The Si Coupe has 2 huge fake black grilles on the front and rear bumpers. And a hood that looks like it's sitting on top of another hood. Sorry, but that's ugly. It's not CTR Aztek ugly, but it's ugly.

Quote :

"2) Honest question: Does it matter at the end of the day how many cylinders or how much displacement a car has? The base Cayman/Boxster (both now called 718) is more powerful than the S models of the previous gen. And the S now has a lot more power than the previous S. What does it matter whether it has 4 or 6? Aren't power/torque and power/torque curve the most important things? With all the turbocharging these days, cars have more power, significantly better power curves (isn't that what you want???), and also sip less fuel than their previous generations. Isn't that a win-win?"

To answer simply: Yes, it does (at least for a lot of people). For $60-80k most people want more for their money than 4 cylinders and a shitty exhaust note (and current sales may be reflecting that sentiment). I don't know where you looked up your stats, but the 718 base engine is not more powerful than the 981 S (300 hp vs 325, though I'll concede it just barely tops it's torque rating). The 718 cars are not more fuel efficient than the 981s - the EPA rating actually went down 1 mpg hwy. With all the turbocharging these days, a lot of engines have lost their personality. And the move to 500cc cylinder sizing is boring as fuck, since everyone seems to be doing it. Once you get to a certain performance point, things start to matter other than outright speed. Things including engine refinement and engine sounds. It's much easier to enjoy the sounds an engine makes on public roads rather than the car's ability to hit 60 in 3 seconds instead of 4. And for $80k a lot of people want more than an engine that sounds like it came out of a Subaru. If all Porsche clientele wanted was speed they'd all be driving Corvettes.

And that's to say nothing of the added complexity of the turbo 4 set up in lieu of a flat 6. A two stage intercooler system (air to air and water to air), turbo plumbing that wraps almost all the way around the engine and active engine mounts to attempt to quell the 4 cylinder engine's vibrations. I pity the person that owns one of these cars and attempts their own maintenance.

Sorry about the sidetrack...maybe this would be good fodder for a standalone thread?

Quote :

"4) When I saw 3,500 lbs for 488 (TKE), I was like no way that's impossible! Looked it up: 3,014 dry; 3,245 kerb."

Not sure what your source was, but Ferrari is shady as hell about their published weights. However, I do trust Car & Driver and the 488 GTB they tested for Lightning Lap 2016 weighed 3428 lb. It's contemporary peer, the 650S, was 3276 lb. And the new 720S is supposedly 3150 (with 720 hp, yowza)

[Edited on August 17, 2017 at 9:00 AM. Reason : ]

8/17/2017 8:49:14 AM

About the Si/R, I was referring to the profile/silhouette rather than the smaller details. In the new Civic family, the coupe is the only one with a nice clean profile. The hatch has that massive butt (which actually reminds me of the Aztek!), and the sedan just looks weird, like a mix between a sedan and a hatch, but more like a long hatch, a mutant.

When coming to smaller details, yes, the performance versions have a lot of garish features, and I totally dislike that front grille, and I feel you on the hood.

**************

I was thinking of the 987 S when I mentioned the 295 hp, or when I said the current base 718 is more powerful than the previous S. Thanks for the answer... and it makes sense about the engine sounds and refinement of the drive.

**************

As for the 488, I looked up the figures on the Ferrari USA site: http://auto.ferrari.com/en_US/sports-cars-models/car-range/ferrari-488-gtb/

Yes, the 650/675 were renowned for being light, and the lower end of the weight range (3150 - 3400) I gave for the lightest McLarens, Ferraris, and Lambos, was for the 720S

Quote :

"Sorry about the sidetrack...maybe this would be good fodder for a standalone thread?"

Sounds good! Cheers mate!

8/17/2017 3:25:04 PM

Ahh, yeah it is the "R" that's Aztec-ugly.

Engine layout isn't the most important thing...but flat/inline sixes are my favorite, and the smoothest layout (along with V12s).

I think with Porsche, you aren't buying dyno charts and lap times, etc. If numbers per dollar is driving the decision, you buy a Corvette, pretty much end of story (or MAYBE one of the super-duper Camaros/Mustangs).

Like, I wouldn't buy a 996, because the headlights are wrong. Fine for a Cayman (though not my preference), but not a 911.

8/17/2017 10:22:29 PM

Quote :

"If all Porsche clientele wanted was speed they'd all be driving Corvettes."

Come join the dark side...

8/18/2017 8:25:10 AM

I have been to the dark side. I would return. I have an appreciation for both types of machines.

