can you really blame people for not wanting to organize/demonstrate huge protests, though? Innocent POC are frequently murdered by the police for minding their own business, so for a lot of people, attending a rally is a total no-go. Did the riots in Ferguson or Oakland really move the needle all that much?

And yeah, it's shitty that people will take to Twitter and the comments sections to voice their dissent, but what seems to be working pretty well is boycotting shitty people's politics by fucking with their wallets.


All this nonsense about Huckabee-Sanders is exactly what Trump and Co. want. Why something like this didn't happen sooner is such a mystery, especially considering the timing of the whole baby prison hullabaloo...

6/27/2018 5:43:52 PM

Quote :

"what seems to be working pretty well is boycotting shitty people's politics by fucking with their wallets"

except if you suggest that we should withhold voting for these people, you're met with massive backlash about "enabling republicans" (and i don't just mean Clinton)

6/27/2018 6:11:03 PM

I mean sure? But the last time I checked, you can vote however you want and nobody will ever actually know who you voted for, unless you tell them.

If you feel 'guilty' about casting your vote one way or another, maybe you should think more carefully before you cast your ballot.

6/27/2018 6:23:01 PM

Quote :

"but what seems to be working pretty well is boycotting shitty people's politics by fucking with their wallets."

The best way to fuck with someone's wallet is to deprive them of your labor. Simple boycotts are not sufficiently effective because they limit change within the framework of consumer capitalism. The business elite understand this, that's why they're changing the courts in their favor to suppress labor power and organizing power within the workforce. Adding justices like Gorsuch and whichever other right-wing ghoul is going to replace Kennedy is a key component in crushing dissent by making people's living conditions so precarious that skipping work could literally be the difference between having a home/basic medicare/etc vs living underneath a bridge.

6/27/2018 6:25:49 PM

Quote :

"I mean sure? But the last time I checked, you can vote however you want and nobody will ever actually know who you voted for, unless you tell them. If you feel 'guilty' about casting your vote one way or another, maybe you should think more carefully before you cast your ballot."

i don't. but the narrative works.

6/27/2018 6:35:29 PM

^^ the #metoo movement, Roseanne getting canceled, Lara Ingram losing sponsors for saying vile shit, are some quick examples that came to mind that aren't solely related to labor and skeezy DC politicians. My point was that some palpable change is happening without people taking it to the streets like they did in the 1960s. For a lot of people, it's way easier to punish individuals and corporations by boycotting them, than it is for them to cross the picket line at work, or to spend an afternoon at protest. It would be great if this strategy could carry over to election day, but a lot of people feel more empowered as consumers than they do as citizens in a representative "democracy". It's passive-aggressive as fuck, but hey, that's how shit goes these days.

It's not that I'm disagreeing with either of you; I'm just saying that the uprising/revolution we've seen in the past isn't as easy to pull off in 2018- especially with regressive government that people are actually afraid of. Or, at the very least, it certainly doesn't seem that way to me.

If you have any bright ideas to get people to get off their asses in other ways, I'd be happy to hear them.

[Edited on June 27, 2018 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

6/27/2018 7:17:59 PM

classy af imo

6/27/2018 7:31:24 PM

Quote :

"the #metoo movement, Roseanne getting canceled, Lara Ingram losing sponsors for saying vile shit, are some quick examples that came to mind that aren't solely related to labor and skeezy DC politicians. My point was that some palpable change is happening without people taking it to the streets like they did in the 1960s."

Dude....we're locking babies in cages, have an out of control police state, union busting, denying people basic healthcare services and the right to vote, increasing our carceral state and sending troops to fucking space all the while CEO vs worker incomes continue to stratify. Donald Trump is president, for fuck's sake.

Getting Bill O'Reilly fired from his cushy desk at Fox News, and getting Roseanne fired are NOT substitutes for fundamental political change.

We're not going to tweet our way to equality.

6/27/2018 7:51:54 PM

Quote :

"If you have any bright ideas to get people to get off their asses in other ways, I'd be happy to hear them."

6/27/2018 8:04:13 PM

Quote :

"deprive them of your labor"

6/27/2018 8:08:58 PM

The things we need are the things you can't talk about, we need revolution, this is a failed democracy

6/27/2018 8:09:05 PM

Seriously, you may not like it, but organizing the workforce is a necessity at this point.

Getting people to collectivize their bargaining power takes money out of the pockets of the most well off and puts some of it back into the pockets of the workers. They can't make their billions without exploiting their workforce.

6/27/2018 8:10:52 PM

Quote :

"this is a failed democracy"

Richest country in the world = "failed." Ok. Power waning? Sure. Failed? Lol.

And it's pretty simplistic to call the US a simple democracy

Quote :

"Getting people to collectivize their bargaining power..."

Good luck. The state of employment is much more complex and fluid than it was when unions were all the rage. As such, people like their paychecks and their ability to support their families.

6/27/2018 8:18:06 PM

Inverted totalitarianism is failed democracy

6/27/2018 8:28:04 PM

Quote :

"As such, people like their paychecks and their ability to support their families."

