You can't really prove that. It's just likely speculation. The guy tried like 8 times to be a cop, he was previously a bouncer but got fired, and he had MMA training. He called the cops like 500 times for shit in his neighborhood and he patrolled while armed. It's pretty obvious he had a hero complex.

7/16/2013 11:48:39 AM

Quote :

"He got up and walked away the same night."

Which has nothing to do with anything. Self defense laws do not require that you be injured seriously or even injured at all, merely that another reasonable person in the same situation would also fear for their life or grievous bodily harm. And I have a sneaking suspicion that if you were pinned to the ground with someone bashing your head against the sidewalk you would fear for your life or grievous bodily harm.

Quote :

"Funny how trusting people are of a murderer's account of a murder, but sadly that's all the court had to go on."

Well, that and a hand full of 911 calls, the ear witnesses, the eye witness, the medical examiner, the crime scene investigator, the police reports, the later interviews with Zimmerman (like the one where the cops lied to him and said "We have video of the night, we know what happened" in an attempt to get him to slip up and Zimmerman responded "Thank god"). Other than that, yeah, all the court had to go on was the guy who got his head beat against a sidewalk.

Quote :

"Was there ever even any physical evidence presented that proved Zimmerman's head wounds were caused by Martin's fists? AFAIK he refused to go to the hospital to be treated/examined."

If you had watched the trial and evidence presented, the medical examiner testified to the likely causes of injury, including the sidewalk to the back of the head.

Quote :

"It's pretty clear what happened here is Zimmerman jumped the kid thinking he was some kind of perp, and then got the shit kicked out of him because he's an obese unathletic fuck who couldn't fight. "

Man, if it was clear to you, you should have called the state and presented whatever mysterious evidence you have because the prosecution couldn't come up with a "clear" story of what happened even with a weeks worth of witnesses and a years worth of investigation.

Quote :

"The guy tried like 8 times to be a cop, he was previously a bouncer but got fired, and he had MMA training. He called the cops like 500 times for shit in his neighborhood and he patrolled while armed. It's pretty obvious he had a hero complex."

He was also given the opportunity by the police to join their "Citizens on Patrol" program which would have given him a special car, a special uniform and more authority to patrol his neighborhood. He turned it down.

He did go to a gym to learn MMA and fighting. And the gym owner said he would never have placed Zimmerman in a ring because he sucked at it and they both knew it.

He did call the cops, 6 times per the evidence the prosecution entered. Because you know, he was part of the neighborhood watch program, and that's what you do, you call the cops. In fact, the police dept employee in charge of the neighborhood watch program had nothing but high praises to sing about how Zimmerman conducted himself (and this was a prosecution witness).

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 11:59 AM. Reason : fhj]

7/16/2013 11:53:38 AM

Let me tell you why you make no sense, because first you say that it doesn't even matter if he was injured or not:

Quote :

"Which has nothing to do with anything. Self defense laws do not require that you be injured seriously or even injured at all, merely that another reasonable person in the same situation would also fear for their life or grievous bodily harm."

Then you use as the crux of your argument the fact that he was beaten within an inch of his life:

Quote :

"And I have a sneaking suspicion that if you were pinned to the ground with someone bashing your head against the sidewalk you would fear for your life or grievous bodily harm."

7/16/2013 11:56:35 AM

How does it make no sense? The law does not require that you have actual injuries to successfully claim self defense. That doesn't mean that having injuries can't make for a more compelling self defense case. It's pretty basic logic.

7/16/2013 12:01:32 PM

Quote :

"because there's no way to prove it?"

Indeed.

So you'd have preferred the jury send a man to prison based on...no evidence? Just your gut feeling?

I wonder what your posts regarding the Brad Cooper verdict look like (if you followed it. I have no idea).

7/16/2013 12:04:25 PM

No one is saying that, at least I'm not. We're upset at the injustice, because I think a majority of people agree that he did do it (commit murder), it's just that there wasn't enough evidence to find him guilty in our court of law.

7/16/2013 12:18:20 PM

Quote :

"So you'd have preferred the jury send a man to prison based on...no evidence? Just your gut feeling?"

no. i just think that zimmerman followed the kid, provoked the kid, maybe even initiated the fight, got the shit kicked out of him by a kid, then shot and killed the kid. but unfortunately there's no way to prove that, so he got away with it.

7/16/2013 12:32:35 PM

Quote :

"no. i just think that zimmerman followed the kid, provoked the kid, maybe even initiated the fight, got the shit kicked out of him by a kid, then shot and killed the kid. but unfortunately there's no way to prove that, so he got away with it."

Why do you think that? Based on what evidence? Why wasn't that evidence presented? Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that narrative over any other other than "it feels right"? If you're willing to condemn someone based on gut feeling, then your opinion on legal matters should carry no weight whatsoever.

