i mean this has definitely both hurt trump and energized dem voters

i don't think democrats have managed this nearly as well as they could have, but any concern that it has hurt them seems unwarranted

12/18/2019 2:48:13 PM

Full transparency: Democrats are totally deranged and they would have impeached Trump for jaywalking if they could. The whole "this is a solemn duty that we take very seriously" thing is a total sham and an act. This is about dunking on Trump, nothing more, nothing less. I expect Republicans will do the same in the future if they get the opportunity if it makes sense strategically.

But - aside from all of that which is plainly true - it's also just bad strategy AFAICT.

Quote :

"i don't think democrats have managed this nearly as well as they could have, but any concern that it has hurt them seems unwarranted"

Oh. What are you looking at? I'm looking at polls and betting odds.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 2:49 PM. Reason : ]

12/18/2019 2:48:53 PM

i'm also looking at polls

lol at betting odds

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 2:58 PM. Reason : also looking at trump's deranged behavior, he hates being investigated and that's good for dems]

12/18/2019 2:58:21 PM

Betting odds are a pretty good indicator of what people actually think is likely to happen, but polls are fine too.

Do you expect Trump to drop in the polls after the House finishes up impeachment? If it has no effect, or if his numbers improve, I would consider impeachment to be a failure strategically.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 3:05 PM. Reason : ]

12/18/2019 3:03:18 PM

sorry mate still laughing at the betting odds

12/18/2019 3:04:41 PM

it IS a failure strategically but people like dtr dont care because they can only focus on "the base."

thats fine of course... just annoying.

12/18/2019 3:07:23 PM

i mean lindsey graham is polling almost even with a dem challenger, so i'm obviously not just focusing on the base

12/18/2019 3:14:14 PM

Quote :

"Full transparency: Democrats are totally deranged"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gop-rep-barry-loudermilk-compares-trump-to-jesus-says-pontius-pilate-was-fairer-than-democrats

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/gop-rep-compares-trump-impeachment-to-pearl-harbor-this-date-will-live-in-infamy/

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 3:20 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2019 3:19:07 PM

Gohmert just went crazy for being called out for spouting russian propoganda

12/18/2019 3:44:36 PM

For Bubster and the Tanzanian:

Quote :

"You are attempting to with legal means overthrow impeach the elected president of the United States which later today will move on to the Senate for the 3rd time in the nation's 243-year history, and you're not going to enforce witnesses to comply with subpoenas you sent out to provide information to support this effect BECAUSE YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT OPTICS!"

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 3:48 PM. Reason : /]

12/18/2019 3:47:30 PM

Quote :

"Would this be the first completely partisan impeachment vote, e.g. with 100% of the opposing party voting for, and 100% of the incumbent party voting against?"

This is not even going to have that. There are 2 confirmed Democrat votes against both articles and a 3rd Democrat from Maine is said to be only voting for abuse of power.

Every single Democrat in the Senate for Andrew Johnson's and Bill Clinton's impeachment trials voted against. All articles of impeachment for Johnson the Republicans voted 35-10. Senate Republicans on the articles for Clinton went 45-10 and 50-5.

Johnson's House impeachment was 126-47 with 17 not voting. I don't know what the party breakdown was but looking at the 1866 midterm election results, Republicans held a 147-44-1 edge, so I assume every single Democrat voted against and 2 or 3 Republicans voted against.

House votes for Clinton is past Nixon the most bipartisan one we've had then:

Perjury to a grand jury: 228-206 in favor, 223-5 Republican, 5-200 Democrat, 0-1 Independent)
Obstruction of justice: 221-212 in favor, 216-12 Republican, 5-199 Democrat, 0-1 Independent)
Second count of perjury in Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit: failed 205-229
Abuse of power: failed 148-285

Without the 5 Democrats the obstruction of justice article would've failed the House.

