Yup, but the person who wrote this article isn't one, and the fact that rolling Stone publishes crap like this regularly costs them a lot of credibility in my eyes. It seems other people feel similarly.

I don't care one bit about UVa , but this price is a hatchet job against the university .

12/1/2014 7:45:33 PM

You have no evidence that the allegations are false except: "these series of events didn't follow my pre-conceived notions of how this situation should have played out." It seems bold to trash a victim on that alone, but time will tell.

In reality it doesn't matter if "Jackie" is lying or embellishing or whatever because rape IS happening at pretty fucking high rates on college campuses, I think most of us agree on that at least. That is a fucking travesty and a huge indictment of our culture. What is also a crime is the way many colleges have not pursued many of these crimes nearly as actively as they should, instead sweeping it under the rug, playing mediator, obfuscating, whatever.

This "hatchet job" has been the single biggest lightening rod for jump starting a discussion on this topic, with what seems to be an actual possibility for some future positive changes (again, time will tell).

12/1/2014 8:16:33 PM

Quote :

"In reality it doesn't matter if "Jackie" is lying or embellishing or whatever because rape IS happening at pretty fucking high rates on college campuses"

Actually, it does matter. It matters a lot. It matters from a moral standpoint and from a legal standpoint.

It's not the job of the universities to pursue accusations. That's what the justice system is for. If anything they need to back the fuck off and advise students that if they feel like they've been the victim of a crime they need to go to the proper authorities. These kangaroo courts that are being set up all over the country as a result of poorly designed and hastily passed legislation are only going to exacerbate the problem.

Rape is a crime. It's not the kind of thing that should be handled by the same people who review allegations of academic misconduct.

Quote :

"You have no evidence that the allegations are false except: "these series of events didn't follow my pre-conceived notions of how this situation should have played out.""

Burden of proof is on the accuser, even in civil cases there's the preponderance of the evidence requirement. There's not one shred of evidence offered in that entire article to support that this even happened outside of one person's story. No rape kit, no police report, no corroboration from one of her friends, nothing from someone who heard that this happened, nothing.

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 8:31 PM. Reason : sdfsdf]

12/1/2014 8:28:58 PM

So because Jackie is a liar, all rape accusers are also liars???

It's seeing the tree but not the forest. Rape occurs at universities, ALOT. The stats show that, and the false accusation rate is actually pretty low ( like 5% I think). And we have no hard evidence to help Jackie precisely because Universities didn't send this straight to the police when they found out. Not to mention the culture of many of Jackie's friends, that seemingly feel rape is not that big of a deal. You can blame a scared 18 year old for not collecting the necessary evidence to make her case, or you can blame the administers that she went to first for not helping her go directly to the police.

I agree that these accusations should be treated as a crime, NOT as a student conduct issue. It was treated as student conduct before, really unfairly and shittily. That to me is where this article has pushed the conversation and that is a good thing. If the police are immediately involved, and gather the necessary evidence, people will no longer be able to accuse the Jackies of the world as being liars. We can find the truth in court ( in theory).


Note: the article was fact checked and corroborated as much as possible, in such a sensitive situation, where names where changed, the victim is unsure of pressing charges, etc, one must recognize that an entire legal case isn't going to be laid out in the media article.

12/1/2014 9:40:16 PM

Except it wasn't. The author has acknowledged that she didn't speak to the two people who Jackie could identify. She says she reached out to them, but they were hard to contact.

Presumably she could have also contacted Jackie's friends who picked her up immediately following, but either didn't or didn't include anything from them in the article.

I'm not saying all rape accusations are false, far from it, the majority are true. Somewhere in the 5-8% range seems to be the accepted stat on false accusations.

However, when you have something that is so extraordinary, and includes enough details to clearly identify the accused you had better do a little bit to offer some independent corroboration or be prepared to face libel. At the very least you need to give the people she accuses a chance to address the accusations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2014-12-01/the-uva-rape-story-gets-more-scrutiny

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120450/sabrina-rubin-erdelys-uva-gang-rape-reporting-raises-questions

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 10:08 PM. Reason : khkj]

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 10:11 PM. Reason : and another even more recent one]

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 10:11 PM. Reason : sfdsdf]

12/1/2014 9:59:46 PM

Author: "hey so, homegirl is accusing you of brutally raping her/denying her rape/being a shitty friend, anything to say?"

Frat Bro/shitty friend: "no comment" ***hires lawyer***

Like I said, time will tell if Jackie's accusations go anywhere, and that outcome will have some affect on the authors career (as it should). But again, there is WAY more to this story than JUST Jackie's accusations.

