^PWNT </thread>

3/27/2007 8:15:22 AM

Quote :

"wlb420 All American 3634 Posts user info edit post block user ^^every single taxpayer?"

That has nothing to do with 'police state'. I'm talking about this comment

Quote :

"empowering a vast police state to trample our civil liberties."

and this

Quote :

"and cops who can seize your assets at will"

and this

Quote :

"The fact that government thugs are willing to forcefully invade private homes, assault peaceful, non-violent citizens, haul them off to years of incarceration - only to be released with a "criminal record" that permanently damages or destroys their ability to make an honest living - all over a fucking leisure activity, is nothing short of sickening."

Does this guy know anyone, save for some pothead (the most likely case), that has had their assets seized "illegally"?

3/27/2007 9:04:58 AM

^Whether or not the "war on drugs" is the proper example is debatable... But let's not fool ourselves by pretending we don't live in a police state.

3/27/2007 9:10:54 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture

Quote :

"In civil forfeiture cases, the US Government sues the item of property, not the person; the owner is effectively a third party claimant. Once the government establishes probable cause that the property is subject to forfeiture, the owner must prove on a "preponderance of the evidence" that it is not. The owner need not be judged guilty of any crime."

Essentially they take your shit, without any need to even charge you with a crime, let alone convict you. If you want it back, the burden is on you to prove your innocence.

3/27/2007 9:22:07 AM

Quote :

"empowering a vast police state to trample our civil liberties"

civil liberties are being seized more and more, that's undenyable.

3/27/2007 9:24:55 AM

Quote :

"Essentially they take your shit, without any need to even charge you with a crime, let alone convict you. If you want it back, the burden is on you to prove your innocence."

Do you know someone this has happened to, or are you just being an alarmist?

3/27/2007 9:41:40 AM

Quote :

"let's not fool ourselves by pretending we don't live in a police state"

i hope that was sarcasm

3/27/2007 9:59:53 AM

Quote :

"The term police state is a pejorative term for a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population, especially by means of a secret police force which operates above the normal constraints found in a liberal democracy. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive."

I'm not saying we're 100% there, but if you don't think we've been headed further and further down that slippery slope in the last decade...

I'll just leave it at that.

3/27/2007 10:08:29 AM

i just know enough about saddam's iraq and north korea, for example, or nazi germany, to know that the term 'police state' gets incorrectly thrown around way too much

3/27/2007 10:11:48 AM

The condescension is noted and appreciated.

Why do people always jump to Nazi Germany as an example and hardly ever mention the significantly larger scale offenses of Communism in the Soviet Union?

And yes I realize that the DHS, FBI, etc don't have the quantity of offenses that other 20th century examples do... but we ought to remain vigilant about incidents like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Warrantless Wiretapping, widespread FBI Patriot Act abuses, and Camp X-Ray human rights violations lest we very quickly find ourselves in our own American branded Gulags.

3/27/2007 10:29:45 AM

we're more a judicial state....where gov injustices are "justified" throught laws and the judicial system.......similar end results, it just takes longer, and we have the illusion of due process.

3/27/2007 10:30:58 AM

Quote :

"but we ought to remain vigilant about incidents like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Warrantless Wiretapping, widespread FBI Patriot Act abuses, and Camp X-Ray human rights violations lest we very quickly find ourselves in our own American branded Gulags."

3/27/2007 10:31:11 AM

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1248484/?d_add_comment=1&d_last_seen_id=



speaking of the war on drugs

3/27/2007 10:32:54 AM

So what is your problem with them busting that up?

3/27/2007 11:10:24 AM

it's how they busted it up that I have an issue with...tax collection agents and soldiers to bust up victimless poker players???


and the fact that the gambling is legal if you buy the states version or go to Cherokee

(I don't play poker, I think it's retarded)

3/27/2007 11:51:25 AM

Quote :

"Do you know someone this has happened to, or are you just being an alarmist?"

I wasn't aware that a policy can only be unjust and abusive if it is turned against me and my friends. I apologize for speaking out against a policy that hasn't yet negatively impacted me. I was out of line.