Quote :

"Five Democrats (Virgil Goode, Ralph Hall, Paul McHale, Charles Stenholm and Gene Taylor) voted in favor of three of the four articles of impeachment, but only Taylor voted for the abuse of power charge. Five Republicans (Amo Houghton, Peter King, Connie Morella, Chris Shays and Mark Souder) voted against the first perjury charge. Eight more Republicans (Sherwood Boehlert, Michael Castle, Phil English, Nancy Johnson, Jay Kim, Jim Leach, John McHugh and Ralph Regula), but not Souder, voted against the obstruction charge. Twenty-eight Republicans voted against the second perjury charge, sending it to defeat, and eighty-one voted against the abuse of power charge. "

About the only impeachment I can ever see getting conviction in the Senate is if a third party reformer outside the mainstream type ever won the presidency. (Ross Perot, Jesse Ventura, Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders if they won in 2016 as independents)

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 4:05 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2019 3:58:52 PM

Quote :

" This is not even going to have that. There are 2 confirmed Democrat votes against both articles and a 3rd Democrat from Maine is said to be only voting for abuse of power."

Justin Amash does not exist. He is a figment of everyone’s imagination.

12/18/2019 4:12:59 PM

Justin Amash is not a Republican. He's an independent.

12/18/2019 4:14:00 PM

Who gives a fuck? He’s still conservative. And his voting yes is not partisan, is it?

JVD is a Democrat for like 18 more hours.

(Also, Tulsi is going to vote present I bet)

12/18/2019 4:15:32 PM

Quote :

"Who gives a fuck?"

Well you do it looks.

Quote :

"He’s still conservative. And his voting yes is not partisan, is it?"

It's not partisan in the sense of his party registration is independent and I don't believe he is a member of either main party caucus in the House.

Quote :

"JVD is a Democrat for like 18 more hours."

Yes.

12/18/2019 4:23:08 PM

I don't think the democrats are deranged. I think they have a plan and are executing it exactly to that strategy. I just don't think we fully understand what their plan is but it might ultimately involve strengthening Trump. We don't have all the information but I do know that a large deal of the partisan illusion is to keep us distracted and it works. No one is talking about big things that are happening. No one is talking about the Afghanistan report, Bernie surge, or democrats simultaneous backroom deals with Trump on the budget. No ones talking about dems voting to approve the space force, medicare cuts to PR, and increased defense budget. In that sense, this is working.

Something changed between January when Pelosi was against impeachment and now when they are impeaching on a technicality. She said it was too divisive. I think that change was how they saw their odds of winning with Biden in 2020. Things were definitely trending towards Trump/warren/bernie and they just decided to try to shake everything up.

I feel like the democrats realized that regular politics couldn't defeat Trump's populism because it would require them moving further left than their donors would allow. They saw that he was going to expose Biden and that was the matchup they wanted. I think they've long realized that since they can't beat Trump with populism, they have to fight him on technicalities. They are fighting a two front war and feel cornered right now which is why they are lashing out as a last ditch effort. They have no other options.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 7:18 PM. Reason : impeaching while passing his budget]

12/18/2019 7:08:10 PM

horosho mad his boy getting impeached

12/18/2019 7:27:53 PM

I know you didn't intend for it to be that intelligent but this could actually be the day that causes Bernie to get impeached.

12/18/2019 7:33:14 PM

If Bernie does what Trump did, then he should be impeached. So I’m good with it.

Also, if you don’t think Trump and the GOP won’t do the same exact thing to Bernie that they did to Biden you are a moron.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 7:48 PM. Reason : The dumbass fake Jane Sanders “scandal” will absolutely by front and center of his campaign]

12/18/2019 7:47:38 PM

Holy shit are there any GOP arguments beyond:

1. Process (the rules weren't broken)

2. Why isn't the whistle blower testifying? (irrelevant)

3. Democrats have always wanted to impeach Trump! (irrelevant)

4. No first-hand witnesses! (then let's question Mulvaney, Giuliani, and Bolton)

12/18/2019 7:49:22 PM

So got out my "Clinton Impeached" newspaper from the News & Observer. Almost 21 years to the day ironically, Clinton was impeached tomorrow.

Underneath a huge picture of Clinton is the ancillary headline of "Clinton, Blair Calls for Saddam's Ouster" as the U.S. and Britain ended Iraqi airstrikes.

12/18/2019 7:52:31 PM

Also lol at Collins.

Is this shyster shitheel really the face of the GOP defense?

12/18/2019 8:08:31 PM

Quote :

"Also, if you don’t think Trump and the GOP won’t do the same exact thing to Bernie that they did to Biden you are a moron."

Of course they would (dems would) but the premise is that Bernie isn't a politician hanging on by a thread so thin it could be broken by a random leader saying "hey, we're investigating this guy"

Imagine the country saying, "Welp, Bernie may have done something corrupt, I guess I don't want healthcare, education or a future for our planet anymore" . Its different for Biden because he's running on being himself and not things that he will do.

