that's determined by case law. it can involve the use of a weapon, depending on the weapon and the use of that weapon. (for example, hitting someone in the stomach with a bat is probably not deadly force, but aiming for the head is deadly force) the use of a weapon like a gun at any time is deadly force, because of the chance you will miss, even if you are aiming at someone's foot.

i didn't watch a lot of the trial, because i don't like these media circuses, but i heard at one point there was a big debate over the banging of zimmerman's head against the concrete, if that happened, and whether that would be considered a deadly weapon. if it was, then i think the argument is that was the use of deadly force, and so using a gun was reasonable.

as for simple hands, it depends on the extent of the contact, and the duration and likelihood of causing great bodily harm or death. in general a simple fistfight is rarely considered deadly force, but it could be based on the disparity in size or skill of the opponents, or the intensity of physicality. all of this stuff is purely case law, so i have no idea what it is in Florida. honestly, i haven't studied all the case law in NC either, so i couldn't tell you the dividing line. usually it's all jury decided.

but the actual use of deadly force is a separate issue from the perception of the NEED to use deadly force. one is an objective standard, and the other is either objective or subjective ("reasonable belief of impending great bodily harm or death," for example), depending on the jurisdiction.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 9:38 PM. Reason : asd]

7/16/2013 9:36:18 PM

excuse me sir, do you intend to swing that bat at my head or my stomach?

7/16/2013 9:38:29 PM

i'm just telling you how the law distinguishes. what you are talking about isn't the use of ACTUAL deadly force, but the perception of the individual that they are in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. in the latter case, another person simply having a bat would probably be sufficient, if there was apparent intent to use the bat in a way to cause death or great bodily harm.

but you might have to show intent in that case as well.

7/16/2013 9:41:25 PM

and i'm just pointing out how absurd it is

7/16/2013 9:45:40 PM

You start swinging a bat (or any weapon other than your firsts), I'm going to assume your intention is to do serve bodily harm. One swing with a bat to your stomach can rupture internal organs, causing you to die painfully from hemoraging or organ failures. So no, just cause you aren't swinging at my head doesn't make it any less lethal.

the law is absurd.

[Edited on July 16, 2013 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/16/2013 10:02:39 PM

Quote :

"The question should be if a person who has a deadly weapon should be reasonably expected to remove himself/herself from the situation before applying deadly force. The fact that that discussion will never be had is the real injustice. "

This is why the prosecution should have gone for manslaughter in the beginning and tried to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, GZ's poor decision to follow led to the avoidable death of Trayvon. Instead they caved to popular opinion that he should've been tried for murder.

7/16/2013 10:14:51 PM

Again, my misdirected rage argument.

Thanks for phrasing it better-

The prosecution deserves what Zimmerman is currently receiving.

7/16/2013 11:03:27 PM

Quote :

"Single blows to the head have killed many people."

This needs to be repeated. A physical altercation with a stranger is always a life-or-death situation. Particularly if you're there by yourself.

TWW has no shortage of wannabe macho men who think their fighting experience with frenemies in their social group is appropriate context to apply here. Real life is extremely unforgiving.

7/17/2013 8:30:48 AM

Quote :

"This needs to be repeated. A physical altercation with a stranger is always a life-or-death situation. Particularly if you're there by yourself."

Don't be ridiculous. This is like saying every time you walk down the street is a life or death situation.

There is inherent risk in every action, it's the likelihood that is important. Out of every physical altercation not involving a weapon, how many resulted in death before they were broken up or ended, especially when dealing with untrained people? Almost every single time, no death, no permanent injury.

7/17/2013 8:41:49 AM

Do you mean like in front of a bar with 100s of people around, or when someone is walking to their car in a neighborhood otherwise devoid of people?

7/17/2013 8:44:34 AM

Since neither of those accurately describe the situation at hand, I don't really care which or both.

You and whomever you were quoting made a ridiculous statement about every fistfight. We can talk in generalities or we can talk about the specifics of this fight. I still contend that George Zimmerman had an essentially zero percent chance of dying or being permanently injured, if he did anything to defend or retreat but try to get his gun and shoot Trayvon.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 9:03 AM. Reason : clarification]

7/17/2013 9:02:39 AM

If you get in a fight alone with a stranger, you have a good chance of dying.

In his case, the police were already called, which is a significant departure from that generality.

7/17/2013 9:14:19 AM

A)I don't believe that generality is accurate. Unless weapons are involved I believe most untrained people will tire out or just give up before killing someone, especially given the moral and legal consequences of murder. Now, personally I think the best philosophy is to consider every person as having a knife or a gun and not get into any fight, but I'm talking about a fistfight, not randomly getting jumped by someone with a knife or buddies 100 miles from civilization.

B)If it has no bearing on this case why even mention it?

