been shown off for several years it now seems. It's more stylish and better than a lot of their other recent efforts but no, I (personally), find it ugly and in the market it will compete it looks are highly valued.

3/7/2012 12:55:33 PM

there's so much cynicism and negativity in this thread...

but it seems that's par for the course whenever hybrids and electric cars are being discussed.

exhibit a: message_topic.aspx?topic=610159

3/7/2012 6:56:45 PM

Quote :

" The proof? Cadillac Converj, which has been greenlighted for production."

I 100% guarantee you that the car you pictured will NOT be what the final production vehicle looks like. They will decrease the windshield angle and increase the vertical length of the side windows (lowering the top of the side body panels).

I will put $40 on it that the Converj will not ship with the same body panels or glass as pictured. Every damn concept at least for the last decade goes through this. You minimize the glass to make it look more streamlined in the concept, and it grows larger in production to meet federal safety regulations.

3/7/2012 8:52:52 PM

visibility is pretty important, no?

3/7/2012 10:09:55 PM

It's being reported that the Holden Volt will cost over $62,000 (adjusted to us dollars). I wonder why the American version is so much cheaper.

It looks like no one makes a good body kit for the Volt yet. The shape isn't so bad, it's just that gawdawful malibu front fascia and the Aztek taillights. And what's up with that shitty black plastic below the windows? It looks like the show car had glass at the waistline. Since that didn't pass federal muster, apparently they installed that horrific early 90's "they'll never know it's black plastic and not real tinted glass" crap. If they had just painted the doors all the way up it would have looked more muscular. A car designed by committee.

Add to that the gaping body seams, protruding door handles, elephant ear mirrors and ricer 5 spoke rims...it's like they weren't even trying to make it aerodynamic. A freaking volkswagen passat from the 90's has a better coefficient of drag.

A custom body shop could make the Volt into a real beautiful machine...and improve the performance.

[Edited on March 7, 2012 at 11:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2012 11:38:34 PM

I don't know why it will be more expensive as an Aussie car. Just a complete guess, but since they build the Volt only in the U.S., it is possible they are slapping a lot more tarrifs on it. I dont know if they ship everything to Australia, or just select cars.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The black below the window line I do not believe it plastic. Pretty sure it is same material as the door, as it is painted and feels the same when I touch it. But I'll go knock on it this afternoon and report back.

My main complaint is that they didnt paint the skirts. I do not like plastic unpainted skirts.

The coefficient of drag is as good as, or better than most Prius's at .28. It puts it in the top 25%, which isnt bad.



[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 10:51 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 10:37:41 AM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/03/05/when-nobody-wants-to-buy-the-best-car-of-the-year/

Quote :

"GM had expected to sell about 10,000 Volts in 2011, its first full year on the market. Instead, it sold 7,600. It recently backed off a target of 45,000 for 2012, after selling 603 in January and 1,023 in February. Still, the Volt outsold two other EVs on the market: the Nissan Leaf (478 in February) and the Mitsuibishi i (44). Traditional hybrids, on the other hand, did OK, with about 36,000 sold in February, or 3 percent of all cars sold in the U.S. About three-quarters of them were Toyota Priuses. The Volt’s hefty pricetag, $41,000, no doubt scared away some buyers. Even with a $7,500 federal tax credit, it’s a lot to pay for a four-seat Chevrolet. The lease price isn’t bad at all — $350 a month, with $2,500 down — but consumers have somehow missed that marketing pitch, and that’s GM’s fault."

3/8/2012 11:21:33 AM

The Volt outsold a LOT of hybrids in the first of the year, not just electric cars.

I had a meeting with Senator Hagan's office. I told them they don't need to increase the tax subsidy. They just need people to be able to get it at the time of purchase, much like cash for clunkers did. $7500 is a lot of money to wait a year for, and during the mean time, you are having to finance a 40k car instead of a 32.5 car. Makes a big difference, which is why I believe the sales for this car pick up every month as you get closer to next tax year. In my situation, it will be about 14 months from the time I purchased the car from when I get a refund.