8/18/2017 8:31:48 AM

Quote :

"I said >10lbs/hp is an appliance, <10lbs/hp is performance. you can have luxury appliance (bmw, jaguar, infiniti) or you can have econo appliance (honda, nissan, toyota), you can have luxury performance too. I fail to see how these classifications aren't fairly obvious. you could argue the delineation points a bit, but the margin for error is fairly slim with only really rare cars like a golf R or civic type R (special low volume trim levels of otherwise low market cars) dancing in the gray areas."

My rental car this weekend is a 370hp/395ft-lb Dodge Charger, a mass produced trim, and I can tell you it definitely feels like "appliance car performance" when I stomp on the pedal at any speed, and also when I loosen the rear end up at will.

I think you need to add yet another qualification to your original dumb argument, and add yet another category for a "Muscle Appliance Car," cause this thing ain't luxury or econo, but it definitely hauls ass.

8/20/2017 11:08:22 PM

370hp and 4k lbs.. you can kid yourself that that's meaningful performance improvement over an appliance, but it's really not. you're talking about a car that's not quite the performance levels of a 20 year old 5 series.

it's ok man, we get it. you're satisfied by slow cars that are easy to deal with on the daily. you don't have to puff them up into more than they really are. no one's here trying to emasculate you for enjoying something that's not super focused. let it go.

[Edited on August 21, 2017 at 9:18 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2017 9:18:01 PM

Quote :

"you're talking about a car that's not quite the performance levels of a 20 year old 5 series."

You misspelled M5, which was produced in very limited numbers. A much more commonly found 5 series would be the 528i which takes like 8 seconds 0-60.

0-60 in 5 seconds is not slow, and is a meaningful substantial performance improvement over the 528i cited above. It's why someone buys a Golf R (5.2s) instead of a plain Golf (7.3s), and even then, you claim the Golf R is in the grey area at 5.2s, while calling my 4.8s 335i and 5.1s Charger slow and appliances. It's just a dumb argument. The "grey area" is a lot wider than you're depicting, and it's not even really a grey area, but an additional category.

Are my Charger and 335i "Not super focused"? Obviously. Are they an appliance? Obviously not.

Quote :

"An appliance car is generally a car that's only made for one thing: to get you from A to B as cheaply as possible and without any trouble. In other words to get the job done. Often, they are compared to appliances such as washing machines and microwaves. More than often you have problems finding them in the lot after your Wal-Mart adventures because of their total lack of style and presence. "

Here, I'll make the new categories for you:

1) Super focused performance
2) Fun to drive
3) Appliance

8/21/2017 10:37:43 PM

who said an appliance can't be fun to drive?

[Edited on August 22, 2017 at 8:37 AM. Reason : also, 0-60 is hardly a useful measure of performance for anything besides stop light racing]

8/22/2017 8:32:55 AM

Quote :

"who said an appliance can't be fun to drive?"

The definition of an appliance car.

Quote :

"0-60 is hardly a useful measure of performance for anything besides stop light racing"

It's a little more accessible than Nurburgring lap times. It's also cited on manufacturer press releases and all the magazine/blog/etc articles, and is used to compare vehicles across the industry, so it's obviously way more important than you're giving it credit for.

8/22/2017 10:48:44 AM

1/4 mile is much more useful than 0-60 these days. 0-60 is still a powerful marketing tool, though.

Nurburgring is not a great yardstick, except for hypercars. It's kind of the opposite problem as comparing autocross lap times.

C&D Lightning Lap is my favorite yardstick of most performance-oriented cars.

[Edited on August 22, 2017 at 9:03 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2017 9:02:37 PM

0-60 time modeling has messed up some really good cars by manufacturers messing with the gears to hit 60 right when you bounce off the limiter because of .3 second gear change making the number look bad.

Not as big of a point since nothing comes with a fucking manual anymore.
Reminded by how much I love manuals after I had to push start the kia after grabbing groceries because it's
6 year old battery finally bit the dust (with a trunk full of groceries)

I mean I love them every day but just when I start to think hmm a dsg wouldn't be terrible...

Nope..

I still have a hard time shaking the thought of a gen5 viper... power, weight, and simplicity all are right in the sweet spot.

Back to the Supra.... I will simply say this, if a track pack mustang gt is faster, cheaper, and seating more while also being more reliable which would be my guess right now with this thing being based on a z4 chassis I will consider it a flop on launch.

[Edited on August 23, 2017 at 4:53 AM. Reason : Autocorrect correcting.]