This is the dynamic democrats never understood. When you run on policy and populism instead of just being "the right guy", that type of character stuff doesn't matter at all. RESULTS are all that matters. Hence why Trump is so popular even though every one of his supports knows he's a piece of shit. He's THEIR piece of shit. He's a piece of shit that gives conservative judges, tax cuts, healthy markets, and holds back the erosion of white identity by suppressing the border. Trump could shoot someone, and it wouldn't hurt him unless he stopped fighting for their cause.

12/18/2019 8:11:10 PM

Pssssttt. His base likes him because he hates the right people and he’s racist as fuck, not his policy. The GOP establishment likes him because judges and tax cuts.

Bernie’s base is less about grievance and more about policy than Trump and it’s not close. Totally different IMO.

12/18/2019 8:15:36 PM

Hell yeah, they impeached the motherfucker!

12/18/2019 8:35:31 PM

Tulsi aint about that groupthink

12/18/2019 8:37:37 PM

Excited to see what her post politics grift is.

12/18/2019 8:43:36 PM

^^ or most other types of think.

12/18/2019 8:51:27 PM

Trump officially impeached for abuse of power.

Final vote: 230-197, 3 no votes

Democrats: 229-2, 1 voted present which CNN says is Tulsi Gabbard, 1 no vote
Republicans: 0-195 (there was for a couple minutes a Republican yea, it got switched), 2 no votes
Amash yea

Trump impeached for obstruction of Congress.

Final vote: 229-198.

Democrats: 228-3, 1 present, 1 no vote
Republicans: 0-195, 2 no votes
Amash yea

Don't know who the 3 no votes were.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 8:59 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2019 8:59:19 PM

JVD and Colin Peterson (MN Dem who won in a Trump +31 district) were the NOs in both. Golden from Maine was the other no.

Essentially Colin Peterson was the only Dem who voted no and one independent voted yes.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 9:03 PM. Reason : X]

12/18/2019 9:02:52 PM

There's some kind of strategy play now of Pelosi considering sitting on the impeachment and not sending them to the Senate immediately. The stated reason is she doesn't know the structure of the Senate trial and wants to ensure it's a fair trial.

The talking heads on CNN are saying this would be a case of the House impeaching the president and he would not be acquitted (unlike Johnson and Clinton) if the House never sent the articles of impeachment. This is the House trying to influence the internal rules of the Senate trial to their ends, which good politics on the part of Pelosi.

Should point out this is the first time we've ever had an impeachment trial where the 2 Houses are controlled by separate parties.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 9:24 PM. Reason : /]

12/18/2019 9:18:48 PM

ooh damn horosho called out:

Quote :

"Tulsi Gabbard's current political identity is incoherent, but the one thread is that she panders to white male bitter incels (she has the lowest percentage of female donations of any candidate) who snidely mock the impeachment proceedings because they get to feel above it all."

-EmmaVigeland

12/18/2019 9:20:01 PM

Incels? That person is an embarrassing caricature of a democrat.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 9:25 PM. Reason : word salad]

12/18/2019 9:24:22 PM

She’s an anti-establishment leftist who supports Bernie Sanders.

But you do you.

12/18/2019 9:29:06 PM

You do realize that the republican caricature of a democrats is that they are all full-blown socialists who think anyone who disagrees with anything they say is a sexist, racist, homophobic, white, male, incel?

That would include the things you just mentioned.

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 9:35 PM. Reason : caricatures are of course, based on some reality]

[Edited on December 18, 2019 at 9:38 PM. Reason : I'm not like that. I think people aligned with me can be wrong sometimes too. ]

12/18/2019 9:35:32 PM

Looks like an accurate description of Tulsi's base to me

12/18/2019 9:44:35 PM

The Democratic primary candidates and electorate have turned Tulsi Gabbard into what Ron Paul 2008 was to the Republican Party presidential field that year.

So I have this crazy theory I conjured up.

Pelosi decides to sit on impeachment throughout almost all of 2020.

It initially removes one of the main complaints some Democratic Senators have of the 5 running for President are expected to campaign while also required to be jurors for a trial in the first couple months of the year.