[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 11:30:42 AM

Does the subsidy work for the Leaf too? I thought the Leaf would sell better since it's cheaper...why didn't that happen?

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2012/03/06/nissan-not-worried-by-leaf-sales.html

Quote :

"Leaf buyers skew male, have an average household income of $131,000 and tend to be between 49 and 52, said Jones. And they are not as "green" motivated as you might think. "The technologists in them score very, very high — more so than the environmentally conscious individuals," he said."

Interesting. The haters are always saying that people are buying these cars to be environmentally conscious, and then proceed to poke holes in the strawman they created. Or they say people buy these cars to save money, and then poke holes in that. Technologists? Poke holes in that.

3/8/2012 11:42:58 AM

Why don't we give the money directly to GM...then they can pass the savings directly on to the customer.

3/8/2012 12:02:58 PM

Yes, the subsidy works for the Leaf. The Leaf is a good deal cheaper than the Volt. I 'think' the Leaf is being artificially constrained right now because of production shortages until the Tennessee plant is opened later this year. I only show 641 in inventory in the entire United States, which is a REALLY small number given the thousands of dealerships. The Leaf has its own unique barriers. In my opinion, most people that buy a Volt are not going to be super interested in a Leaf, and vice versa. The philosophy of each car are very opposed to one another.

I had a good example, yesterday, or why i am glad I had a Volt. I drove downtown Raleigh to go to Hagan's office, then went to Chapel Hill. All electric, and over 45 miles. When I got to work, I found that the area I charge at was being blocked for the day. There were NO alternatives. Had I not been able to charge, with a Leaf, I would have been pretty nervous commuting the 35 miles back home. Probably would have made it, but wouldnt have been pretty.

Quote :

"Why don't we give the money directly to GM...then they can pass the savings directly on to the customer. "

That pretty much happens with a lease. If you don't qualify or have federal tax liability of $7500, getting a lease is the best way to capture that.


[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 12:03:24 PM

Fantastic! Meanwhile, homemade biodiesel is still illegal.

Speaking of which, do you pay your proper road tax? If not, do you add this burden to society into your cost of ownership calculations?

We love you, Carzin. We want to make you stronger. How can you become an effective e-car advocate if you can't counter criticisms from dumbass like me?

[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 12:08:11 PM

Quote :

"http://I will put $40 on it that the Converj will not ship with the same body panels or glass as pictured. Every damn concept at least for the last decade goes through this. You minimize the glass to make it look more streamlined in the concept, and it grows larger in production to meet federal safety regulations."

Even if it will have the window profile equivalent to CTS, that's not much taller than Converj concept.

Quote :

"A custom body shop could make the Volt into a real beautiful machine...and improve the performance"

Body kit wont do much. Especially improving the performance. Athough I agree on a lot of the points you've made about the concept's styling details not carrying over very well. Like you said, the styling was fucked up by the committee.


[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 12:23:44 PM

I don't know. The Volt has a cd of 0.28. The EV1 had a cd of .19.

Just wait until the hypermilers get their hands on this thing. A pointy nose, boat tail, taped seams, backup cameras, better/covered wheels/rubber and a gutted interior could do amazing things. It also has a ton of steel in it that could be holed out or replaced by carbon fiber.

I'll admit that I'm really excited by the hotrodding potential. But hotrods only get built from cheap, popular cars. So here's hoping, I guess.

3/8/2012 12:40:19 PM

There is no current method of me to pay road tax. Right now, I'm obviously not supporting the road system. However, since a good source of road wear and tear comes from super heavy tractor trailers to haul all that gas you guzzlers need to burn, its probably a wash

I support the legislature proposing a reasonable road tax for EV cars, but it has to be reasonable, as especially the Volt drivers typically have a mix of gas and electric. I am near the far extreme case of burning almost no gas.

BTW. Just went a looked. The black panel is an overly. It is probably some form of plastic, but I can't be sure. When I knock on it, it feels no less solid than the door panel.