12/1/2014 10:17:31 PM

That would have been more than what she did though.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/author-of-rolling-stone-story-on-alleged-u-va-rape-didnt-talk-to-accused-perpetrators/2014/12/01/e4c19408-7999-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

The story brings up some very powerful points, and a discussion about the way sexual assault and rape are handled in universities is an important one to have, but she's going to end up hampering that discussion if it turns out that this story is untrue or full of holes.

If you don't want to have your story questioned, follow basic journalistic rules.

Also, this is bullshit and is a terrible outlook for someone who is supposed to be a seeker of truth. As an investigative journalist, this is not the kind of thing you should be saying:

Quote :

"“I could address many of [the questions] individually . . . but by dwelling on this, you’re getting sidetracked,” she wrote in an e-mail response to The Post’s inquiry. “As I’ve already told you, the gang-rape scene that leads the story is the alarming account that Jackie — a person whom I found to be credible — told to me, told her friends, and importantly, what she told the UVA administration, which chose not to act on her allegations in any way — i.e., the overarching point of the article. THAT is the story: the culture that greeted her and so many other UVA women I interviewed, who came forward with allegations, only to be met with indifference.”"

If she wanted to write an opinion piece she could have done that, but if you're going to present a story as fact and never use the words alleged or allegedly in your story there are some very minimal expectations that need to be met.

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 10:26 PM. Reason : sfdsdf]

12/1/2014 10:24:45 PM

Hmm, reading some comments on some of these articles UVa frats apparently rush in the spring, not the fall. If that's true it seems like the kind of thing that could have been easily found out.

The author has also said she was looking to write a piece about campus rape culture and so much of this story from the friends arguing about the damage to their social status to the extreme nature of the rape itself to the total lack of reaction from the administration just fits so neatly into the narrative that the author wanted.

This is starting to smell like Stephen Glass.

12/1/2014 10:57:52 PM

And what if her story can be verified and multiple people corroborate that it is true??? We really have no more evidence for one or the other......yet.

There are many cases throughout journalism, where an author has been unwilling or unable to reveal or thoroughly fact check their sources due to sensitivity. Woodward and Bernstein couldn't fully fact check deep throat , James Risen hasn't revealed his various Iran sources. Sensitive journalism exists, and personally I hope it continues.

In your quoted paragrap, the author is making the same point I've made repeatedly. Jackie's story is one thing, but the way UVA dealt with the matter is at least as much of the story, it definitely has the much broader implications. Universities across the nation have been fucking up repeatedly on this issue.

Your argument is basically coming down to the author didn't throw proper shade toward Jackie by making it clear that the accusations were " allegeded???"

[Edited on December 1, 2014 at 11:06 PM. Reason : Let the media come after the author as for Glass, either result is just as likely]

12/1/2014 10:59:42 PM

Quote :

"And what if her story can be verified and multiple people corroborate that it is true??? We really have no more evidence for one or the other......yet."

Then people should be prosecuted for rape.

It seems like a lot of the credibility of this story, super basic stuff, should be easy enough to sort out. Her excuse that the fraternity's contact information wasn't up to date is flimsy as hell. We know, based on Jackie's story, that "Drew" was both a Phi Psi brother and a lifeguard. We know he was an upper classman. Based on that it should be incredibly easy to figure out who he is and contact him.

What if it turns out no such person exists?

She says beer bottle guy was in one of her anthropology discussion groups. Again, should be pretty easy to find out a guy who was rushing that fraternity and in her same anthro class.

If she wanted to follow up on this story she easily could have, she chose not to.

12/1/2014 11:07:40 PM

http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/

Couple of good posts in his blog, I hadn't read it until I found the jezebel thing earlier today (as an aside, is there more of an echo chamber on the internet than jezebel? makes Fox news actually look fair and balanced), but he was the first to bring up points that others are now examining about the credibility of the story and the lack of basic journalistic follow through.

12/2/2014 12:02:48 AM

LOL, people want "Jackie" to press charges. If nobody folds, then there's no way to get a conviction at this point.

So, I say, sue everybody. Settle out of court and donate the money to some violence prevention organization. Or use the money to buy some vigilante justice. She might get caught and go to prison for it, but it's whatever floats her boat.