8/23/2017 4:51:35 AM

http://jalopnik.com/the-new-bmw-z4-is-the-most-promising-car-from-bmw-since-1798053666

Quote :

"The Munich grapevine suggests three different versions of the Z4. The base s20i will likely be powered by the brand’s 2.0-liter turbo inline-four presently rated at 180 horsepower and 200 lb-ft of torque in the BMW 320i. The s30i features the same engine in 248 hp, 258 lb-ft guise, with the Z4 M40i using a version of the 320 hp, 340 lb-ft straight-six from the 340i. Not yet confirmed is a Competition Pack, which would kick up the 3.0-liter’s output by some 40 horses and 30 lb-ft. Although the base model will come with a six-speed manual gearbox, higher-end versions will relay torque via an eight-speed ZF auto box.?"

8/23/2017 7:01:19 AM

New Supra info!

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/dave-from-toyota-what-we-learned-in-breck-about-the-200.1003052/

Quote :

"Release date early 2019; should have north of 400hp, expect a manual option. Dave would not comment on powertrain other than to indicate it was a joint build with BMW and it will NOT be using BMW's ubiquitous 3.0 twin turbo inline 6. He said it may have a 3.5 v6 turbo and there may be a hybrid variant. "

Supposedly, straight from the mouth (paraphrased) of someone who works in product development at Toyota!

400+ hp sounds much better than ~350 hp!

Hopefully we will get more concrete details in October at the Tokyo Auto Show when a concept is revealed... or like BMW, they might reveal the car but not reveal any technical info.

8/23/2017 7:34:38 AM

Ugh.

On one hand I don't want the engine to be sourced from BMW.

On the other hand I don't want it to be another lame ass V6.

Such a dilemma, lol.

8/23/2017 9:23:27 AM

↑ This.

If they just used the block of the bimmer and their own everything else hat would be a pro.


If this car doesn't have an inline 6 that will prove how little Toyota is in touch with car culture.

Toyota "Yes, I'm a marathon runner, hey, could I borrow that gun real quick?" (BLAM)

Spectator "why the fuck would you shoot yourself in the foot before a marathon?"

8/30/2017 1:25:13 PM

whatever picture you were trying to paint didnt come out real good bruh

8/30/2017 3:20:54 PM

Quote :

"how little Toyota is in touch with car culture. "

Maybe.

Maybe it's that we're in the twilight years. Everyfuckingthing being mandated and making the vehicle weights ridiculous...pedestrian impact standards ruining the overall design--making everything gigantic, blocky-looking, and heavy...black boxes and ambulance-chasing lawyers snitching and suing, things becoming so regulated and integrated that modding is much tougher than before...and you almost can't buy a manual transmission anymore...

and then the biggie: automation soon to slash the demand for driver satisfaction in the immediate term, with other cascading effects possible from there (will it be more and more prohibitive to even drive your own car at some point, from a regulation and/or liability standpoint? Will body repair shops become rare and expensive once cars don't get banged up nearly as much? Down the road, what about infrastructure for gasoline and general repair of "conventional" ICE cars?)

I think there was probably a significant amount of long-term outlook with BMW's decision to stop building the Ultimate Driving Machine and start focusing on technology and efficiency--not purely motivation to go more mass-market in search of near-term sales. Probably the same thing, to some extent, with Porsche becoming a full-spectrum manufacturer, and even Ferrari shifting towards the same.

Toyota 100% bowed out of the non-appliance game 15-20 years ago. I'm not sure why they'd make any serious effort at any significant re-entry to the enthusiast markets now, when it's 100x harder to build a decent sports car, their corporate knowledge and culture of that is probably mostly gone, and soon, few people will want to drive themselves anyway, and those who do probably won't be primed to look towards the most boring car company on Earth, hahaha.

[Edited on August 30, 2017 at 4:53 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2017 4:48:36 PM

Quote :

"On the other hand I don't want it to be another lame ass V6"

I thought this when the GTR came out with a TT V6

Now I don't mind so much Hello 1000+ on stock block!

8/31/2017 12:39:29 PM

Quote :

"It'll be called the Supra, and it'll be "by Gazoo" – straight from the horse's mouth. The next generation Toyota Supra will be badged and sold as a Gazoo Racing model when it goes on sale at the end of 2019. That’s according to Shigeki Tomoyama, president of Gazoo Racing. Speaking with Motor1.com at a Tokyo motor show preview event, Tomoya said "the Supra will be by Gazoo." Gazoo is Toyota’s performance wing that manages both the Japanese car maker’s motorsport activity – including the World Rally Championship and World Endurance Championship – and also its most potent road cars. So far, the production model folio has been limited to the £26,000 ($34,000) Toyota Yaris GRMN (Gazoo Racing tuned by Meisters of the Nürburgring [No, really]), but that looks set to change with a series of models that highlight the brand’s sporting intent."