[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

3/8/2012 12:57:12 PM

I'm quite in favor of the federal government doing away with the gas tax and coming up with another method to financially support the roads. Seems like some sort of formula that takes into account distance driven and vehicle weight would be the most logical way.

3/8/2012 1:33:17 PM

Don't make fun. I didnt ask for this. My friend is a professional photographer, and wanted to do a few shots with the car. I think it looks pretty nice:



[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM. Reason : ,]

3/8/2012 1:46:13 PM

Holy HDR batman. I'm pretty sure some of those colors don't even exist in real life. It's the first good side profile shot I've seen of the car, though. I'll have to bust out the photochop later. I have some aerodynamic flow software from my electric vehicle days that I can run it through, see where the weak spots are.

3/8/2012 3:02:40 PM

I like the pic

[Edited on March 8, 2012 at 3:16 PM. Reason : MINUS THE UNC SHOUTOUT!!!!!!!! ]

3/8/2012 3:15:51 PM

^^nice

3/8/2012 3:34:14 PM

He wants to shoot one in front of the nuclear plant, which could be cool. Going to work my progress energy contacts

3/8/2012 3:38:17 PM

http://www.plugincars.com/comparing-toyota-prius-early-years-chevy-volt-114043.html

3/14/2012 11:13:20 PM

https://twitter.com/#!/EllenReckhow/status/182479253714124802/photo/1

They had a dedication of a new charging station at main library in Durham

3/21/2012 10:56:45 AM

I dont think I believe this, but there is a guy on gm-volt that does a lot of analytics on Volt sales. He seems to believe that there will be over 2500 Volts sold in March, which I would consider outstanding. Any increase month over month, I'll be happy with, as long as it is a steady climb.

3/21/2012 2:27:35 PM

^^ i can't believe they went through all that trouble and didn't install a charger that could take care of more than one car. These librarians need to take their spectacles off every once in a while.

Quote :

"He wants to shoot one in front of the nuclear plant, which could be cool. Going to work my progress energy contacts"

If that doesn't work out, composite images are really not hard to to do these days.

[Edited on March 21, 2012 at 8:21 PM. Reason : .]

3/21/2012 8:20:09 PM

Might be of interest... My current gas savings compared to other vehicles.

3/26/2012 2:31:44 PM

The beautiful car that could have been...

3/26/2012 2:40:28 PM

^^Ahh, so compared to the regular Cruze you're saving around $500 every 3 months. So it will only take you about 6-7 years to break even then?

3/26/2012 3:55:07 PM

^^^ Interesting. ~$222/month savings compared to the Cruze...so in about 5 years you will have covered the difference in purchase price between the two (with the current tax credit), with all savings after as gravy...plus own a vehicle with a higher resale price too. Doesn't seem like it's as bad financially as all the haters make it out to be.

You're averaging ~21,000 miles per year though, so the savings are higher for you than average.

3/26/2012 4:09:44 PM

Well, its ~ $180 a month in savings. After the tax credit, financing a 32,500 car at 5 years and 3.5%, your monthly payment is $591. A 25k car financed at that rate is $454. If you take the money saved in fuel off the price of the Volt payment, you end up with $411, actually saving you about $40 a month over a much cheaper car. And despite the rhetoric, I am not actually having to wait 5 years to make up the difference. It is made up every month.

Point being, these cars are not far off at today's gas prices for being affordable to the masses. In my case, since I drive so much, its already cheaper. For those that drive 12-15k a year, the case is harder. They would be better off to lease.

^ After the car is paid off, that is when the big savings come into play.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:12:46 PM

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:18 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:21 PM. Reason : oops i misread the chart and thought the numbers were savings, not the cost to drive the cars]

3/26/2012 4:14:04 PM

The figure up there was for basically 11 weeks of use. If I extend it to 12 weeks, we get a gas cost of $631. You must subtract the electricity cost associated with charging the car (let's just say $90). That gets us to $541. then divide that by 3, and we get $180.

