Quote :

"The plant angle is going to be a very serious deal if it turns out to be true and these email exchanges had anything to do with any FISA warrants."

what evidence have you seen for you to think she was a plant?

[Edited on July 12, 2017 at 4:02 PM. Reason : .]

7/12/2017 4:01:59 PM

Sounds like a Sean Hannity talking point

7/12/2017 4:09:00 PM

4chan or r/TheDonald seems more likely.

Cernovich's hot take is similar though. It was an Obama plant to justify tapping Trumps phones.

7/12/2017 4:10:20 PM

r/the_donald is all over the plant story, and their evidence is a joke and out of context

for example they are posting screenshots of her facebook that show photos from an anti-trump rally that she posted, except they are ignoring her comments where she is making fun of the people

but eleusis is exactly the kind if neckbeard that buys it

edit: i mean for fucks sake, she posted an alt-right article trying to link funding for women's marches to hamas

[Edited on July 12, 2017 at 4:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/12/2017 4:13:44 PM

WikiLeaks also posted a pic of her behind Obama's Russian ambassador testifying in Congress inferring he invited her.

(Of course the real story was she met a GOP Congressman the night before for some movie preview and then went to the hearing the next day as a member of public)

7/12/2017 4:17:46 PM

Evidence I've seen has been:

- facebook photos taken at two Trump protests (not of her protesting, just the protest themselves)
- photo of someone that looks like her behind Obama’s Ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul, at a Foreign Affairs Committee
- something about her passport not having clearance to travel to the US in June

This is from info wars so... yeah. Article ends with a video titled "Why the Left Hates America" so I'm struggling to see how anyone can take this seriously... But here we are.

Also the idea that Democrats would plant her in June of last year, then not spill the beans in an October surprise but instead will rely on the intelligence community and reporters to dig her up seems... suspect to say the least.

7/12/2017 4:18:56 PM

A plant doesn't seem all that far-fetched when you believe the Clintons routinely have people murdered.

7/12/2017 4:22:47 PM

Trump-Russia investigators probe Jared Kushner-run digital operation
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article160803619.html

Quote :

"WASHINGTON Investigators at the House and Senate Intelligence committees and the Justice Department are examining whether the Trump campaign’s digital operation – overseen by Jared Kushner – helped guide Russia’s sophisticated voter targeting and fake news attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2016. Congressional and Justice Department investigators are focusing on whether Trump’s campaign pointed Russian cyber operatives to certain voting jurisdictions in key states – areas where Trump’s digital team and Republican operatives were spotting unexpected weakness in voter support for Hillary Clinton, according to several people familiar with the parallel inquiries. Also under scrutiny is the question of whether Trump associates or campaign aides had any role in assisting the Russians in publicly releasing thousands of emails, hacked from the accounts of top Democrats, at turning points in the presidential race, mainly through the London-based transparency web site WikiLeaks."

7/12/2017 4:40:34 PM

Assange tweeted that Jr called him on the phone asking for guidance on the NYT email, and it was assange that counsled him to release the emails.

Also supposedly trump and his team vetted jrs tweet.

7/12/2017 4:44:16 PM

I haven't seen any evidence to support my assumption, but I feel like sophisticated voter targeting has the Mercers' name all over it.

7/12/2017 5:10:47 PM

Quote :

"It absolutely makes a difference. One can be considered an act of war by a nation state which has the means to wage said war. Another is an act of domestic, internal posturing. Could that lead to civil war? I guess. But the difference absolutely matters. And if they could easily set up a surrogate firm, why didn't they?"

I'm talking about the difference in the results. The results are exactly the same. All of the differences you are talking about are differences in the way people react to the action which is my point. They didn't setup a firm because they didn't do anything that was so egregious or out of the norm.

Quote :

"Because Russia seeks to gain resources and power at the expense of the United States. Geopolitics 101. "

This is only true if you subscribe to the idea that all of the Earth's resources belong to the United States. Russia isn't seeking anything on U.S. territory.