7/17/2013 9:32:46 AM

Quote :

"I believe most untrained people will tire out or just give up before killing someone"

Would you be willing or able to make that bet while having your head slammed into concrete?

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 9:38 AM. Reason : .]

7/17/2013 9:38:14 AM

If you get in a fight alone with a stranger, you have a good chance of dying sustaining great bodily harm

7/17/2013 9:39:44 AM

which is why you shouldn't stalk strangers at night and instigate a fight with them

7/17/2013 9:50:39 AM

And if you do, you certainly deserve to have your head slammed against some pavement

7/17/2013 9:54:41 AM

and if you're stalked at night in your neighborhood by some random stranger, who confronts you and instigates a fight with you, and you defend yourself by hitting them, you deserve to be shot and killed.

7/17/2013 10:01:16 AM

Quote :

"A)I don't believe that generality is accurate. Unless weapons are involved I believe most untrained people will tire out or just give up before killing someone, especially given the moral and legal consequences of murder. Now, personally I think the best philosophy is to consider every person as having a knife or a gun and not get into any fight, but I'm talking about a fistfight, not randomly getting jumped by someone with a knife or buddies 100 miles from civilization. B)If it has no bearing on this case why even mention it?"

If you feel more safe on the streets than I do, I prefer that you don't write laws that expect me to gamble with my life.

b) That was Zimmerman's situation, but there were 2 major amendments. One is that the cops had been called. Two, he was carrying a loaded gun. While #1 made the situation safer for him, #2 sort of undid that. He didn't know Trayvon. Within in the minutes it takes the cops to arrive he could have easily been shot by his own gun. Was he in a place to make a character judgement about Trayvon? It's possible that either GZ or TM started the fight, but either way TM was throwing punches.

I don't expect that a random guy walking by in a dark neighborhood would wrestle my gun away and shoot me. But if said guy is presently punching me then yeah... pretty good chance that would happen.

There is a reasonable case that the combination of carrying a gun and chasing someone should make you liable for manslaughter charges. But current law doesn't completely preclude that. If the prosecution had been more competent, that probably would have happened.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 10:12 AM. Reason : ]

7/17/2013 10:12:11 AM

to me straddling someone and beating the ever living shit out of them isn't self defense to me

7/17/2013 10:13:03 AM

i was not aware that the "ever living shit" was beat out of zimmerman. was that presented at the trial? is that speculation? i speculate that zimmerman confronted martin and instigated the fight, and martin defended himself. just like most dudes would. if you were stalked at night and confronted and assaulted, if you had the opportunity to straddle your attacker and get in a few good punches, wouldn't you? or would you run away?

7/17/2013 10:23:57 AM

i'd haul ass. the handgun in my pocket means i'm likely to end up in an expensive trial if i hang around and try to get macho.

7/17/2013 10:42:50 AM

so if a stranger followed you around your neighborhood at night, and confronted you, got in your face, started putting his hands on you (speculation), you'd just turn around and run away? what if you tried and he grabbed your arm? would you take a swing, or would you continue to try to simply run away?

7/17/2013 10:45:41 AM

i would make every effort to get away. if he went hard hands, i'd draw my weapon.

7/17/2013 10:47:08 AM

wonder what would have happened if that exact scenario panned out, and martin happened to have a (legal) gun and he shot and killed zimmerman after zimmerman grabbed him? do you think martin would have not been convicted of a crime? wonder if the conservatives would have supported martin?

7/17/2013 10:49:16 AM

why are you speculating that zimmerman initiated physical contact? there is zero proof of that.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

7/17/2013 10:49:51 AM

It doesn't really matter, since he pursued and followed a kid in the middle of the night. If Martin felt threatened (which we'll never know) then wasn't he justified in defending himself?

7/17/2013 10:52:27 AM

Quote :

"Would you be willing or able to make that bet while having your head slammed into concrete?"

And around we go!

If I wasn't just trying to grab my gun a 50 pound lighter teenager than me almost certainly wouldn't be slamming my head on concrete. And I'm not saying I'm ITG and I'd beat him up, but I would be running way/defending myself.

You people are just acting like Zimmerman teleported completely helplessly into the situation with a powerful black man pounding him into dust and his only option was to use a gun to neutralize him.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

7/17/2013 10:54:03 AM

Quote :

"Bullet: so if a stranger followed you around your neighborhood at night, and confronted you, got in your face, started putting his hands on you (speculation), you'd just turn around and run away? what if you tried and he grabbed your arm? would you take a swing, or would you continue to try to simply run away? NeuseRvrRat: i would make every effort to get away. if he went hard hands, i'd draw my weapon. Bullet: wonder what would have happened if that exact scenario panned out, and martin happened to have a (legal) gun and he shot and killed zimmerman after zimmerman grabbed him? do you think martin would have not been convicted of a crime? wonder if the conservatives would have supported martin?"