Here is the problem: you start with a conclusion. You then "adjust" and omit facts as necessary to match your conclusion.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 12:43 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2013 12:42:22 PM

d357r0y3r and 1337 b4k4 are arguing you people into oblivion. Logic, do you have it?

7/16/2013 12:47:26 PM

^^ I posted the evidence at the top of this thread.

7/16/2013 12:49:32 PM

Quote :

"It's pretty obvious he had a hero complex."

your opinion.

7/16/2013 12:54:41 PM

^^^^based on the fact that zimmerman was a wannabe cop, was prone to violence, was known to be following a kid around at at night, with a gun, in the kid's neighborhood. those are all facts. you can say him being a wanna-be cop is an opinion, but if you do, you're just being pc. we all know he's a wanna-be cop.

7/16/2013 12:56:27 PM

None of which is illegal.

7/16/2013 12:59:38 PM

i didn't say it was.

are you following the conversation? i basically agreed with the court's decision, and then gave my opinion that zimmerman probably initiated the fight, which would have been illegal, but can't be proven.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 1:04 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2013 1:01:17 PM

Quote :

" Why do you think that? Based on what evidence? Why wasn't that evidence presented? Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that narrative over any other other than "it feels right"? If you're willing to condemn someone based on gut feeling, then your opinion on legal matters should carry no weight whatsoever."

Didn't Bullet say, explicitly, "but unfortunately there's no way to prove that, so he got away with it."

He wasn't referring to whether he should have been convicted, and in fact admitted that he shouldn't have been given the available evidence.

I personally think people carrying lethal weapons should be held to a different standard for intentionally creating situations where they end up using them and he should be charged with a crime for getting out of his car, but that's just me. Given the superficiality of Zimmerman's injuries, I'm having a hard time buying that his fear of death or great bodily harm was reasonably justified and if he wasn't carrying he would have put on a much more significant defense instead of reaching for his gun and killing a teenager in the street.

7/16/2013 1:02:52 PM

Yes, of course. We'd all be perfectly reasonable while getting our heads smashed on the concrete.

Quote :

"Didn't Bullet say, explicitly, "but unfortunately there's no way to prove that, so he got away with it." He wasn't referring to whether he should have been convicted, and in fact admitted that he shouldn't have been given the available evidence. "

Sure. And he goes on to say what he thinks happened. Again, not based on any facts, just based on intuition. You'd be quick to shit on anyone that followed this kind of thought flow if it related to religion.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 1:08 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2013 1:06:17 PM

You say "Gets head smashed into concrete."

I say "Has superficial head wound. Doesn't visit a hospital. Goes to sleep that night (no concussion)."

7/16/2013 1:10:28 PM

Quote :

"Sure. And he goes on to say what he thinks happened. Again, not based on any facts, just based on intuition. You'd be quick to shit on anyone that followed this kind of thought flow if it related to religion."

Admits to speculating, get's called out for not being a lawyer.

7/16/2013 1:14:40 PM

Quote :

"Given the superficiality of Zimmerman's injuries, I'm having a hard time buying that his fear of death or great bodily harm was reasonably justified and if he wasn't carrying he would have put on a much more significant defense instead of reaching for his gun and killing a teenager in the street."

Because head injuries are never serious?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/18/brain.injury/

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56269437-78/percent-injuries-utah-brain.html.csp

http://healthyliving.blog.ocregister.com/2011/07/27/can-a-single-punch-kill-you/35949/

Of course, we have the benefit of examining the nature of the injuries after the fact. So here's a suggestion, have someone break your nose, then pin you to the ground and start beating your head into a sidewalk. Let us know how much or little you fear death or great bodily harm.

7/16/2013 1:14:51 PM

Quote :

"I personally think people carrying lethal weapons should be held to a different standard for intentionally creating situations where they end up using them"

In a civilized world, this is where the conversation would begin. Obviously not gonna get that here, though.

7/16/2013 1:15:49 PM

It doesn't matter how bad the wound was. If someone is punching your face and slamming your head on the concrete, you're not going to crunch the numbers in your head on odds of survival and act based on that. You're going to react as best you can to get out of the situation.

Even in MMA, the match ends at ground and pound if the person on top is making full contact punches.

On a separate note, none of this would have happened if the police actually did their job. Of course, the police are not actually there to serve and protect, their primary job is to generate revenue for the state.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 1:19 PM. Reason : ]

7/16/2013 1:17:15 PM

I'm saying I don't think Zimmerman would have even been in that situation (mounted, being physically lifted off the pavement one or more times) if he wasn't carrying and was actually putting up some semblance of a defense. I'm having a hard time buying that anyone (even a "wimp" like Zimmerman) could get killed by an unarmed teenager in a short period of time barring a freak accident or the teen picks up a weapon.