Quote :

"e're at war every single day with every nation that is not aligned with us. It's a zero sum game. It doesn't have to be, from an idealistic and resource standpoint, but until human psychology and behavior evolves, it will remain a zero sum game. "

That is a sociopathic world view

Quote :

"He sought to eliminate sanctions that were put in place to punish them for invading and annexing a sovereign nation (one with which they signed agreements to guarantee said sovereignty - Budapest Memorandum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)). He sought to eliminate sanctions and punishments that were put in place to punish them for their actions to destabilize Europe and The United States via intelligence operations aimed at disrupting electoral processes, specifically their interference with ours this past year. Note - interfering with an election is not the same as hacking an election, though part of their interference did involve hacking in general."

Sanctions actually sanction yourself and Russia. The election sanctions were 100% political. Again, this Russia thing is being treated with urgency mainly because Democrats are mad they lost. This type of "interference" is normal. We do it all the time.

Quote :

" They did so by releasing information that damaged one candidate specifically"

Russian nationals

Quote :

" they initiated a massive disinformation and false news campaign which prevented many people from determining the truth of both candidates. "

Fake news would have existed with or without Russia. To say Russia initiated the concept of fake stuff on the internet is absurd. Anyone can post fake memes on facebook.

Quote :

"In our country, if enough people from group two demand something, group one will succumb in order to stay in power. Sometimes it takes little pressure to do the right thing, as is the case with the Pearl Harbor attack leading to an almost immediate declaration of war. Sometimes it takes a lot of pressure to do the right thing, as is the case with the Nixon Watergate scandal which took document leaks, brave reporting and public opinion to finally take down one of the worst presidents we've ever had. From a larger picture, people in group one work with their counterparts in other nations to do everything they can to a) enrich their country and firm up their security and b) keep world peace (because war is absolutely devastating to the global economy, among other reasons). To do this, they maintain public stances that many times conflict with their actual, hidden actions. This is why intelligence is operated in the manner it is. It's a way for nations to advance their agendas while gaining as much information about the motives and intentions of their rivals in order to do so for the greatest benefit with the lowest cost. All major powers realize this which is why you'll often hear things like "gentleman's agreement among spies.""

You are correct. That is how it has worked but people are increasingly done with that. This is why a lot of Trump supporters chose him and why Hillary's public/private stance statement was so true, so telling, and so detrimental to her earning the nomination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eIRHrGlMe4

7/12/2017 5:13:23 PM

Remember the entirety of the alt-right 4chan r/the_donald crowd believed Podesta was running a child sex ring out of a pizza shop based on some random 4channer positing that "eating pizza" was code for "fucking kids". So by that standard, the "evidence" for Don Jr. being duped by a plant is practically a slam dunk!

[Edited on July 12, 2017 at 5:20 PM. Reason : .]

7/12/2017 5:17:16 PM

Quote :

"I'm talking about the difference in the results. The results are exactly the same."

It doesn't matter what the results are. If you attempt to rob a bank and fail, you are still committing a crime and will be arrested, charged and sentenced.

Quote :

"They didn't setup a firm because they didn't do anything that was so egregious or out of the norm."

Except, they did, hence the reason it's plastered all of the news now as opposed to any of the previous, similar shit that's gone down over the past 60 years.

Quote :

"This is only true if you subscribe to the idea that all of the Earth's resources belong to the United States. Russia isn't seeking anything on U.S. territory. "

No, this is true because the earth itself contains a finite amount of resources over which all nation states are competing. So, any nation that gains an advantage by default causes disadvantage for others.

Quote :

"That is a sociopathic world view"

Sociopath: A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Does not compute.

Quote :

"Sanctions actually sanction yourself and Russia. The election sanctions were 100% political. Again, this Russia thing is being treated with urgency mainly because Democrats are mad they lost. This type of "interference" is normal. We do it all the time. "

I'm almost convinced you're either JCE or modelling yourself off of his mold, but I'll take one last chance here.