Other choice quotes from him:

Quote :

""The Supra will be a pure sports car," said Tomoya."

Quote :

""I can’t tell you anything more except it’s going to be really cool!" From a man who drives to work in a carbon-clad ‘97 Supra with 600 hp (447 kW), we’re happy to take his word for it. "

10/24/2017 2:24:07 PM

At this point, it seems all but certain to be crap. Much like the Gen2 NSX.

10/26/2017 9:35:18 AM

In the past alleged scans turned out to be fakes, so take it with a grain of salt!

But it seems like we will finally get to see it in March in Geneva.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/mkv-toyota-supra-dimensions-specs-leaked-in-best-car-magazine.737

Quote :

"MKV Wheelbase (97.2 in) Length (172.4 in) Width (73 in) Height (50.8 in) Curb weight (3,284 lb) Engine: 3.0L turbo inline-six with 335 hp and 332 lb-ft, plus 37 lb-ft overboot. Transmission: 8 speed auto transmission. Tires: 225/50/17 front, 255/45/17 rear Compare to the old model: MKIV Wheelbase (100.4 in) Length (177.8 in) Width (71.3 in) Height (49.8 in) Curb weight (3,329 lb) (non-turbo) (3,461 lb) (turbo) Differences Wheelbase (-3.2 in) Length (-5.4 in) Width (+1.7 in) Height (+1 in) Curb weight (-177 lb)"

2/12/2018 5:05:55 PM

2 pedals only, eh?

2/12/2018 5:41:41 PM

smells like BS

2/12/2018 6:26:54 PM

https://www.facebook.com/toyota/posts/10156278548574201

Quote :

"THE LEGEND RETURNS At the 2018 Geneva Motor Show, a modern racing concept signals Toyota’s commitment to bring back to market its most iconic sports car. Get the full scoop on March 6th at 3:45 a.m. EST"

2/13/2018 6:10:31 AM

Who thinks the production car unveil at Geneva will also include productions curb weight and engine power? I'm guessing no

3/1/2018 10:18:27 AM

^ LOL actually it won't even be the production car that will be unveiled! It will either be a "racing concept", and whether that means a concept to preview the production model, or a racing/motorsports version of the Supra, no one knows.

3/1/2018 12:56:22 PM

Is Toyota trying to upstage Honda's dreadful roll out of the NSX? This is fucking sad.

Also on one hand Tada says the car won't have a manual transmission, meanwhile also saying that the car is about having fun.

3/7/2018 4:00:23 PM

Nobody expects them to not fuck this up, right? At a minimum, they'll fuck up the styling and the weight. I'll be shocked if they don't fuck those up (it's not totally their fault; manufactures are almost bound by regulation to make fat, ugly cars nowadays). It might have plenty of power; we'll see about transmission choices and price.

[Edited on March 11, 2018 at 3:39 PM. Reason : ]

3/11/2018 3:37:19 PM

toyota thinks 200hp is adequate in their only sports car and even fucked up the 4runner. yeah, this isn't anything to worry about. I bet it looks REAL similar to the 500hp 10spd auto lexus

3/12/2018 11:18:53 AM

This is the company that developed and sold a dealer installed supercharger for the Tacoma and Scion fucking tC but refuses to offer one for it's only sports car built in the last 15 years.

Try to make sense out of that one.

3/12/2018 3:25:08 PM

Mazda makes a small, light, nimble sports car. Porsche makes (borderline) them as well. Come to think of it, so does Toyota(/Subaru), but for some reason they want their light/nimble, ACTUAL sports car to be slow, and they want their luxury/overpriced/overweight "sports car" to be really expensive and not adequate as a "sports car". The why, that I don't understand.

3/13/2018 10:31:55 PM

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/inside-the-toyota-supra-s-development-with-tetsuya-tada-117577.html

Quote :

"“We wish that we could have brought back a new Supra much earlier,” Tetsuya Tada said. “We wish to apologise to [supporters] that it took so long. It's been 15 long years, [I am] very sorry for that.” "

Sure...! World's biggest car company (or one of the), and couldn't revive it while Nissan and Honda revived theirs, and Mazda even made the RX-8. Where was all the money from Camrys and Corollas going?

