No, I could care less about someone's personal infidelities. At least, someone who doesn't hold the nation's highest security clearance, or really any clearance for that matter. I'm not sure why this is so hard to appreciate. Bill Clinton the attorney lying about something? No big deal (aside from the fact that it also begs the question about his honesty in court). Bill Clinton lying as POTUS? Big fucking deal. But I'll let it go since you can't appreciate the significance.

BTW, I should add - that wasn't the only thing that was going on at the time and it wasn't the only "dirt" they had on him. You should look up all of the stuff that was ongoing (Whitewater, etc.).

[Edited on June 13, 2017 at 7:01 PM. Reason : a]

6/13/2017 6:54:29 PM

What about Whitewater? What other stuff? They were never able to find squat on the Clintons which is why they had to impeach him over what was essentially a legal technicality.

Look, I think Trump and co. are guilty as fuck, not of obstruction of justice or other petty shit, but of actual collusion with Russia in the election meddling. I think everything from the precise timing of the hacked documents release, Trump's public behavior and statements related to Russia, the relationship with the Mercers and their Russian connections, and yes, the constant lying about all things Russia related from his circle all point to it. But I'll also entertain the possibility that it was all just coincidental, and if that ends up being the case, I'll be disappointed that we were ever led to believe otherwise (by mostly Democrats) and so much sweat was spent on this instead of actually governing.

6/13/2017 7:10:41 PM

the Russians influenced our election and senior members of our government are complicit, who the fuck cares about whatever trivial rich people crimes the shitty Clinton's did

6/13/2017 7:22:31 PM

Quote :

" But I'll also entertain the possibility that it was all just coincidental, and if that ends up being the case, I'll be disappointed that we were ever led to believe otherwise (by mostly Democrats) and so much sweat was spent on this instead of actually governing."

"If it turns out I was brainwashed by the democrats, and the democrats tell me, then I will be disappointed I was brainwashed, if they tell me to be disappointed, that is."

6/13/2017 8:46:43 PM

Quote :

"the Russians influenced our election and senior members of our government are complicit, who the fuck cares about whatever trivial rich people crimes the shitty Clinton's did"

I'm simply pointing out that if you don't hold everyone to the same standard then you can't complain about the whataboutism that is rampant right now. It spun off of my comment that I believe some of the push back regarding this Russian investigation is born out of the fact that there was not equal outrage over Hillary's email situation.

One is absolutely worse than the other but you do not maintain credibility unless you pursue both equally and aggressively.

6/13/2017 9:37:50 PM

These things surrounding Trump are about as much coincidence as Bill Clinton happening upon Loretta Lynch and discussing their grandchildren.

6/13/2017 9:54:15 PM

Quote :

" I believe some of the push back regarding this Russian investigation is born out of the fact that there was not equal outrage over Hillary's email situation."

Is Jeff Sessions' amnesia contagious? Did you catch some of that?

We've not come anywhere close to the number of congressional hearings, investigative staffer hires, total money spent, etc that was loosed upon the Benghazi/email fiasco investigations. Maybe in another 6 months, at the current pace, congressional investigations will sum to what looked into Clinton.

Media outrage? They were tripping over themselves to scoop up Chaffetz and the NY FBI office leaks. At some points in the CAMPAIGN it was wall to wall email coverage.

The amount of FBI scrutiny/resources? We have no way to measure this currently although we did get reports that at times 100s of FBI investigators were reviewing emails. It's beside the point, you have to let your FBI director determine how to allocate his resources for any given investigation, especially when it's media sensitive. You wouldn't harness the entire bureau to take down a guy selling weed on the corner, however, you might for a counter-intelligence investigation with national security implications.

You keep saying Hillary got off easy and I don't see it. Go back and review the tape.

6/14/2017 6:27:55 AM

Lol, The NY Times had FOUR email stories above the fold a week before the election.

She got off easy? She lost to an Orange mess because of it (and many of her and the DNC calamities).

6/14/2017 6:51:43 AM

Or, you know, the Clinton email scandal actually has EVIDENCE

as opposed to the Russia narrative.

But when has a pesky thing like "evidence" dictated the leftist narrative?

6/14/2017 10:17:06 AM

Quote :

"We've not come anywhere close to the number of congressional hearings, investigative staffer hires, total money spent, etc that was loosed upon the Benghazi/email fiasco investigations."