The information also has nothing to do with financing. I am considering that all equal, and focusing on just the fueling costs.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 4:16:25 PM

Quote :

"A 25k car financed at that rate is $454. If you take the money saved in fuel off the price of the Volt payment, you end up with $411, actually saving you about $40 a month over a much cheaper car. And despite the rhetoric, I am not actually having to wait 5 years to make up the difference. It is made up every month."

Pretty good deal. But isn't the Cruze under $20k?

3/26/2012 4:58:30 PM

^ without many options it can be...you'd have to equip it similar to a volt to compare.

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cruze/2012/

3/26/2012 5:00:55 PM

The Volt is not a Cruze. It also isn't a Prius. It's features compare nicely with a 25k car, which is why I use that as a reference. Most Volt owners are fairly amused people compare it to the Cruze, when practically none of us would consider buying a Cruze. It nullifies the argument. The better comparison is to something with very high MPG like the Prius, but the Prius doesn't compare in most metrics either.

Best to compare the Volt to a price, which can be done without having to draw other comparisons. In this case, 25k is fairly average for a car, which means if the Volt can compare nicely, it isn't an expensive as it initially seems.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 8:43 PM. Reason : M]

3/26/2012 8:33:48 PM

Its nice that you chuckle about the vehicle comparision, however they share the same platform and the same suspension. The Cruze has 95 cubic feet of interior room, the Volt 90. Cruze has 15.4 cubic feet of trunk space, the Volt 10.6. The Cruze Eco hits 60 in 8.9, the Volt 8.7. The Cruze gets 42 mpg hwy while the Volt gets 40 after the battery runs out.

If you're looking to buy the new vehicle with "innovation technology" then yeah there's not a lot to cross shop it to. But if you're looking for cheap transportation with good gas mileage then yeah, the comparison is quite valid.

3/27/2012 12:06:06 AM

These two shared the same platform and suspension, and had similar interior volume and cargo space. I am sure that a horse could pull both of them equally quickly once the gasoline ran out in the first one. But luckily there were people back than looking to buy a vehicle with poorly understood "innovation technology" instead of getting the fastest chariot, the biggest wagon, or the cheapest buggy for their horses.


[Edited on March 27, 2012 at 9:46 AM. Reason : FIrst time people didn't HAVE to have a horse. ]

3/27/2012 9:36:58 AM

3/27/2012 9:40:02 AM

I'm just saying, they may be similar but at the same time not comparable.

[Edited on March 27, 2012 at 9:44 AM. Reason : Plug-in prius is comparable but Cruze is not]

3/27/2012 9:43:15 AM

You can't cherry pick what you what to compare and exclude the rest. People that are buying Volts now are doing it for a lot more reasons than just saving money in fuel. They simply don't want to burn gas. And you can't do that in a Cruze. But if you want to compare the Eco, since you are using it as an example, let's look at where the Cruze ECO falls short (remember, these are options for the ECO since you are using its efficiency range. I can play the same game with the other models)

Where does the Cruze ECO fall short:

Does the Cruze have 4 wheel disc brakes? Not available on the ECO
Does the Cruze have a 149 HP engine with 273 lbs of torque? No, it has a 138 horsepower engine and 123 lbs of torque
Does the cruze have a 1 speed automatic (or CVT)? No (CVTs are an expensive and considered a premium option. The Volt technically doesnt use a CVT, but what it has is better than a CVT)
Does the Cruze have capacitive touch screen displays and controls? No
Is the Cruze even in the same ballpark for interior noise levels under operation? No
Does it have RFID keyless entry? No
Are heated mirrors available? No
Is climate control available? No (just single zone knob and button)
Are leather seats available? No
Are heated seats available? No
Does the Cruze have front park assist? Not that I can tell. I think only rear
Are the headlights projectors? No
Are rear view mirror turn signals available? No
Is an automatic dimming rear view mirror available? No
Does the car have vanity mirrors for the driver and passenger? No
Does the car have keyless start? No
Does it have a harddrive for music recording? No
Does it have onstar free for 3 years? No
Do you get your own personal Chevrolet advisor with the car? No

So, in a nutshell, if you want many of the items that are stock, or available as an option, you can't get them on a Chevy Cruze ECO. And you can't drive 95% of the time without burning gas in anything else out there (except a pure electric), which is the biggest thing of all.