Politics: The activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

This is not treated with urgency because Democrats are mad they lost. It is treated with urgency because it crossed a serious line with respect to international norms in intelligence operations and warfare. And it is irrelevant as to whether we do it all of the time or not. As I explained earlier, since you cannot know with 100% certainty the motives and intentions of any rival power, you must act accordingly to ensure your security to the best of your ability. So whether we do it in Ghana or South Africa or anywhere else is irrelevant. If you are loyal to this country and its values, then you understand why this Russian shit is such a big deal. There are only two other options if not:

1) You believe in this fairy tale about everyone playing nice and getting along (one of the PRIMARY reasons conservatives have so many problems with liberals)

2) You are loyal to your political party as opposed to this country.

Until humans evolve their psychology and behavior, this is how we as organisms will continue to operate. And I intend on keeping America at the top of the food chain with as little collateral damage as possible.

Quote :

"Russian nationals"

Yes, Russian nationals employed by the Russian government and intelligence services.

Quote :

"Fake news would have existed with or without Russia. To say Russia initiated the concept of fake stuff on the internet is absurd. Anyone can post fake memes on facebook."

See my previous points. The fake news that occurred here was a much more aggressive, and in many ways new, type. Go back and read some of the technical analysis of what happened, particularly with respect to bots, Reddit and Twitter.

Quote :

"You are correct. That is how it has worked but people are increasingly done with that. This is why a lot of Trump supporters chose him and why Hillary's public/private stance statement was so true, so telling, and so detrimental to her earning the nomination. "

No, they aren't. I challenge you to show any meaningful, or statistically significant number that indicates an impactful portion of the world population is 1) increasingly done with it AND 2) doing something about it. Congress has over a a 95% re-election rate (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_kyle_kondik/incumbent_reelection_rates_higher_than_average_in_2016). No one is "increasingly done with this." The portion that is simply is increasingly vocal about it. Trump's supporters, by and large, chose him because he told them what they wanted to hear:

"We're kicking out the immigrants."
"Women are shit."
"Fuck poor people (even most of you aren't rich)."
"Fuck the world, we can take care of ourselves (even though that lead to WW1 and WW2, the two most devastating conflicts in world history)."
"I'm an outsider (even though I'm not)."

This is the exact same thing conservatives have spewed to their base for decades now. Nothing's changed, nothing is different.

[Edited on July 12, 2017 at 6:44 PM. Reason : A]

7/12/2017 6:40:32 PM

You can ignore the troll

7/12/2017 7:26:43 PM

The only reason I have to believe the plant angle is that the Trump team approved of releasing the emails. this is yet another nothingburger incident that the Trump team has promoted publicity to, so you can expect it to blow up in the Democrat's faces somehow in a couple of weeks. a plant would be an obvious way for that to happen, and an email littered with NSA trigger phrases to invoke a FISA warrant would be a bombshell discovery.

you have to ask the questions of how the NYT got the email, and why now, and how Jr was able to babble on for two days expounding his story without the NYT publishing the email to discredit him. It seems plausible that Jr was actually the source to the NYT in the first place and drew attention to the email as bait.

7/12/2017 8:09:27 PM

adorable

7/12/2017 8:26:29 PM

Quote :

" (Of course the real story was she met a GOP Congressman the night before for some movie preview and then went to the hearing the next day as a member of public)"

She was there at the invitation of Rorhabacher who everyone knows is a pro-Russian stooge

Democrats are now asking Sessions why the money laundering case was suddenly dropped

7/12/2017 9:21:26 PM

Lol it's just came to post that apparently Rorhabacher used that "nothing burger" term today. How embarrassing to have a US rep, or really anyone over the age of 19, say that out loud

7/12/2017 9:26:48 PM

He is in the pocket of Russian lobbyists and has been for years

7/12/2017 9:55:04 PM

Quote :

"The only reason I have to believe the plant angle is that the Trump team approved of releasing the emails. "

This can't be real life. No way I can believe someone legitimately believes the WH take on this. I just can't.

It's so patently obvious (and confirmed) that the NYT contacted Junior for comment and told him they had the emails for the story. Then he released them to claim the high ground. How on earth does any reasonably intelligent person get cucked this hard????