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm talking about voter push back, not comparing money spent on completely different investigations that haven't even elapsed for the same amount of time.

Quote :

"Media outrage?"

Voter outrage/push back, such as that which we experience on this forum every day.

Quote :

"The amount of FBI scrutiny/resources?"

No. I agree with you here; let them staff as they see fit.

Quote :

"You keep saying Hillary got off easy and I don't see it. Go back and review the tape."

She was not fired, imprisoned, admonished or fined for what she did regarding emails. Regarding Benghazi, no one was punished aside from I think one person who was reassigned to a retirement posting in Canada. It never even reached to her level. To be clear, I'm not saying it necessarily should have but the optics are what I'm talking about here. You had physical, tangible evidence at the time for both the email thing and the Benghazi thing where as right now with the Russian thing, no actual evidence has been publicly produced (I wholeheartedly believe it's there otherwise the FBI would not be chasing this down but optics).

Hence my statement that some of the push back you see from voters/the GOP public right now is simply because of what JCE has mentioned many times - publicly known evidence versus non-publicly known evidence.

I'm trying to get people to understand that until you understand and appreciate the other side's view, you'll never have a chance at changing it.

6/14/2017 2:19:44 PM

jesus fucking christ, stop being a moron

6/14/2017 2:23:42 PM

Quote :

"Paul Ryan: ‘An Attack on One of Us is An Attack On All of Us’"

Would be nice if he felt that way about some of the other attacks on our nation, such as cyber attacks...

Quote :

"jesus fucking christ, stop being a moron"

K. We'll do it your way and spend the next 30 years just yelling at each other, accomplishing nothing, while temperatures rise to the point that violence erupts and brings all of us down.

For the record, my method has actually convinced five people that I know to convert from blind Trump support to actually supporting a full, independent investigation. But results don't matter, just vitriol.

[Edited on June 14, 2017 at 2:49 PM. Reason : a]

6/14/2017 2:46:52 PM

Lol, just as I said a bunch of times, the president was NOT under investigations for collusion but he is now under investigation for obstruction.

It's like he wants to be there...

6/14/2017 7:01:25 PM

I will be pleased if Hillary can be barred from the Presidency due to her classified material handling, and if Trump can be driven out of office for, well, fuck it, pick one. That will be the closest thing to a win that could have come out of 2016.

[Edited on June 14, 2017 at 7:23 PM. Reason : maybe even put his orange ass in the butt hut for at least a little bit. that would be awesome.]

6/14/2017 7:22:40 PM

^

6/14/2017 7:27:12 PM

What's the downside to Trump firing Mueller (through Rosenstein and then on down the chain if he refuses)? If he does who would investigate? Congress? Lol... We know gutless Paul Ryan won't do anything.

I suppose he could be impeached by the House in 2018 if it flips but the Senate is safe (probably safe from a majority let alone a 2/3 vote).

It seems fairly obvious given his surrogates and his own tweets it is something that COULD potentially happen. Almost seems like a matter of time.

6/15/2017 9:44:21 AM

So have the goalposts officially been moved from "Trump colluding with Russia" to "Trump obstructed justice"?

6/15/2017 9:51:23 AM

Quote :

"What's the downside to Trump firing Mueller (through Rosenstein and then on down the chain if he refuses)? If he does who would investigate? Congress? Lol... We know gutless Paul Ryan won't do anything. "

didn't work for nixon

it would be hard to control the narrative against the pressing public opinion if he fires mueller, it would make him look very guilty

6/15/2017 10:07:39 AM

Quote :

"What's the downside to Trump firing Mueller (through Rosenstein and then on down the chain if he refuses)? If he does who would investigate? Congress? Lol... We know gutless Paul Ryan won't do anything."

Congress would either move aggressively towards impeachment (Nixon) or appoint an independent commission.

Also, not a small detail but was sort of under the radar, the senate voted to strip Trump's power to remove Russian sanctions. That's an indication to me that even if they don't publicly state it, they know something is up. The vote I think was 97 to 3.