My acquaintence on Fox News summed up most of my views pretty well:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1529856944001/can-the-chevy-volt-help-win-the-war-on-terror/

3/27/2012 9:46:17 AM

Hey it's like I said, if you're just looking for cheap transportation its valid but if your reason is different then yes not a comparison.

Quote :

"Does the Cruze have a 149 HP engine with 273 lbs of torque? No, it has a 138 horsepower engine and 123 lbs of torque Does the cruze have a 1 speed automatic (or CVT)? No (CVTs are an expensive and considered a premium option. The Volt technically doesnt use a CVT, but what it has is better than a CVT)"

LOL, oh really? The Volt weighs about 600lbs more than the Cruze, so as my 0-60 comparison shows who cares which one is more powerful if their acceleration is near identical? CVTs premium? Make me laugh please, as nobody that holds vehicles in high regards view CVTs in a favorable light.

But yes you got me on a lot of those other gadgets, those do add value to the Volt though for the life of me I don't understand why anyone needs parking assistance on a car of that size?

EDIT: Don't get me wrong I would pick a Volt over a Prius or Leaf in a heartbeat.

[Edited on March 27, 2012 at 9:55 AM. Reason : r]

3/27/2012 9:52:15 AM

Quote :

"Make me laugh please, as nobody that holds vehicles in high regards view CVTs in a favorable light."

Not having gearshifts is a luxury item, especially when that comes without the baggage and maintenance of a traditional CVT. What exactly is good or efficient about having to change gear ratios? Its necessary in a traditional motor due to the engine speed, but not necessary with an electric drivetrain. Again, technically, the Volt is not a CVT, but it is the closest comparison. The car feels more like a jet taking off since the acceleration is so linear and smooth.

The 0-30 with the Volt beats most cars. This is where the immediately available torque becomes available, even with the added weight.


[Edited on March 27, 2012 at 10:06 AM. Reason : .]

3/27/2012 9:59:39 AM

Isn't it a single ratio gear? Similar to the Tesla roadster in design?

As to CVTs most people don't like the motorboating effect.

And no I'm not talking about boobs

[Edited on March 27, 2012 at 10:14 AM. Reason : k]

3/27/2012 10:11:15 AM

I am not entirely sure what you are referring to about motorboating, probably because the Volt transmission doesnt do it.

The Volt's transmission is so complex, I am not the person to explain it. I 'thought' the tesla had a 2 speed transmission, as a result of the 1 speed not being able to handle all the torque, but maybe it is a 1 speed.

This video explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTxNnjsbocw&feature=related

3/27/2012 10:19:47 AM

^It was the other way around, well kind of. Tesla couldn't get the 2 speed transmission to work so they just used 1 speed as it's simpler. This lowered the top speed but otherwise doesn't have much impact.

Motorboating means the engine just hangs at one rpm point so you get a drone. Kind of like if you were in a motorboat cruising at speed.

Thanks, I'll check out the video later as I don't stream them at work.

3/27/2012 10:28:28 AM

Opel Ampera Dominates [the slowest ever] Monte Carlo Rally:

http://www.torquenews.com/1070/opel-ampera-dominates-monte-carlo-rally-video

3/27/2012 12:12:23 PM

TreeTwista asked. I have gone ~4900 electric miles in the car. I am using 32 kWh per 100 miles. This means I have used 4900/100*32=1568 kWh. My cost for electricity is 6 cents per kilowatt hour average. If you assume I do all my charging at home (in actuality I charge half at work for free), this amounts to $94.08 in 3 months to drive almost 5,000 miles. What I have actually paid is about $50 total, split across 3 power bills at this point.

[Edited on March 30, 2012 at 3:59 PM. Reason : .]

3/30/2012 3:59:07 PM

jesus christ CarZin is working hard to jazz up the Volt

Quote :

" ELECTRIC TORQUE MONSTER "

3/30/2012 4:27:38 PM