depends on evidence and eyewitness accounts

if that exact scenario played out, then, no, the victim wouldn't be guilty

i have no idea what kind of spin the media would put on it, which would decide what folks thought about it. i doubt it would've made it beyond local news.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 10:57 AM. Reason : adf]

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 10:59 AM. Reason : victim = shooter in this scenario]

7/17/2013 10:55:23 AM

Quote :

"why are you speculating that zimmerman initiated physical contact? there is zero proof of that."

i've admitted that's pure speculation. i base that speculation on the fact that zimmerman was following martin around his neighborhood, that zimmerman is emotional while he's following martin (he's pissed, as evident by his 911 call), that zimmerman confronted martin after stalking him, the fact that zimmerman was a wanna-be cop, that zimmerman had been in trouble in the past for assaulting people... that's what i base the speculation on.

and again, i know there was no proof that zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, and that's why he wasn't convicted. but he could have avoided ALL of it if he never got out of his car.

7/17/2013 11:00:00 AM

Quote :

"i've admitted that's pure speculation. i base that speculation on the fact that zimmerman was following martin around his neighborhood, that zimmerman is emotional while he's following martin (he's pissed, as evident by his 911 call), that zimmerman confronted martin after stalking him, the fact that zimmerman was a wanna-be cop, that zimmerman had been in trouble in the past for assaulting people... that's what i base the speculation on. and again, i know there was no proof that zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, and that's why he wasn't convicted. but he could have avoided ALL of it if he never got out of his car."

But on the other hand, Martin is a Black male, and therefore he's a violent thug who decided to try and murder Zimmerman.

7/17/2013 11:03:21 AM

Quote :

"It doesn't really matter, since he pursued and followed a kid in the middle of the night. If Martin felt threatened (which we'll never know) then wasn't he justified in defending himself?"

If Zimmerman did not initiate physical altercation, then I don't think Trayvon was justified in defending himself through means of violence. If Zimmerman did initiate contact, or was giving vocal threats (ex. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you"), then it would be justified. We don't have proof of either. I can only go off of what we know, and unfortunately we only have one side of the story.

Quote :

"If I wasn't just trying to grab my gun a 50 pound lighter teenager than me almost certainly wouldn't be slamming my head on concrete. ."

Do we know that he grabbing his gun before Trayvon attacked him? If so, attacking him would be justified because it may be riskier to run from a gun.

Quote :

"And I'm not saying I'm ITG and I'd beat him up, but I would be running way/defending myself"

Running away while having your head beat into the ground? You yourself admitted it's a potential life or death situation. If it was just a fist fight I'd agree with you, but bringing concrete-skull contact into the mix elevates the level of danger.

Quote :

"You people are just acting like Zimmerman teleported completely helplessly into the situation with a powerful black man pounding him into dust and his only option was to use a gun to neutralize him."

Of course not, which is why manslaughter charges could be arguable. This situation isn't black and white (lol)

Quote :

"and again, i know there was no proof that zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, and that's why he wasn't convicted. but he could have avoided ALL of it if he never got out of his car."

manslaughter

Quote :

"But on the other hand, Martin is a Black male, and therefore he's a violent thug who decided to try and murder Zimmerman."

Given my posting history, you should realize how stupid that hyperbole is.


[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason : .]

7/17/2013 11:07:18 AM

Quote :

"and if you're stalked at night in your neighborhood by some random stranger, who confronts you and instigates a fight with you, and you defend yourself by hitting them"

i dont understand why this never came up in media discussions I have seen. No one talked about it from the perspective of a guy like trayvon. He has a right to stand his ground as well being approached by a stranger on a street he had every right to be on, but wasnt entirely familiar with. Why does he have to go to his home with some guy following him?

If someone is following you in your car givin you the flip off sign to you just drive to your house and run putting your family in danger?

everyone applies the law to Z but no one conjectures the law in relation to Trayvon's perspective. Instead they talk about how he got suspended and smoked some weed before.

unfortunately after the phone call and before the screaming we dont know what happened. Thats why I feel the acquittal was mostly justifiable. But my strongest suspicion is that Trayvon at some point felt threatened enough to that point of fight or flight. He had his hands. Who knows the words that were said ya know?

if a woman is allowed to call any action some form of harassment and get people fired, why is there all of a sudden such a high standard for what should be considered a threat great enough to use some manner of force great or small by the general public?

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM. Reason : f]

7/17/2013 11:12:12 AM

^
He had the right to say "I don't have to leave" and continue his business

He didn't have the right to initiate violence (assuming Zimmerman didn't explicitly provoke it). Call the police, unless you are threatened with bodily harm.

7/17/2013 11:17:17 AM

Quote :

"He didn't have the right to initiate violence (assuming Zimmerman didn't explicitly provoke it"

To me, being stalked, chased and confronted by some stranger in the rain, at night, in my neighborhood kinda is provocation.