I've never been in a fight where I go limp and let someone 50 pounds lighter than me do what they please.

7/16/2013 1:20:30 PM

That's why the defense brought in people experienced with hand-to-hand combat. They said that if you get hit hard enough in the right spot once, you can become dazed and put into a weaker position.

7/16/2013 1:23:44 PM

And given the superficiality of his injuries do you think he was "dazed and weakened" to the point where a 50 pound lighter person could do what they please with no semblance of a defense? How'd he get to his gun and fire it if he was so very debilitated by Trayvon's mighty blows?

I believe he was just focused on getting to his gun which resulted in him letting his guard down.

7/16/2013 1:26:51 PM

Quote :

"Sure. And he goes on to say what he thinks happened. Again, not based on any facts, just based on intuition. You'd be quick to shit on anyone that followed this kind of thought flow if it related to religion."

He was using Occam's razor, and admitted that it should have no legal weight.

What more do you want from him? He agreed with court's decision.

7/16/2013 1:30:07 PM

What's the basis for this being an injustice? Is the claim that the states prosecution was not competent?

7/16/2013 1:39:13 PM

I love all the people saying "there was no evidence of X", which is true, but there was also no evidence supporting Zimmerman's version of the events. Specifically the part where Martin jumped him while he was heading back to his car. Literally nothing except Zimmerman's word. The word of a guy on trial for murder.

Quote :

"I personally think people carrying lethal weapons should be held to a different standard for intentionally creating situations where they end up using them"

Exactly. The burden of proof should be on Zimmerman to prove that, through no fault of his own, he found himself in a life threatening situation that necessitated deadly force. Which was never proven or supported by any evidence.

7/16/2013 1:44:16 PM

So guilty until proven innocent?

7/16/2013 1:50:58 PM

No .... Zimmerman confessed to everything required to prove him guilty. He was carrying a gun. He followed Martin in his car. He got out of his car and started stalking him. That's called creating a dangerous situation, one that was totally unnecessary. The moment he got out of his car with a loaded weapon, ignoring the directions of a police dispatcher, he accepted responsibility for any loss of life that occurred thereafter. That should have been the end of it.

7/16/2013 1:58:06 PM

You're obviously in the wrong profession then.

March forth and save the world. You know best.

7/16/2013 2:00:33 PM

Quote :

"lol, wut? What evidence is this? Or by 'all the evidence', do you mean 'Zimmermans account of that night'?"

i'm talking about the autopsy report which showed that Martin had no injuries except a cut on his knuckle and gunshot wound. Zimmerman had a broken nose and lacerations on the back of his head which was documented. This is evidence that Martin was punching Zimmerman and since Zimmerman had no injuries on his knuckles, he never hit Martin. One can deduce then that Martin not only threw the first punch but the only punch. Add the witness testimony of Martin on top of Zimmerman punching him in an MMA style ground and pound, it's not hard to imagine the sequence of events.

The real issue is how do you define confrontation initiation? Is following someone one initiating a confrontation? Is questioning someone one about what they are up to initiating a confrontation? In my opinion no. Is punching someone and breaking their nose initiating a confrontation, I believe yes.

7/16/2013 2:00:48 PM

Quote :

" ignoring the directions of a police dispatcher"

People would take you more seriously if you would stop repeating a falsehood that was dismissed at the trial by the very dispatcher you're talking about. Not only did the dispatcher give no directions, he isn't allowed to and Zimmerman was already out of the car by the time the events you have in mind occurred.

7/16/2013 2:04:03 PM

Quote :

"The moment he got out of his car with a loaded weapon, ignoring the directions of a police dispatcher"

Stop saying this.

The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."

7/16/2013 2:04:48 PM

Quote :

"What's the basis for this being an injustice? Is the claim that the states prosecution was not competent?"

No, it's that the gun laws allow for this to happen to begin with. That's the injustice. The law is written so that the context of the situation is completely stripped out of equation and that the incident is viewed in a narrow vacuum....and that, of course, is entirely the point of a law that is backed by special interests. That's the injustice.

If you isolate the incident to the point of the fight and remove all the context prior to it, then you'll never convict him of murder, no matter how shoddy his character is. The question should be if a person who has a deadly weapon should be reasonably expected to remove himself/herself from the situation before applying deadly force. The fact that that discussion will never be had is the real injustice.

7/16/2013 2:07:47 PM

I really don't give a fuck what a bunch of people defending the actions of a gun toting racist think about my opinion. I will continue saying he ignored the instructions of a police dispatcher because to any reasonable human being with a shred of common sense, that's exactly what he did.

7/16/2013 2:08:38 PM

Quote :

"d357r0y3r and 1337 b4k4 are arguing you people into oblivion. Logic, do you have it?"

this needed to be repeated

7/16/2013 2:08:56 PM

Quote :

"No, it's that the gun laws allow for this to happen to begin with."