All sarcasm aside. Asset forfeiture is a huge racket. The CATO institute reports that $3.2 billion in private property seizures occur annually. With such a huge amount of money available to law enforcement outside of normal appropriation channels, the incentive for abuse is massive, and they do occur.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-ma-hy.html

Quote :

"Hyde tells of Willie Jones, an African American landscaper. Simply because he paid for an airline ticket with cash in Nashville, Tennessee, the police searched Jones's luggage for drugs. They found none. When a police dog sniffed traces of drugs on the $9,600 he was carrying (a common condition for U.S. currency), the police confiscated the money. Jones could not afford to post the bond required to challenge the seizure. Instead, he sued for racial discrimination. More than two years later, the money was returned. Many other victims of forfeiture are not so fortunate. "

http://www.libertarianworld.com/Property-Seizure-Rights.html

Another article detailing some abuses, with references.

Quote :

"A married couple in Ottsville, Pennsylvania, had their $250,000 home confiscated after police found marijuana plants inside the house; the couple and their three children were effectively evicted from their own home. District Attorney Gary Gambardella, who filed the motion to confiscate the home, observed: "People say that selling drugs is a victimless crime, but the children are the real losers here." "

Quote :

"Increasingly, the mere suspicion of a government official is sufficient proof to nullify all claims that a citizen legitimately owns his property. The Volusia County, Florida, sheriff's department set up a "forfeiture trap" to stop motorists traveling Interstate 95 and seized an average of over $5,000 a day from motorists between 1989 and 1992--over $8 million dollars total. In three-quarters of the seizures, no criminal charges were filed. An investigation by the Orlando Sentinel revealed 90 percent of those seizure victims were black or Hispanic.[14] When confronted with this statistic, Volusia County Sheriff Bob Vogel said, "What this data tells me is that the majority of money being transported for drug activity involves blacks and Hispanics." People whose cash was seized by the deputies received scant due process of law; as the Sentinel noted, one deputy told two blacks from whom he had just confiscated $19,000: "You have the right to follow us back to the station and get a receipt." Even citizens who provided proof that their money was honestly acquired (including a lottery winner's proof of his lottery receipts) were treated like drug dealers. Volusia County officials routinely offered "settlements" to drivers whose cash they seized, offering to return a percentage of the seized cash if the drivers would sign a form promising not to sue."

Quote :

"Confiscation based on mere suspicion is the essence of contemporary asset forfeiture. In Adair County, Missouri, local police seized Sheri and Matthew Farrell's 60-acre farm based on an unsubstantiated tip from a paid drug informant who claimed that Farrell had a vast field of marijuana and used tractors outfitted with special lights to harvest it at night. Police made no effort to investigate the allegations before seizing Farrell's farm. The case against Farrell and 34 other local defendants collapsed when the informant refused to testify in court--first because he claimed he had laryngitis, and then because he claimed a total loss of memory.[19] Despite the collapse of the prosecution's case, the police refused to return Farrell's farm. They had a change of heart after the Pittsburgh Press exposed the case, although they required that the Farrells sign an agreement promising not to sue before giving back the farm. The case cost the Farrells over $5,600 in legal fees."

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:06 PM. Reason : ']

3/27/2007 12:05:31 PM

some corrupt cops != a police state

3/27/2007 12:13:51 PM

Quote :

"it's how they busted it up that I have an issue with...tax collection agents and soldiers to bust up victimless poker players???"

Were they physically harmed or treated poorly? I'd say it is a worse injustice that WRAL splattered their name all over the web than actually getting arrested by more than 1 police office.

Personally, I think idiots like this that are purposefully trying to flaunt the law are the ones needing locked up the most. What kind of moron do you have to be to think it is ok to go to a damn warehouse and play somewhat high stakes (compared to your home .25/.50 game) poker?

If you were a cop, would you feel comfortable if you and one or two of your coworkers were tasked to busting up a 41 person game of poker where guys, knowing robbery of games like this is a definitely possibility, might be packing heat? Hell, I'm actually surprised more folks weren't packing. Again, just goes to show how dumb some of these people apparently were.

3/27/2007 12:15:12 PM

I'd say I'm bothered because they were more than willing to use deadly force with military intervention to bust poker players


thats my beef

and yeah, WRAL should be ashamed

and it sounds like they trumped up the charges on the warrant so they could get some big guns in there

kinda like previous BATF raids

I hope the BATF is one day disbanded, prohibitition ended years ago, they should have been ended with it

if I was a cop???