Quote :

"An enthusiast to his core, Tada said Toyota did not want to compromise and offer a reworked 86 or Lexus coupe with Supra badges. It had to be done the right way, which meant working with another marque to ensure the correct ingredients were in place."

Wait, isn't it true that there won't be a manual? Where is the enthusiast there? :faceplam:

BTW, I just realized that it will be a two-seater only, and has a shorter wheelbase than that of the 86. What do the enthusiasts here say about that?

P.S. Have you guys seen this video which shows how the GTE spec racing Supra would look without the racing paint-job? (official video by Toyota)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfeUvRm8f6k

[Edited on March 14, 2018 at 4:16 AM. Reason : ]

3/14/2018 4:15:40 AM

Seems clear to me that he's full of shit. A reworked 86 with a 6 cylinder engine could easily have become a Supra. Nevermind that something like that isn't even a precedent, and is how the Supra was created in the first place!

3/14/2018 9:31:05 AM

yeah, considering that Tada:

1) says he did not want to compromise on the enthusiast factor but won't offer a manual (if true)
2) thinks that adding forced induction tot he 86 would have meant rebuilding the whole car from scratch

leads me to believe he is suffering from dementia

3/14/2018 4:37:54 PM

Tada is Japanese trump

3/16/2018 6:31:57 PM

^ yup, and confirmed yet again why he is trump:

Toyota Chief Engineer: New Supra Doesn't Need A Manual Gearbox

Quote :

"He argued that because of the high level of torque produced by the engine, manually shifting gears would “feel worse,” hence why he strongly believes a stick shift is not necessary. While Tada referred to the Supra – which has been in development since 2015 - as being a dual-clutch-only “pure sports car,” its BMW Z4 counterpart is expected to keep the manual gearbox alive to the delight of purists."

wat

4/2/2018 4:13:37 PM

^^^ car in YT video reminds me a bit of the Panoz

Shorter wheel base than GT86 will not be a good thing in this case...

4/3/2018 9:06:39 AM

^^ridiculous. who the fuck develops an engine for a sports car that isn't well suited to shifting gears? the fuck? They going off script here and dropping in BMW's diesel engine?

4/3/2018 9:09:03 AM

Boooooooost

4/3/2018 11:29:22 AM

haha, toyota builds one hell of an appliance, but they could fuck up an anvil when it comes to having fun.

4/4/2018 12:01:43 AM

The true legacy of the original Supra is that it was reliable and fun. So what we are going to do is put in a low revving bmw engine and kill the legacy for ever. No fun, not reliable... then we won’t have to hear about the gd mkiv Supra anymore.

4/4/2018 6:01:50 AM

the supra wasn't even a good sports car, it was a good platform for drag racing. the only enduring japanese sports cars of the 90s are the FD rx7, the evo, the gt-r, the silvia and the gc8 wrx. 4 of those 5 werent in america.

honorable mention to the 300zx, but it was a shitty sports car too

4/6/2018 11:59:43 AM

Wait you mark off the Supra but keep the skyline?

It had a good weight distribution and if you reference the car mags also say it pulls the most gs on the skid pad, even more then the c4 vette and early viper iirc

4/6/2018 6:51:18 PM

Supra top times both races
https://youtu.be/FFEi-0Rx6J0?t=3m16s
https://youtu.be/FFEi-0Rx6J0?t=11m51s

4/6/2018 10:47:43 PM

^^ yeah, those cars won races

4/8/2018 11:07:59 PM

The MKIV Supra was pretty successful in JGTC racing, though IIRC for most of it's career in that series it used a 4 cylinder engine.

4/10/2018 9:59:55 AM

2018 Toyota Supra: Everything We Know
https://www.motor1.com/news/93863/2018-toyota-supra-everything-we-know

P.S. Confirmed debut at the NAIAS in January.

10/10/2018 12:45:45 PM

Debut is here. Starts at about $51k. No manual transmission, 335 hp. Styling is about what we expected-neither bad nor exciting. Weight unknown, but who cares, really? Not anyone who is gonna buy this thing.

It would be great if it was priced in the 30s, but I really don’t know why anyone would buy this thing. Oh well, at least Toyota is trying again for the first time in a generation. Sort of.

Then again, not that it matters. If they announced plans for an appealing sports car today, the autonomous cars would be here by the time they actually built it.

At least we have...Chevrolet?

(and Porsche)

1/14/2019 11:36:36 AM

should have been a 2+2

1/14/2019 1:04:21 PM