12/2/2014 1:26:57 AM

Quote :

"Igor: Her getting a dildo waved in front of her face is like me putting a white sheet over my head and going to the Ferguson protest. It's not that protestors there never seen a bed sheet before, it's that they would know that by showing up at a protest dressed like a KKK member, I am intimidating them. It's not that she hasn't seen a dildo, it's that these guys are out there intimidating the people who protest rape on campus (and they are not necessarily all "feminists" just like the Ferguson protestors are not necessarily all "black") For a person that's so adamantly vocal about fair treatment of black people, you certainly show to be pretty fucking prejudiced and narrow-minded when it comes to fairness to any other class of humans that you don't belong to and don't seem to understand. That, my black child of god, makes you an ignorant dum-dum at the best, and a hypocrite at the worst."

12/2/2014 3:34:48 AM

It doesn't matter if this article was 100% fabricated. The fact that it was printed did a LOT to help women in college.

12/2/2014 8:22:02 AM

so can i write some fan fiction about defending yourself from black people

it too might help A LOT of people

it might do some harm ..

but i can say whatever i want right

12/2/2014 8:46:46 AM

Quote :

""One of my roommates said, 'Do you want to be responsible for something that's gonna paint UVA in a bad light?'?" says Jackie, poking at a vegan burger at a restaurant on the Corner, UVA's popular retail strip. "But I said, 'UVA has flown under the radar for so long, someone has to say something about it, or else it's gonna be this system that keeps perpetuating!'?" Jackie frowns. "My friend just said, 'You have to remember where your loyalty lies.'""

This part stood out to me as really odd. I'm 23...just graduated from State in 2013. I love State. Grew up a State fan, my dad went to State, his 3 brothers all went to State...blah blah blah. I don't feel any kind of loyalty to NC State on this level though. I would consider myself a loyal fan of NC State athletics, and a "fan" of the school. I enjoyed my time there and am very grateful for it. But I wouldn't consider myself so loyal to NC State that I'd wanna protect that school's reputation over my own (or a friend's) personal safety. While I can't speak for everybody, I also never got the impression that classmates and friends had any kind of undying loyalty to university as an institution and its reputation. Especially not at 18 or 19 years old. That's not to say that some students don't feel that way. But I certainly never felt that way and I don't think many, if any, of my friends felt that way either.

Maybe that's a product of the type of student or person who attends UVa vs NC State or simply the culture at UVa compared to NC State. I dunno. But that statement is not something I can even really wrap my head around.

12/2/2014 10:19:05 AM

There are some people we will never understand. For example the following quote is from another Rolling Stone article.

Quote :

"I was a member of a fraternity that asked pledges, in order to become a brother, to: swim in a kiddie pool of vomit, urine, fecal matter, semen and rotten food products; eat omelets made of vomit; chug cups of vinegar, which in one case caused a pledge to vomit blood; drink beer poured down fellow pledges' ass cracks... among other abuses,""

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/confessions-of-an-ivy-league-frat-boy-inside-dartmouths-hazing-abuses-20120328

.....I cannot begin to wrap my head around that...or any of this rape victims friends responses to her rape.

12/2/2014 12:24:19 PM

Not surprisingly this story seems to be falling apart. The author won't answer questions about it, won't confirm if she even tried to contact the men in question, neither will her editor. People who have done part articles about serial assaults and rapes on campus are questioning the alleged rape because it is so extreme and doesn't adhere to any of the typical patterns in past fraternity or even campus rapes, etc. Now, none of this means that it can't have happened exactly as alleged, but it does call everything that has been claimed into question.

It's going to be interesting to read the upcoming g Washington post interview with Jackie. She's apparently since backed out of doing a couple of others.

12/3/2014 6:43:31 AM

Sweet, it's like the Duke Lacrosse case all over again.

12/3/2014 7:00:06 AM

WWTJD?

12/3/2014 7:20:37 AM

Another WaPo article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/12/02/rolling-stone-whiffs-in-reporting-on-alleged-rape/

12/3/2014 9:20:24 AM

Yes lets doubt the story of a gang rape because its too extreme in comparison to other gang rapes that we have heard about. But we can believe the story of a demonic black kid getting shot, running away, turning back and walking through multiple shots while trying to kill a cop with 1 good hand.

12/3/2014 9:24:28 AM

Who's doubting the story because it's too extreme?

12/3/2014 9:37:44 AM

Quote :

"People who have done part articles about serial assaults and rapes on campus are questioning the alleged rape because it is so extreme and doesn't adhere to any of the typical patterns in past fraternity or even campus rapes, etc."