6/15/2017 11:01:06 AM

i try to remember as many details about this as i can because i know one day my grandchildren will interview me about it for a school project

6/15/2017 8:57:05 PM

Quote :

"So have the goalposts officially been moved from "Trump colluding with Russia" to "Trump obstructed justice"?"

you realize that the initial inquiries weren't into whether or not trump personally colluded with russia. it was whether or not the campaign, or anyone who was "working" on behalf of the campaign was working with russia, especially given russia's attempt to hack into so many aspects of the campaign.

given trump's actions as the investigation was continuing, yes, it can now move to including obstruction of justice.

the first of the articles of impeachment against nixon was actually obstruction of justice, fwiw.

Quote :

"In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his consitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice"

(yes i understand that i'm bringing facts to a tww soapbox conversation)

6/15/2017 9:00:37 PM

you just got trolled

6/15/2017 10:57:53 PM

Quote :

"Mueller "

Why is his name pronounced "Muller" and not "Müller"?

How does the American press pronounce Thomas Müller's (German soccer star) name? Anybody know? JCE, would you like to finally contribute something to the thread?

It is very important that we pronounce his name correctly, as we will all be talking about him next week when he shows Trump who the real HNIC is.

6/16/2017 7:01:41 AM

Thomas Moo-ler

Counsel Mew-ler

At least for me.

6/16/2017 7:20:59 AM

Quote :

"you realize that the initial inquiries weren't into whether or not trump personally colluded with russia"

95% of TWW was certain that the investigation was regarding Trump personally colluding with Russia up until last week when Comey shit all over that conspiracy theory. There are multiple individuals in this thread that still swear up and down that the pissgate dossier is real and that Trump is the mastermind behind a Russian election hack, despite also claiming Trump to be too stupid to collude with his own family or legal council.

This appears to be what the Democrats have decided to rally behind, and this point they need for this to drag out until the 2018 elections. If we get to Summer 2018 and Mueller concludes this is all a bunch of nothing, Republicans will likely end up with a supermajority in the Senate.

6/16/2017 9:42:56 AM

The thing to look for is the money trail. The connection with Russian banks, Trumps finances, his previous bankruptcies, the reasons he couldn't get financing in the states, etc. This either created leverage with Russia over Trump or Trumps business at some point OR at least created the connections where collusion is possible. Most likely that Russia was giving trump financing in order to launder the money out of Russia.

I don't think Trump personally told a Russian representative to hack the election. I think there is so much weird crap going on with Cushner making money off of Trumps name post presidency, potentially Russian money laundering, the connections with Russian banks etc.

The hacking isn't my interest. Its his taxes and whats happening with Russian banks is.

So much shady crap going on. The Trump team truly doesn't believe in the security structures. Remember this crap? Paranoia of the deep state. ppppffffttttt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/blackwater-founder-held-secret-seychelles-meeting-to-establish-trump-putin-back-channel/2017/04/03/95908a08-1648-11e7-ada0-1489b735b3a3_story.html?utm_term=.782decd92e4d

6/16/2017 9:59:37 AM

Quote :

"95% of TWW was certain that the investigation was regarding Trump personally colluding with Russia up until last week when Comey shit all over that conspiracy theory. "

This is absolutely and verifiably false. Were there a few? Yes. But the vast majority of us said that Trump himself was not ever going to be found to have colluded.

Quote :

"This appears to be what the Democrats have decided to rally behind, and this point they need for this to drag out until the 2018 elections. If we get to Summer 2018 and Mueller concludes this is all a bunch of nothing, Republicans will likely end up with a supermajority in the Senate."

This is pretty crazy too. And healthcare has been demonstrably a larger issue.

[Edited on June 16, 2017 at 10:09 AM. Reason : X]

6/16/2017 10:06:22 AM

Anyone still feeling trump makes it through his first term? Guys having a meltdown this weekend on twitter.

Meanwhile its official policy to deport parents of legal kids now.

6/16/2017 10:10:12 AM

Quote :

"95% of TWW was certain that the investigation was regarding Trump personally colluding with Russia up until last week when Comey shit all over that "

You're hiding behind semantics. They were investigating the "Trump Campaign." You're an asshat if you think that "campaign" qualifier vindicates Trump. It's a matter of time before one of the names individuals of the campaign some how implicate Trump (unless they really take those loyalty oaths seriously).