This is an argument FOR collective bargaining, not against.


Have fun demanding a decent salary and dignified existence against a corporate tycoon with billions of dollars stacked against you all by yourself.


Amazon worker: Uhh, Mr. Bezos, I'd like a decent wage and a bathroom break so that I don't have to wear diapers to work every day?

Bezos: Fuck you, you're fired. There's an entire army of unemployed laborers at my disposal who can replace you

6/27/2018 8:30:34 PM

Once the trade wars Trump has started crash the stock market and people lose their jobs/homes/savings/everything, "taking it to the streets" will be an easy sell.

Right now? Nah.

6/27/2018 8:38:07 PM

Quote :

"Once the trade wars Trump has started crash the stock market and people lose their jobs/homes/savings/everything, "taking it to the streets" will be an easy sell"

Once this stuff happens the thin veil of democracy comes completely off and any and all dissent becomes criminalized. Trump and his team aren't the kind of people who are pressured to the left. They will begin scapegoating brown people and sending them to these detention camps to keep their base happy with while they finish off their final transfer of wealth to their corporate oligarchs. They will also look the other way as they encourage the hateful rhetoric of the right wing to transcend into open acts of vigilante violence against poor communities and communities of color.

That's not hyperbolic.

[Edited on June 27, 2018 at 8:44 PM. Reason : ]

6/27/2018 8:43:12 PM

Quote :

"Amazon worker: Uhh, Mr. Bezos..."

That's a great sample size of one, and yes, a painfully obvious case of workers who could benefit from collective bargaining, but their workforces aren't geographically or technically special. Amazon could just hire a bunch of replacement warehouse workers if they needed to. We're all pretty inner-connected and incredibly mobile these days, which was not the case back in the day. And that's just your most superior current use case for collective bargaining. That argument doesn't extend into the majority of workers. Not even close.

6/27/2018 8:47:17 PM

^^ so you agree that we're screwed and it's almost too late to do much of anything, other than get out and vote for candidates that can stop the collapse of America?

6/27/2018 8:50:13 PM

i mean, i think we are in a very dark place and thinks could get very bad very quickly.

but the time to organize is now, not later when they've criminalized and begun cracking down on dissent, activists, and labor agitators

6/27/2018 8:52:31 PM

Quote :

"Amazon could just hire a bunch of replacement warehouse workers if they needed to. We're all pretty inner-connected and incredibly mobile these days, which was not the case back in the day"

It's like you've never heard of scabs

Quote :

"That argument doesn't extend into the majority of workers. Not even close."

Teachers. Jesus, this just happened in your state like two months ago.

6/27/2018 8:56:23 PM

Quote :

"It's like you've never heard of scabs"

It's like you're not understanding that "scabs" can from anywhere in the country now. Amazon's workers are not special.

[Edited on June 27, 2018 at 9:02 PM. Reason : This ain't the 50's]

6/27/2018 8:59:43 PM

Yes, that's why you have to dare people to cross a picket line.

Your entire argument against solidarity seems to boil down to "solidarity is hard." We're already aware of that. Solidarity has always been hard. Even during the days of coal mine strikes and the pinkertons. But its also contagious, and having workers seize public space to demand redress is literally the most democratic and civic function a civilian can do.

6/27/2018 10:22:33 PM

Quote :

"Yes, that's why you have to dare people to cross a picket line."

So you can get arrested for assault? No thanks. This ain't the 50's. And you're not going to able to hold this "scab" status against your neighbors anymore. These workers are going to be imported and don't care about your labels.

Quote :

"Your entire argument against solidarity seems to boil down to "solidarity is hard."

Cool strawman, but I've clearly said:

Quote :

"their workforces aren't geographically or technically special"

Quote :

"We're all pretty inner-connected and incredibly mobile these days, which was not the case back in the day"

Quote :

"This ain't the 50's"

6/27/2018 10:30:11 PM

Quote :

"having workers seize public space to demand redress is literally the most democratic and civic function a civilian can do"

Agreed. I'm down with the cause, but I'm arguing it's effectiveness is far from what it used to be, given the developments I cited, and others I didn't, including decades of unfavorable court decisions (see today's Janus ruling)

6/27/2018 10:33:55 PM

The teacher strikes didn't actually happen because labor can't organize anymore because its not the 50's

6/27/2018 10:41:37 PM

Quote :

"The teacher strikes didn't actually happen because labor can't organize anymore "

More great strawmen, but right above that I said:

Quote :

" it's effectiveness is far from what it used to be"

and you can't assault scabs anymore...or did the teachers crack some skulls and I missed the story?

[Edited on June 27, 2018 at 10:45 PM. Reason : I'm a member of a union. I'm aware of their uses and limitations.]

6/27/2018 10:44:33 PM

as i said before, i don't think it can continue to be nonviolent, people can only be placated for so long

6/28/2018 8:10:04 AM

So what acts of violence do you plan on committing? Or are you calling on other people to be violent while you sit behind a keyboard?