7/12/2017 9:55:13 PM

Boy it's a good thing the NYT contacted Jr. first, should have just posted the story so the WH couldn't control the story.

7/12/2017 10:27:18 PM

^^
Cult logic

Jr already admitted the way he handled the email was a mistake. Kushner is just as culpable if not more, but he’s kept his mouth shut and hasn’t faced as much scrutiny publicly.

the whitehouse has already pivoted to the narrative that “we colluded but so what?”

Will Trump supporters realize trump has been lying the past year to them and the country about his communications with Russia? What did he even ask Putin in their meeting, when trump already knew Putin was working him?

Have trump supporters forgotten that just a few weeks ago Putin was saying he would be shooting down American jets? How is it okay for trump to say it’s okay to collude with that same guy?

7/12/2017 11:34:26 PM

Trevor Noah's take on if this meeting was setup by Democrats (which is being pushed by Hannity):

https://youtu.be/TPWtRH_rC54?t=1m6s

7/13/2017 8:25:41 AM

Apparently US intelligence agencies captured some communications of russian officials discussing trump associates but at the time without context they weren't on the radar

Russian Officials Overheard Discussing Trump Associates Before Campaign Began
It isn’t clear whether Mr. Trump’s associates had any connection to his presidential aspirations
https://www.wsj.com/article_email/russian-officials-overheard-discussing-trump-associates-before-campaign-began-1499890354-lMyQjAxMTI3MjE5MjExMzI0Wj/

Quote :

"WASHINGTON—Investigators are re-examining conversations detected by U.S. intelligence agencies in spring 2015 that captured Russian government officials discussing associates of Donald Trump, according to current and former U.S. officials, a move prompted by revelations that the president’s eldest son met with a Russian lawyer last year. In some cases, the Russians in the overheard conversations talked about meetings held outside the U.S. involving Russian government officials and Trump business associates or advisers, these people said."

Quote :

"In 2015, intelligence agencies weren’t sure what to make of the surveillance reports, which they viewed as vague and inconclusive, the current and former officials said. But the volume of the mentions of Trump associates by the Russians did have officials asking each other, “What’s going on?” one former official said. A lawyer for Mr. Trump didn’t respond to a request for comment on the 2015 conversations. Now, in light of the release of emails Tuesday by the president’s eldest son, describing a 2016 meeting with a Russian lawyer, investigators are going back to those early reports. They are seeking new leads as they probe whether the Trump campaign colluded in what several U.S. intelligence agencies say was a Russian government-sponsored effort to meddle in the election to benefit Mr. Trump. "

7/13/2017 9:54:55 AM

https://twitter.com/johnson_carrie/status/885493591161921538

Folks, nothing to see here. Laws don't apply to the fucking Attorney General of the United States so why should we have any confidence in anything the DoJ does?

7/13/2017 10:01:56 AM

^old news. Meetings with foreign diplomats while serving as a government official do not have to be listed on the form.

7/13/2017 10:11:19 AM

^half correct - you have to report it if the meeting isn't official business tied to your position.

Just so you know how thorough these are supposed to be - if you're a diplomat at the embassy in Ukraine and you go on a date with a Ukrainian woman, you have to report that. If you have dinner with a Ukrainian man to discuss your favorite movies, you have to report that. Etc. If a Ukrainian enters the embassy to meet with you and volunteers information, you have to report that.

If you're the defense attache and the Ukrainian defense attache meets with you to discuss defense shit, you don't have to report that, although you'd be better off doing so.

If you're a scientist and attend a science conference in another country, you have to report you were there but you do not have to report the fact that you shook hands with 50 foreign nationals or had discussions about science with 50 foreign nationals. You'd be smart to at least keep a copy of the list of attendees, though.

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM. Reason : a]

7/13/2017 10:25:30 AM

He had verifiable contact with foreign agents at campaign events (it's quite a stretch to call that official Senate duties). He also lied about it at his confirmation hearing.

But eleusis is correct about not having to list all his official Senate meetings. It's just this is a clear pattern across many different Trump people.