If I was a cop I'd be ashamed to take part in such a raid knowing that 75% of my buddies play poker too

remember we're not here to serve the government, they are here to serve us

apparently the government and the citizens have forgotten that

Quote :

"Hell, I'm actually surprised more folks weren't packing"

doesn't surprise me, I'm a CCW holder and I know that I'm not allwoed to carry my weapon jsut anywhere I choose... most gun owners know better

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:21 PM. Reason : ...]

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:38 PM. Reason : C]

3/27/2007 12:20:23 PM

Quote :

""Hyde tells of Willie Jones, an African American landscaper. Simply because he paid for an airline ticket with cash in Nashville, Tennessee, the police searched Jones's luggage for drugs. They found none. When a police dog sniffed traces of drugs on the $9,600 he was carrying (a common condition for U.S. currency), the police confiscated the money. Jones could not afford to post the bond required to challenge the seizure. Instead, he sued for racial discrimination. More than two years later, the money was returned. Many other victims of forfeiture are not so fortunate. ""

He got his money back. SOUNDS LIKE A POLICE STATE TO ME. One anecdote, with a happy ending mind you, does not a police state make.

And to the married couple that lost their house? I'll agree that the law is much harsher than it needs to be, but they decided to play with fire and got burned.

Quote :

"Increasingly, the mere suspicion of a government official is sufficient proof to nullify all claims that a citizen legitimately owns his property. The Volusia County, Florida, sheriff's department set up a "forfeiture trap" to stop motorists traveling Interstate 95 and seized an average of over $5,000 a day from motorists between 1989 and 1992--over $8 million dollars total."

Boy, statistics are a fun thing aren't they? The reality most likely is, they busted a few big time folks carrying tons of drugs which brought the average up.

Quote :

"In three-quarters of the seizures, no criminal charges were filed"

More fun statistics. Was there some other course of action? What was actually seized when there were no charges filed? A joint or two? Not truly worth anyones time to go to a judge with.

Quote :

""What this data tells me is that the majority of money being transported for drug activity involves blacks and Hispanics.""

Sounds reasonable to me. OH NOES, YOU RACIST, THEY WERE PROFILED, ETC

Quote :

"Volusia County officials routinely offered "settlements" to drivers whose cash they seized, offering to return a percentage of the seized cash if the drivers would sign a form promising not to sue.""

Just sounds like shady cops to me. Doesn't matter how favorable to the citizen you write the law, people are inherently evil, and you'll get bad apple cops in any bunch.

3/27/2007 12:30:14 PM

so you're saying it's ok that they took his money and held it two years?

3/27/2007 12:39:42 PM

yeah but he's just probably optimistic that God will give him his hair back in a couple more years

3/27/2007 12:40:27 PM

IT'S JUST AN INTEREST FREE LOAN SIR


INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

amirite?

3/27/2007 12:41:24 PM

Quote :

"Personally, I think idiots like this that are purposefully trying to flaunt the law are the ones needing locked up the most. What kind of moron do you have to be to think it is ok to go to a damn warehouse and play somewhat high stakes (compared to your home .25/.50 game) poker? "

when play in home games (.25/.50), I know its illegal, isn't that purposefully trying to flaunt the law too? because they have more money to blow it makes it worse? that's bad logic.....

How many of the officers involved in that sting do you think played a game of cards for money in the last few months, or bet on the NCAA's.....

I don't have any problems with the people found with illegal weapons or drugs, or even the host being arrested, but all the others arrests are ridiculous.

3/27/2007 12:44:35 PM

devils advocate:

who knows what was told to the cops? whoever tipped them off...couldve certainly embellished the truth...exaggerated what was going on...who knows

3/27/2007 12:45:49 PM

I thought i saw a report that said officers scoped it out and then decided to call for backup?

3/27/2007 12:48:33 PM

I highly doubt they went in with that kind of force off of 1 tip that was embellished...

3/27/2007 12:49:04 PM

Quote :

"so you're saying it's ok that they took his money and held it two years?"

What do you mean by 'ok'? It's not desirable, but I also don't see evidence of a slow court system as a product of a police state either.