Quote :

"Republicans will win a supermajority"

Running on what? Their healthcare bill? Their Muslim ban? Do you remember how long the GOP was able to make hay in the court of public opinion over Benghazi (even well after all investigations were concluded). This isn't going to evaporate even if Mueller decides tomorrow this is all a nothingburger. Trumps fellating of everything Russia will ensure this entire scandal follows him to his grave (for good reason)


^^^yes, RICO RICO RICO. Just reading about the amount of Russian laundered money flowing to all points of the planet is mind boggling. The potential is there to sink a whole host of people unrelated to Trump IMO.

[Edited on June 16, 2017 at 10:14 AM. Reason : I'll put it out there, I 100% believe Trump is guilty of collusion with Russian intelligence]

6/16/2017 10:12:42 AM

You think Trump personally or the Trump campaign?

I think there's a good chance that Trump did not know about any collusion (regardless of if there was any), which is why he's flipping his shit on twitter. I would think someone who knew they were guilty wouldn't act this outrageous.

Then again, what do I know.

6/16/2017 10:49:26 AM

Trump has acted like this over demonstrably false statements many times, you can't say that he is probably innocent because he is acting outrageous

collusion doesn't have to mean that trump was directing anything specific or involved in the election infiltration, that is why i used the word connections instead

------

It is being reported that Jared Kushner's financed and business dealings are being investigated, as well as the financial dealings of other associates.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-jared-kushners-business-dealings/2017/06/15/5d9a32c6-51f2-11e7-91eb-9611861a988f_story.html?utm_term=.a34145c8cecf

[Edited on June 16, 2017 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

6/16/2017 11:49:42 AM

Trump's hubris requires he flip his shit anytime ANYONE questions his actions.

I'm saying that while Trump is likely not the mastermind, he knew exactly what was going on in the campaign. Knowing someone is illegally colluding on your behalf is the same as doing it yourself.

6/16/2017 11:55:00 AM

Yeah, fair point. Poor choice of words on my behalf. Should have said "best case scenario".

6/16/2017 12:18:49 PM

So in the leftist's wetdream where Trump gets impeached, what is the "smoking gun"?

By using vague terminology like "collusion with Russia" there is too much flexibility for them to move the goalposts. What is the actual belief from the left:

Did Trump make deals with Russia to coordinate the release of the Podesta emails in exchange for reduced sanctions? Is that it?

So that is looking like a debunked witch hunt... so naturally now the goalposts have moved to "did trump obstruct the witch hunt"...

6/16/2017 12:24:25 PM

Quote :

"i'd encourage everyone to just ignore JCE2011 in this thread, it should be obvious to you that he is trolling and has no interest in a good intentioned debate or discussion"

6/16/2017 12:31:50 PM

I'd rather trump ride out 4 years and get nothing done.

Impeachment is lame.

6/16/2017 12:37:49 PM

I'm hoping we get president Pence, and they end up having to hire a special investigator to determine why the White House electric bill is so high. 2024 is a long time away though...

6/16/2017 1:08:57 PM

Pence lawyered up too

6/16/2017 1:19:18 PM

All that means is that he will be questioned by the special council.

I expect the entire cabinet to get lawyers at some point. Doesn't meant they are necessarily guilty. You have to get a lawyer if you get questioned no matter what.

I mean, There is no way that trump or the campaign was in any position to do anything helpful with the hacking. They didnt have access to anything. If they said, yes Russian representative, we would appreciate it if you hacked them, is that illegal? I guess so if they knew it was going to happen and didn't do anything about it.

Best case scenario for Democrats, in all honesty, is for Trump to stay in office for 4 years. 4 years of associating him with the Republican brand.

Then you will have to go all the way back to Bush Sr. for an effective Republican presidency.

But Trump in office overall is awful for the country. I mean for cheeseballs sake, hes allowing coal miners to dump their horrible chemicals into rivers. West Virginia/Kentucky area already has much higher levels of cancer than the rest of the nation.

In what world is that a good idea? Saving a 100 year old technology? Need to focus on future industries so US is primed to have those industries making US jobs.

Registered independent*

[Edited on June 16, 2017 at 1:57 PM. Reason : *]

6/16/2017 1:56:52 PM

Lobbyist for Russian interests says he attended dinners hosted by Sessions
Richard Burt contradicts Jeff Sessions’ testimony that he didn’t believe he had contacts with lobbyists working for Russian interests during Trump’s campaign
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/15/lobbyist-russian-interests-jeff-sessions-testimony

Quote :

"Several media reports published before Trump’s election in November noted that Burt advised then candidate Trump on his first major foreign policy speech, a role that brought him into contact with Sessions personally. Burt, who previously served on the advisory board of Alfa Capital Partners, a private equity fund where Russia’s Alfa Bank was an investor and last year was lobbying on behalf of a pipeline company that is now controlled by Gazprom, Russia’s state-controlled energy conglomerate, first told Politico in October that he had been invited to two dinners that were hosted by Sessions last summer, at the height of the presidential campaign."