12/3/2014 9:45:24 AM

And how do you know those people believe the police narrative about Michael Brown's shooting? Can you quote and bold the part of that article that says that?

12/3/2014 9:48:25 AM

I'm commenting on the people in this thread that are pushing the doubt on this case, but are no where to be found in the other thread....It's mind blowing that y'all can doubt a rape victims story so easily.

12/3/2014 9:50:44 AM

Yes, it is mind-boggling that someone would desire to see evidence of a crime before assigning guilt.

12/3/2014 9:54:34 AM

No names are named, so how is guilt being assigned?

12/3/2014 9:57:13 AM

you guys are missing the point (which isn't your fault, it was buried in the original story and its not what was picked up by others)

even if the claims are untrue, that is the story that she reported to the university and they did not investigate. that's a problem, that should be a story.

there were probably other cases for the original author to use, but they obviously picked the worst one for the coverage.

[Edited on December 3, 2014 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

12/3/2014 10:00:22 AM

Quote :

"Glass's fabrications began when an article entitled "The Hall Monitor" was published containing a fabricated quotation from an unnamed source disparaging United States Representative Pete Hoekstra for behaving in Congress like an elementary school “super hall monitor.” He started by fabricating quotations or sources, and ended by publishing wholesale fictions. He testified that “all but a handful” of the 42 articles he published in The New Republic contained fabrications "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Glass

A long-established, credible source fabricating something??? NEVER!



This RS article reminds me of the famous EXTREMELY SIMILAR article that ultimately was proved to be entirely fabricated....Mr. Glass's article about an alleged gang rape at a political conference

Quote :

"..asserting that a woman in fact emerged from the young men's room unclothed and in tears, while the perpetrators congratulated each other. The article went on: “This repellent scene was only a little beyond the norm of the conference. A wash of despair and alcohol and brutishness hung over the whole thing.” "

[Edited on December 3, 2014 at 10:30 AM. Reason : ]

12/3/2014 10:26:49 AM

Editorial from the Richmond paper raises some similar questions: http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion/our-opinion/columnists-blogs/bob-rayner/is-the-rolling-stone-story-a-fable/article_4d35495e-758c-5829-94be-cfa084c116e2.html

Quote :

"The lead villain, a student referred to as “Drew” in the Rolling Stone piece, should be easy to find. Drew met the victim at “the university pool,” where they both worked as lifeguards. He invited her to a party at his fraternity, where he led her into a pitch-black room so she could be raped repeatedly while “spectators swigged beer.” Identifying a student who was a third-year member of Phi Psi in 2012 and who worked as a lifeguard at a university pool does not require a broad search. Odds are one person fits that description. Maybe a couple. So where is “Drew”? Why does he remain anonymous? Why hasn’t he been arrested? Brought in for questioning by police? Faced charges at the university?"

So far the reaction has all been PR stunting by UVA in suspending greek life and lots of posturing.

Given the events recounted, this stuff seems pretty straightforward to investigate. Though, my question is not as to whether the the alleged victim is lying, but what the fuck are the police doing?

Stop wasting time on giving underage kids drinking tickets and go figure out a real crime.

12/3/2014 12:20:10 PM

Does BlackJesus now view everything through the lens of Ferguson? How can you even make a case for similarities? For one, with Ferguson, witnesses came forwared. Multiple witnessess, who corroborated Wilson's story.

For this rape case, as far as we know, the only person directly involved that has come forward is the one who was raped. No witnesses have come forward. How could they, without being charged with a crime?

I don't doubt her story, although the beer bottle goes a little far. If that part is true....I couldn't imagine.

12/3/2014 12:41:08 PM

If you don't doubt her rape story than my comment doesn't apply to you. I'm not viewing anything through the eyes of "ferguson". I'm pointing out how asinine it is to question a rape because its too extreme.

12/3/2014 1:07:59 PM

Quote :

"No names are named, so how is guilt being assigned?"

UVA and the fraternity in question have been publicly named, and both have taken quite a shitload of negative publicity from these accusations.

If Jackie's accusations turn out to be false, don't doubt for a minute that a Defamation suit or other legal action will be pursued. Go google Duke Lacrosse Scandal and read about the lawsuits filed by the wrongfully accused players and even some of their non-accused teammates.

Quote :

"even if the claims are untrue, that is the story that she reported to the university and they did not investigate. that's a problem, that should be a story."