So she waits it out til the primaries are over/Democratic field is whittled down so it's not as much a concern for the Senators. It becomes a will she or won't she and dominates conversation of what should be a conversation about the Democratic presidential candidate and the incumbent president as is normal in an election year.

This is highly political, but she could choose to send the articles of impeachment to the Senate to time for 2 different things:

1.) Trial is held right before the election next November, say September/October timeframe.
2.) Trial is held after the election next November in the lame duck congressional period. If Trump loses in November and Pelosi chooses to do this, the Republicans in the Senate would have no loyalty to Trump, and Trump may just resign at this point, at which point you get a very lame duck brief Mike Pence presidency.

12/18/2019 10:08:46 PM

If Pelosi sits on it until the primaries are over why wouldn’t Turtle Fuck McConnell just sit on it also? I mean he did it for an entire year with a Supreme Court nomination.

12/18/2019 10:16:36 PM

Quote :

"Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell doesn’t want to deal with an impeachment trial for his party’s president. Trying to put pressure on him by …. not making him hold an impeachment trial … doesn’t seem to add up. So I asked this to plan proponent Rep. Earl Blumenauer."

Quote :

"Blumenauer said the point isn’t to put pressure on McConnell, it’s to have this hanging over Trump indefinitely with no acquittal. “Trump will go crazy. He cannot contain himself.” And if Trump is raging, that causes stress for all Republicans."

Quote :

"He also said this buys more time for court decisions to come in, possibly meaning more documents or witnesses to add to the impeachment case. (Of course, this also pushes the schedule back as a handful of Dem senators are running to be president) — Paul McLeod (@pdmcleod) December 19, 2019"

12/18/2019 10:21:48 PM

I say hold on the articles indefinitely and continue to investigate Trump non-stop until an actual trial with witness testimony can take place.

It’s pretty obvious this whole thing bothers him, and he’s itching to brag about being acquitted, so why give him the satisfaction?

12/18/2019 10:37:20 PM

I get the strategy and it's a good ploy from Pelosi. I do feel if it sits for a long time it robs the face value legitimacy of the impeachment as far as "somber mood, look at the president's actions, we had to do this" versus "this was a federally-funded campaign commercial for the 2020 general election, thank you taxpayers!"

12/18/2019 11:00:31 PM

Seemed really dumb by Dems, but if Pelosi sits on this thing... it actually is quite brilliant.

All these Republican Senators running their mouths about how they aren't impartial, will get this thing over with quick, going to work with the White House - gives the justification for Pelosi to just then wait till it seems more fair to pass along. The Senators couldn't just keep their mouths shut, and it seemed really dumb to just Impeach and hand it over ASAP to a group that will clear it out with plenty of time to wipe all this away before the election.

But if she really just sits on it and never sends to the Senate(which didn't know was even an option) then it was a really serious 4D chess move. But I'll believe it when a week from now they don't cave and send it over.

12/18/2019 11:15:18 PM

im not sure which approach makes the right more rabid?

12/19/2019 7:19:12 AM

https://twitter.com/garretthaake/status/1207657517767151616?s=21

FWIW, when Mitch goes up and blusters about Pelosi having no confidence and playing games with the articles know that he already knew, expected it and is gaslighting the country. I know that’s what Mitch does and who he is but this context is important in this case.

Pelosi isn’t going to do this and give the right a chance to claim the moderate wing voting for impeachment caused a government shutdown.

[Edited on December 19, 2019 at 8:47 AM. Reason : X]

12/19/2019 8:46:47 AM

i assume she'll only hold the articles as leverage to work out rules for the senate trial

12/19/2019 8:52:42 AM

except thats only the way it works in your pea brain

12/19/2019 9:11:03 AM

i mean that's the leading consensus, stoner

12/19/2019 9:53:11 AM

I’m amazed the Republicans have the balls to openly announce they have no intention of holding a fair trial

It really feels very authoritarian. It’s not an exaggeration to say the gop does not believe in the principles of democracy whatsoever. Between gerrymandering, vote suppression, refusing to vote on Democratic nominees and bills, refusing to testify in congress, now refusing to have a fair trial as defined in the Constitution. I

12/19/2019 9:53:40 AM

Hi guys and gals. How's it going?

12/19/2019 10:00:14 AM

^ We need a new party that can vanquish these current 2.

12/19/2019 10:03:38 AM