Quote :

"Other outlets, including the New Yorker magazine and Reuters, also reported last year that Burt had contributed his views to Trump’s speech. When NPR interviewed Burt in May 2016 about the talk, he said he was “asked to provide a draft for that speech, and parts of that draft survived into the final [version]”."

luckily sessions is suffering from amnesia

6/16/2017 2:06:18 PM

https://twitter.com/natashabertrand/status/875804079930449920

Quote :

"FBI also looking at his firm's data analytics programs to see if it coordinated with Russian bots to push out fake news during the election"

This is the kind of thing that is interesting to me. Not sure it would be illegal in any way but fits the definition of campaign collusion to a degree. Again, preying on ignorance isn't illegal as best I can tell but it is highly unethical.

[Edited on June 16, 2017 at 4:00 PM. Reason : Added quite]

6/16/2017 3:59:37 PM

^this is actually a good point. In some cases the bots and propaganda are likely legal (although I'm not sure what kind of reporting to the FEC is required).

But the voter data/big data question goes deeper IMO. Cambridge Analytica is part owned by the Mercers, who were huge Trump supporters (ran a big ass SuperPAC). They're also best buds with Erik Prince, who I believe someone posted a link to his meetings with Russian Oligarches in the Seychelles. Prince is also best buds with Mike Pence.

It's these types of multi-layered connections, everywhere, that have me convinced. Some will just be normal relationships that were just coincident. Some, I think, will turn out to be nefarious.

6/16/2017 4:19:18 PM

^ DEEP STATE EXPOSED?

6/16/2017 4:39:44 PM

^^ I can't see that amounting to anything: You can't punish somebody for hiring an external firm just because those guys had "nefarious" connections. They are gonna need the smoking gun or a signed confession from somebody high up.

Trump knows that he can just wade out the bad press. The people that hate him and want him to resign would have hated him regardless.

It is the exact same as what happened with Hillary and why it took democrats so long to realize that her FBI investigation was actually a very big deal. People are gonna tote the party line when push comes to shove, regardless.

6/16/2017 4:51:24 PM

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-probe-follow-the-money-mueller-2017-6

6/16/2017 5:03:09 PM

What about the way Donald Trump deals with the media makes you think that he can just wait it out?

6/16/2017 5:29:06 PM

Quote :

" I can't see that amounting to anything: You can't punish somebody for hiring an external firm just becaus"

What I'm saying is some of this could raise bigger questions than "is Trump a criminal?"

All kinds of big data questions: was Cambridge data/algorithms used to target voters by Russia? Does Cambridge have any hacked voter roll data? How effective are these personalized social media campaigns? We're commercial marketing bots used by Russia?

Then campaign finance questions: SuperPAC coordination with campaigns, billionaires going beyond just spending money and actually building a big data company focused on politics. A foreign agent's really effective propaganda campaign, general transparency on whom is funding a message while in media.

I'm not saying the FBI should be kicking in doors (yet) over the above, they are just "what ifs." I think we will be asking similiar questions to those in the next few years.

6/16/2017 6:23:21 PM

Quote :

"I think we will be asking similiar questions to those in the next few years."

I'm sure FakeNews will be pushing this narrative for years, unless there actually is a scandal they can pivot to later on.

6/16/2017 7:07:55 PM

Benghazi!

6/16/2017 11:37:30 PM

Quote :

"What about the way Donald Trump deals with the media makes you think that he can just wait it out?"

Simply because he has always been able to do that, time after time, no matter how serious people think that the outcome may be. So, either he is a brilliant master mind at steering the public opinion when he needs to, or there is something else going on with the election system that we don't understand yet.

Again, without a smoking gun, he will just walk it out. Our very own Teflon Don.

On the other side, in terms of him staying on as president, he has also done a fairly damn good job of doing absolutely nothing. Although he has been able to shift the blame around for all of his blunders, he has been a master of doing nothing.

6/17/2017 3:21:46 AM