Whether you agree with the policy or not, the article specifically states the choice for the university to investigate was up to Jackie. From the RS article:

Quote :

"Like many schools, UVA has taken to emphasizing that in matters of sexual assault, it caters to victim choice. "If students feel that we are forcing them into a criminal or disciplinary process that they don't want to be part of, frankly, we'd be concerned that we would get fewer reports," says associate VP for student affairs Susan Davis. Which in theory makes sense: Being forced into an unwanted choice is a sensitive point for the victims. But in practice, that utter lack of guidance can be counterproductive to a 19-year-old so traumatized as Jackie was that she was contemplating suicide. Setting aside for a moment the absurdity of a school offering to handle the investigation and adjudication of a felony sex crime – something Title IX requires, but which no university on Earth is equipped to do – the sheer menu of choices, paired with the reassurance that any choice is the right one, often has the end result of coddling the victim into doing nothing."

Is there any statistics to substantiate this claim that by letting the victim choose which course of action to pursue coddles them into doing nothing? That seems like a hell of a grandiose statement to make, and one that caters solely to the narrative the article is pushing and nothing more.

Later in the article it sounds like Jackie is still trying to decide if she wants to press criminal or civil charges, but as of yet has done neither.

I'm not saying I don't believe her story, I just don't understand her choices. She was so devastated by her experience she became depressed, suicidal, and almost failed out of school. But she didn't want the university to investigate, and she didn't want to go to the police, and she still hasn't, but she'll go put her story out in an international publication all while letting her anonymous alleged attackers walk free?

wtf?

12/3/2014 2:09:19 PM

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205

Quote :

"In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact the alleged assaulters to get their account. We are taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who was affected by the story."

12/5/2014 2:06:56 PM

1 step forward, 20 steps back. Thanks Jackie

12/5/2014 2:21:18 PM

This isn't "Jackie's" fault. RS did shitty journalism. That's all we get these days - shitty, sensationalist journalism.

12/5/2014 2:29:30 PM

did Jackie report a false rape then or what? (haven't kept up with it)

12/5/2014 2:30:49 PM

Quote :

"In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact the alleged assaulters to get their account. We are taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who was affected by the story. Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/a-note-to-our-readers-20141205#ixzz3L3ORkBVw Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook"

Poor Jackie lied about it. And I felt sorry for her. Someone go rape the bitch with a coke can.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 2:34:09 PM

yeah this falls on the rolling stone

12/5/2014 2:37:47 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/12/05/rolling-stone-retracts-uva-story/19954293/

Quote :

"Erdely's story said Drew was a lifeguard at the time of the attack in the fall of 2012. But the fraternity said it couldn't find a record of a member who worked at the aquatic center in 2012. "As far as we have determined, no member of our fraternity worked there in any capacity during this time period," its statement said. Jackie claimed that she was raped by the men at a party at the fraternity house. But the chapter said it didn't have a social event or a date function during the weekend of Sept. 28, 2012"

12/5/2014 2:37:55 PM

50/50 split. Why lie about a rape, all she did was make it easier to question future rape victims stories. Bitch set her cause back 20 years. Congrats.

12/5/2014 2:39:20 PM

while this hardly supports the story, i would like to point out that fraternities often have parties that aren't official parties and wouldn't be on the social calendar.

12/5/2014 2:41:21 PM

At least she didn't target a black fraternity. shrug

12/5/2014 2:49:14 PM

where is thegoodlife3 ?? this is after all his favorite magazine and the best investigative reporting on the planet.

oh yeah, hes busy trolling the ferguson thread and probably wont notice.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 3:04 PM. Reason : -]

12/5/2014 3:02:53 PM

If this was some type of initiation event, which according to her it sounds like it might have been, then it would have been premeditated, and there's no way in hell that the frat would have an official event where something like that took place.

12/5/2014 3:55:41 PM

and this is where those "friends" of hers need to step up...assuming she was telling the truth

12/5/2014 4:09:10 PM

So Jackie's anecdote was made up. I know my bullshit meter went off when I read the "grab its motherfucking leg" quote. I mean really?

That's a shame too because there is a real problem with universities having the responsibility for trying rape cases in-house. But now the focus will be on this one accusation and not the thousands of others that were real and subsequently swept under the rug (or not reported at all).

Good try Rolling Stone but you fucked it up big time.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 4:15 PM. Reason : Oh god it's vs. its holy fuck balls]

12/5/2014 4:14:12 PM

Get your popcorn ready for the upcoming Libel and Defamation lawsuits.

12/5/2014 4:23:20 PM

Some of y'all seem really interested in seeing that this story be false.

12/5/2014 4:25:28 PM