7/17/2013 11:18:50 AM

^^you dont know the level of threat he perceived.

bullshit, "I dont have to leave"...."My body, my choice!!"

7/17/2013 11:23:35 AM

Quote :

"^^you dont know the level of threat he perceived."

EXACTLY

7/17/2013 11:24:13 AM

great. lets keep going.

7/17/2013 11:24:41 AM

Quote :

"This is why the prosecution should have gone for manslaughter in the beginning and tried to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, GZ's poor decision to follow led to the avoidable death of Trayvon. Instead they caved to popular opinion that he should've been tried for murder."

Yeah, I think if they went for manslaughter from the get go, they could have gotten him. Although, again, with this particular jury who knows. It really all comes down to a very subjective opinion of whether or not you think Zimmerman had "reasonable fear of death or bodily harm". As can be demonstrated in this thread, there is no consensus opinion on that.

Now, that's besides the fact Zimmerman manufactured the entire situation by stalking an innocent kid while carrying a firearm. If there was any semblance of reason in the law, that should have been enough to convict him of a felony. Criminally negligent homicide seems like it should apply at the very least.

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 12:03 PM. Reason : :]

7/17/2013 11:57:03 AM

With that very sensible post I think we can bring this and all the other Trayvon threads to a close.

7/17/2013 1:02:21 PM

no stalking occurred. Lets try this again.

7/17/2013 1:23:09 PM

semantics. it was dark. it was raining. he followed him around in a car. then got out of the car and followed him on foot. i'd call that stalking. whatever you call it, i'm sure you wouldn't appreciate if you were walking home and someone started following you in a car, then got out of the car and started following you by foot.

7/17/2013 1:33:51 PM

I would dislike that so much that I'd dial 911 on my cell phone

7/17/2013 1:55:26 PM

He's not required to call the police. He should be able to stand his ground against some creep who is following him around his own neighborhood. Some people don't like getting the police involved (don't you hate the police?) And do you think anything would have turned out differently if he did call the police and told him that a guy was following him?

7/17/2013 2:02:37 PM

Quote :

"He should be able to stand his ground against some creep who is following him around his own neighborhood."

You're still assuming that Zimmerman's behavior, whatever that was, warranted an act of violence. How do you know this? In your mind, does following someone around warrant a fist-fight? Because that's all we know about the situation.

Quote :

"And do you think anything would have turned out differently if he did call the police and told him that a guy was following him?"

Probably.

Quote :

"Some people don't like getting the police involved (don't you hate the police?)"

Unfortunately, we live in a society of laws, and if you choose to act outside the law, you are responsible for that decision (this applies to both sides).

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 2:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2013 2:12:03 PM

Quote :

"You're still assuming that Zimmerman's behavior, whatever that was, warranted an act of violence. How do you know this?"

i don't. i'm speculating. and i've stated what i base that speculation on.

Quote :

"Probably."

How so? How much time elapsed between when Martin realized he was being followed and when he was shot?

7/17/2013 2:20:46 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, I think if they went for manslaughter from the get go, they could have gotten him. Although, again, with this particular jury who knows. It really all comes down to a very subjective opinion of whether or not you think Zimmerman had "reasonable fear of death or bodily harm". As can be demonstrated in this thread, there is no consensus opinion on that. "

if they would have went for manslaughter out of the gate niggas would riot because they were offended and would take it as demeaning Trayvon

damned if they did, damned if they didnt

7/17/2013 2:21:26 PM

Quote :

"i don't. i'm speculating. and i've stated what i base that speculation on."

I don't know why you're still speculating. There's no way of knowing. Courts deal in evidence, not speculation.

Quote :

"How so? How much time elapsed between when Martin realized he was being followed and when he was shot?"

Because he'd be on the phone calling the police instead of initiating a fist fight.

7/17/2013 2:28:41 PM

Quote :

"damned if they did, damned if they didnt"

welcome to the consequences of over-inflated media trials. there would have been uproar over either verdict no matter what. quality of life would be much better if they kept these things quiet but the media moguls have to capitalize off them to make their millions.

7/17/2013 2:31:39 PM

Quote :

"I don't know why you're still speculating. There's no way of knowing. Courts deal in evidence, not speculation."

I've made it very clear that I'm not talking about the court, i've said i basically agree with the court's decision, there was no proof. i'm talking about my opinion.

Quote :

"Because he'd be on the phone calling the police instead of initiating a fist fight."

You don't know why I'm speculating, then you speculate in your next comment? What makes you think Martin initiated the fist fight? Zimmerman was following and chasing him. Zimmerman probably confronted him. What would make you speculate that Martin initiated the fist fight?

[Edited on July 17, 2013 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2013 2:43:19 PM