3/27/2007 12:50:40 PM

^^yet they didnt find any guns

so what are you proposing, that at a former game there WERE lots of drugs and guns?

^i dont think we're in police state or anything but i think its dumb as shit on your behalf to basicaly say "oh well, shit out of luck" at dude who lost that money for 2 years

course you've got me on block since you're scared of anything different than yourself so fuck you

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 12:51:00 PM

Quote :

"^i dont think we're in police state or anything but i think its dumb as shit on your behalf to basicaly say "oh well, shit out of luck" at dude who lost that money for 2 years "

basically

I'd be goddamned pissed if that was my money

which would probably lead to me not getting it back at all

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 12:53:05 PM

Quote :

"What do you mean by 'ok'? It's not desirable, but I also don't see evidence of a slow court system as a product of a police state either."

the problem lies in the fact that they took the money in the first place....even after it was clear he wasn't in the wrong.



but they found traces of drugs on his money

if you pull 2 united states paper currency units, there is a high probability that atleast one of those has some drug residue on it.

3/27/2007 12:55:32 PM

Quote :

"when play in home games (.25/.50), I know its illegal, isn't that purposefully trying to flaunt the law too? because they have more money to blow it makes it worse? that's bad logic....."

There is logic and there is reality. No judge in America is going to do more than make you pay court costs if a cop breaks up your .25/.50 game between you and 5 of your closest friends.

He will, however, might be a bit perturbed to know you were part of a 41 person high stakes operation that involved the renting of a warehouse (not yours or your buddies private home) and the illegal distribution of alcohol (he was selling for profit most likely).

3/27/2007 1:43:10 PM

^

Quote :

"Columbia, SC -- Seventy-nine-year-old Amelia "Midge" Cheseborough thought it was a joke when police raided a home poker game, seized her $20 in chips and handcuffed her. But it wasn't. Cheseborough said she lost her chips and $85 from her purse when police charged into the home. At first she thought it was a joke. "Then we realized it was real when we saw guns and masked faces," the Charleston resident said. She thinks the officer felt guilty because the handcuffs were loose, and she said she could slip out if she wanted. Cheseborough was initially among 18 people who asked for a jury trial to challenge the state's law. But last month, she decided to plead guilty and ended up paying $50 in court fees. "

first search.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:01 PM. Reason : but that's not the point.]

3/27/2007 2:01:35 PM

Quote :

"Cheseborough was initially among 18 people who asked for a jury trial to challenge the state's law."

Were these 18 people from the same raid? I can imagine some of my neighbors would be pissed and call the cops too if I flooded our street with cars such that I was a nuisance.

Was this the first time it happened, or the 10th, and the neighbors were finally fed up with it?

3/27/2007 2:04:42 PM

so is it the amount of money, the amount of people, the noise level? where is the line between a "friendly game" and an "evil gambling ring" that could bring down society as we know it?

3/27/2007 2:13:14 PM

quick question

how does anybody know anything about whether or not it was a "high stakes" game?

the WRAL article mentions NOTHING about the amount of money

3/27/2007 2:21:10 PM

Well, if you wanted, we could all be strict interpreters of the law and you'd get fined out the ass every time you go 1 mph over the speed limit, or don't come to a full stop, or don't signal to turn, ad nauseaum.

I just told you there is logic and then there is reality.

I just told you no judge in America is going to complain about a small time game with your buddies.

If you don't like the law, either don't try to find out where the line is, or work to get the law changed.


Gambling with 40 other people in a warehouse is like saying "well, I have gone 9mph over for 10 years of my life and never been ticketed, so this trooper going the speed limit probably won't give me any trouble as I try to slide by him in the other lane". Durr. People like that should be ticketed for stupidity more than anything.

It's just common sense.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM. Reason : a]

3/27/2007 2:22:17 PM

Quote :

"Well, if you wanted, we could all be strict interpreters of the law and you'd get fined out the ass every time you go 1 mph over the speed limit, or don't come to a full stop, or don't signal to turn, ad nauseaum. "

What, would they position leprechauns w/ radar guns on every 100 feet of every road?

the reason all that doesn't take place isn't because the gov wants to cut us some slack, it's because that level of enforcement is impossible.....9 times out of 10, if a cop sees me do one of the above, i will get fined out of the ass.