It has nothing to do with gun laws. The laws as regard self defense apply regardless of whether it's a simple fist fight or something that ends in one or more deaths. The question is always were you or were you not the aggressor and would a reasonable person in your situation have behaved the same way. Had Zimmerman instead managed to flip Martin over and cracked his skull against the pavement and killed him, the question would be the same.

Quote :

"I will continue saying he ignored the instructions of a police dispatcher because to any reasonable human being with a shred of common sense, that's exactly what he did."

Except he didn't. If you had actually watched the trial or listened to the tape, you would have heard that Zimmerman was already out of the car and running before the dispatcher said anything about following or not following, and you would also have heard that after the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman stopped running after him.

7/16/2013 2:17:40 PM

Stopped running, but didn't stop following him. If he had turned around and gone straight back to his car, he would have made it there before the call with the dispatcher ended

7/16/2013 2:33:24 PM

Quote :

"Had Zimmerman instead managed to flip Martin over and cracked his skull against the pavement and killed him, the question would be the same."

Quote :

"If you isolate the incident to the point of the fight and remove all the context prior to it, then you'll never convict him of murder, no matter how shoddy his character is."

It's like you literally didn't read a word I said.

7/16/2013 2:34:09 PM

Sorry sparky.... Autopsy reports don't tell you who initiated contact or started a fight. Try again?

7/16/2013 2:34:23 PM

Quote :

"So here's a suggestion, have someone break your nose, then pin you to the ground and start beating your head into a sidewalk. "

Is that what actually happened, or just what the guy who is trying not to get charged with murder and the only witness to the crime said what happened?

7/16/2013 2:35:24 PM

Quote :

"And given the superficiality of his injuries do you think he was "dazed and weakened" to the point where a 50 pound lighter person could do what they please with no semblance of a defense? How'd he get to his gun and fire it if he was so very debilitated by Trayvon's mighty blows?"

you are delusional. a broken nose and multiple blows to the head are pretty serious.

and this argument about "oh, zimmerman was so much heavier than trayvon, therefore must be a better fighter!"... I know people in the mid 100's who would absolutely destroy many people in their mid 200's. in fact, i'd say someone between 150-200 is MUCH more likely to be in good shape and be more physically fit/menacing than some butterbean that weighs 300 or so.

7/16/2013 2:35:41 PM

He totally fight clubbed himself.

7/16/2013 2:35:57 PM

^^Sounds like he was an idiot for pursuing and picking a fight with him then. Good thing he was able to kill Martin so he could win the fight.

7/16/2013 2:37:34 PM

"Is that what actually happened?"

7/16/2013 2:37:57 PM

Quote :

"you are delusional. a broken nose and multiple blows to the head are pretty serious. and this argument about "oh, zimmerman was so much heavier than trayvon, therefore must be a better fighter!"... I know people in the mid 100's who would absolutely destroy many people in their mid 200's. in fact, i'd say someone between 150-200 is MUCH more likely to be in good shape and be more physically fit/menacing than some butterbean that weighs 300 or so. "

A superficially broken nose and superficial blows to the head. I think it's insanity to suggest that getting punched is justification for killing someone. I never said weighing more makes him a better fighter, I'm saying it appears as though Zimmerman made absolutely no defense, resulting in the injuries that he had. You can argue the points I make or you can keep burning down strawmen, it's your call.

7/16/2013 2:39:53 PM

Quote :

"Sorry sparky.... Autopsy reports don't tell you who initiated contact or started a fight. Try again?"

no but it tells you who was throwing punches, who wasn't and who was getting hit. also, at what point do you define the fight to have started?

7/16/2013 2:41:54 PM

How much do you have to get punched before you can respond with enough force to make them stop?

How do you judge which one of those punches is going to cause serious injury before it lands?

7/16/2013 2:47:50 PM

From these discussions it’s obvious that people have, when simplified, two very different scenarios of the situation they have created in their heads. One where the altercation was initiated when Martin punched Zimmerman and one where Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by following and questioning Martin. I don’t think people are going to change their minds at this point.

^you talking to me?

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 2:50 PM. Reason : willyo]

7/16/2013 2:49:44 PM

Quote :

"It's like you literally didn't read a word I said."

So your complaint is that our justice system doesn't convict people for being crappy people, just for the crimes that they commit (or that can be proved they committed)?

Quote :

"Is that what actually happened, or just what the guy who is trying not to get charged with murder and the only witness to the crime said what happened?"

Which part are you questioning whether it happened or not? The broken nose that was confirmed by the medical examiner? The pinned to the ground that was confirmed by the eye witness? Or the beating the head against the sidewalk which was also confirmed by the medical examiner?

7/16/2013 2:49:54 PM