6/28/2018 11:52:37 AM

have you become so fat and happy that you don't think there could be a resurgence of the kind of stuff that was common just a few decades ago? protest bombings were pretty common in the 70's, there was something like 150+ plane hijackings in just a few year stretch, here in Greensboro the CWP had a gunfight with the KKK in public streets in 1979. None of this stuff was that long ago. Congressional approval is in the teens, people are increasingly unhappy with the government and have a dwindling outlet for redress -- at some point things will get violent again as public trust in government falls below the already historic lows.

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 12:13 PM. Reason : sp]

6/28/2018 12:13:16 PM

Got it. So you aren't going to do anything except sit behind your computer and call for other to do the heavy lifting.

Hypocrite.

6/28/2018 12:35:29 PM

"i dont think real change is possible in this timeline unless people get violent, like in the 60s & 70s"

"OH YEAH, WELL ARE YOU GONNA BUILD THE BOMBS? HYPOCRITE"

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

6/28/2018 12:37:54 PM

HCH already has his brown shirt pressed and ready

6/28/2018 12:39:07 PM

how violent do you think it will have to be to enact real change? shooting at congressmen during baseball practice levels of violent, or much worse. Do you expect Moscow to fund these violent protest groups this time around, similar to how they funded groups like the Weather Underground?

6/28/2018 1:25:15 PM

depends on continued slow decline or collapse

6/28/2018 1:42:25 PM

Unions exist to protect mediocre workers at the expense of elite workers. Commence the autistic screeching, but if you look into your heart, you'll know it's true.

6/28/2018 1:52:31 PM

Most of the working class people (including white collar) who are against unions just seem to be jealous that union workers make so much money and are protected from being taken advantage of.

The hardliners are a lost cause, but I converted my cousin pretty easily by saying "you know dude, you could be in a union too".

6/28/2018 2:03:21 PM

Our construction company is full of people that used to work for union companies and refuse to ever go back. The consensus was that they made more money in a non-union shop due to more opportunities for advancement.

6/28/2018 3:22:24 PM

Unions exist to protect mediocre workers at the expense of elite workers. Commence the autistic screeching, but if you look into your heart, you'll know it's true.

I'd rather compete with and fuck over my co-worker than challenge my boss

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ]

6/28/2018 3:25:22 PM

Quote :

"Our construction company is full of people that used to work for union companies and refuse to ever go back. The consensus was that they made more money in a non-union shop due to more opportunities for advancement."

Cool, does this mean unions should not exist?

I am fine with non-union workers, I am one.

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 3:35 PM. Reason : !]

6/28/2018 3:27:55 PM

they have a right to exist, but they shouldn't be able to force everyone in an industry to participate in them, like public school teachers.

Quote :

"I'd rather compete with and fuck over my co-worker than challenge my boss"

my lazy piece of shit co-worker should be my boss someday because he worked here 1 year longer than me

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 3:35 PM. Reason : .]

6/28/2018 3:34:19 PM

so what if Unions exist so average workers can band together and have a larger voice than they would have without the union?

If you are a great worker than you obviously dont need it.

Now teacher unions are an entirely different animal bc they are state employees. I am not sure how I feel about forced participation.

6/28/2018 3:39:17 PM

^NO, you don't understand. Instead of challenging the owners and titans of industry for equitable treatment and fair pay, you're supposed to hate your co-workers because they're brown lazy

6/28/2018 3:53:29 PM

Quote :

"they shouldn't be able to force everyone in an industry to participate in them, like public school teachers."

Are you arguing that's going to continue to happen?

6/28/2018 5:39:33 PM

no, I'm saying that was wrong and SCOTUS was right to strike it down.

6/28/2018 8:58:04 PM

I don't think I can argue with that.

[Edited on June 28, 2018 at 10:10 PM. Reason : But don't worry, I'm sure someone will ]

6/28/2018 10:07:07 PM

Y’all can take your victory struts all you want, but you really need to consider the repercussions of such a drastic ruling. Alito writes that contractual negotiations with your employer are inherently political. That suggests we should start dropping equal protection rules that often come with business negotiations or when interviewing for a job.

In other words, if contractual negotiations are inherently political, what’s to stop a Democrat governor from firing all republican teachers in a given state? You can’t compel a Democrat to work with a Republican in a political negotiation.

6/29/2018 8:55:03 AM

Between the RW pundits making things up about her and Ron Paul posting horrible racist cultural Marxism nonsense it seems that Ocasio-Cortez has some people shook.

7/2/2018 12:00:50 PM

she's also got democrats shook, look at all of them warning about going too far left

my favorite was sen. duckworth saying you can't win the white house without the midwest and you can't win the midwest if you're too far left like the democratic primary never happened

7/2/2018 12:20:45 PM

Historically there is good reason for the fear of going too far left. One of my general fears is the uncertainty of how far we swing to the left as an over response to the rightward swing we've undergone lately.

That being said, with regard to her specifically, I haven't seen justification for this fear. But I know very little about her presently.

[Edited on July 2, 2018 at 12:30 PM. Reason : Sp]

7/2/2018 12:30:31 PM