I would bet that if i tipped off the law to a small house game, they'd stop it.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 2:27:51 PM

Quote :

"9 times out of 10, if a cop sees me do one of the above, i will get fined out of the ass."

Wow, I hate to be a TrollTwista and say "do you have any facts to prove this", but really, you're just pulling shit out of your ass here.

Quote :

"I would bet that if i tipped off the law to a small house game, they'd stop it."

Here is how that convo would go when you called the RPD

[You] Yes, I'd like to report my neighbors playing a small game of poker next door.
[Them] Ummm, are they causing a disturbance? How many people is it?
[You] It appears to be 3 additional cars, maybe 5 people. No, they aren't being loud, I just wanted to report illegal activity
[Them] *Click*

3/27/2007 2:37:29 PM

Quote :

"drugs are bad, mmmkay?"

3/27/2007 2:38:08 PM

State409c is worried the cops might break up him and his buddies' "triatholon" training (gay orgy)

3/27/2007 2:39:36 PM

Quote :

"Wow, I hate to be a TrollTwista and say "do you have any facts to prove this", but really, you're just pulling shit out of your ass here. "

so now you're saying i'm OK to roll through stop signs, or take a sudden turn w/o signaling while a cop is behind me....????

I'd be glad to put it to the test, if you agree to pay my fines, court costs, and elevated insurance bills.

Quote :

"Here is how that convo would go when you called the RPD [You] Yes, I'd like to report my neighbors playing a small game of poker next door. [Them] Ummm, are they causing a disturbance? How many people is it? [You] It appears to be 3 additional cars, maybe 5 people. No, they aren't being loud, I just wanted to report illegal activity [Them] *Click* "

that's certainly not pulling shit out of your ass.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 2:44:52 PM

he asks for facts to prove something then turns around and makes shit up with no factual basis

3/27/2007 2:50:13 PM

Quote :

"so now you're saying i'm OK to roll through stop signs, or take a sudden turn w/o signaling while a cop is behind me....???? I'd be glad to put it to the test, if you agree to pay my fines, court costs, and elevated insurance bills."

I'm saying, depending on what mood the cop is in and the severity of your infraction, there is a good chance he won't enforce it.

Also, it's rather cute of you to take my example to the extreme to try and prove your point. Notice I said "don't come to a complete stop" and "not signal a lane change", not a 15mph roll through or sudden (gasp!) turn like you just tried to use as your example.

A home game of poker is not the extreme example. Playing high stakes, in a warehouse with 40 other people, where alcohol is being served for profit, most definitely is.

3/27/2007 2:52:21 PM

how much money did the poker game get?

you say "alcohol was being served for profit" as if you know anything about this story

3/27/2007 2:53:11 PM

Quote :

"A home game of poker is not the extreme example. Playing high stakes, in a warehouse with 40 other people, where alcohol is being served for profit, most definitely is. "

and that is our fundamental disagreement. nobody was being hurt, and now it looks like the initial allegations were even overstated.

3/27/2007 2:55:07 PM

Ok then, where is your line? 10k buy in? 200 people? Strippers bringing your drinks?

3/27/2007 2:56:44 PM

its not a line...its common sense...most rules have exceptions

its unfortunate that common sense isnt that common anymore

3/27/2007 2:59:03 PM

Quote :

"Ok then, where is your line? 10k buy in? 200 people? Strippers bringing your drinks?"

a reasonable threat to innocent people.

Like i said, the one running the game/ selling alcohol, and the ones with drugs, illegal guns should have been taken in, but people just there playing....come on.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:18 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 3:18:18 PM

Quote :

"a reasonable threat to innocent people. "

Fortunately/unfortunately, there are laws to protect us from our stupidity. It's a different, but slightly related debate.

Games like this are notorious for getting robbed at gunpoint. If I go to a casino and put a guy on tilt with my play, I have a reasonable expectation that he doesn't have any guns on him, not so at a game like this.

Even a murderer isn't a threat to anyone until he actually murders someone.

The debate degenerated into whether poker should be legalized or not, thats essentially what your argument is now. It's a different discussion, and has nothing to do with police state.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:35 PM. Reason : a]

3/27/2007 3:29:24 PM