7/13/2017 11:06:10 AM

Yep, that's what I was going to get at. He was a member of the Trump campaign when acting at the events, not a US senator. 100% should have been on SF86.

Part of the reason for the difference is as a Senator he already has a security clearance, if I'm not mistaken.

In particular, even with the guidelines I mentioned above, there are certain circumstances where you are still strongly asked to include information (maybe even required, not sure to that level) - contacts with foreign nationals from a rival/hostile nation.

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 11:18 AM. Reason : a]

7/13/2017 11:14:03 AM

Quote :

"It's so patently obvious (and confirmed) that the NYT contacted Junior for comment and told him they had the emails for the story."

do people seriously believe news runs that slowly?

7/13/2017 12:39:33 PM

I don't understand. You don't think that reporters reach out to the subjects of their stories, requesting comment, and hold the stories for varied periods of time?

Credible news absolutely runs that slowly; it's the instantaneous news that's more likely to be suspect - unless I'm misunderstanding your question.

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

7/13/2017 12:58:58 PM

the NYT asked for comments by 11AM, he tweeted his emails right before that

it was apparently a good move to do so, because all you^^ morons think it somehow makes trump jr. look good

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM. Reason : ^^]

7/13/2017 12:59:14 PM

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/341788-exclusive-doj-let-russian-lawyer-into-us-before-she-met-with-trump

Quote :

"The Moscow lawyer had been turned down for a visa to enter the U.S. lawfully but then was granted special immigration parole by then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch for the limited purpose of helping a company owned by Russian businessman Denis Katsyv, her client, defend itself against a Justice Department asset forfeiture case in federal court in New York City."

There you go. Nothing wrong done by the Obama admin here. I look forward to listening to the pivot from GOPers now regarding how if she was never let in then the Trump people wouldn't have been tricked into voluntarily attempting to commit espionage.

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 2:03 PM. Reason : a]

7/13/2017 2:03:03 PM

It is actually pretty amazing to see the insinuations regarding the allowance of this lawyer into the country. They're definitely setting it up to look like a "set-up" by the Obama administration.

And people will eat it up.

7/13/2017 2:15:55 PM

I mean Trump mentioned Lynch by name an hour ago in reference to this. It's a talking point for them.

Also, it's been talked about already, but yes it is absolutely part of journalistic integrity to ask for comment and in some cases delay stories at the request of target. Hard to believe people didn't know this.

7/13/2017 2:17:18 PM

They'll probably just pivot back to immigration enforcement.

7/13/2017 2:22:04 PM

this is all to obfuscate the issue and confuse people, just look at how well it works on morons like eleusis

7/13/2017 2:41:25 PM

the Prevezon case is all probably quid pro quo; or at least it certainly looks shady that they met with a lawyer for the case (the woman who offered Clinton info), fired the the US Attorney, then suddenly dismissed the case with a deal that was very favorable to Prevezon

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

7/13/2017 3:06:00 PM

^x6

Quote :

"The U.S. Attorney’s office in New York confirmed Wednesday to The Hill that it let Veselnitskaya into the country on a grant of immigration parole from October 2015 to early January 2016. Justice Department and State Department officials could not immediately explain how the Russian lawyer was still in the country in June for the meeting with Trump Jr. and the events in Washington."

That doesn't seem to add up with the Russian attorney supposedly flying back into the country in June to meet with the Trump team. Did she get into the country on an expired Visa? Were the discussions in the emails about her flying back from Moscow just lies, and she simply overstayed her Visa and was here all along? Was another Visa issued, and by who?

7/13/2017 4:07:59 PM

edited bc it was old story

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 4:30 PM. Reason : Was on BBC about dumb pee tape rumor]

7/13/2017 4:26:26 PM

Quote :

"That doesn't seem to add up with the Russian attorney supposedly flying back into the country in June to meet with the Trump team. Did she get into the country on an expired Visa? Were the discussions in the emails about her flying back from Moscow just lies, and she simply overstayed her Visa and was here all along? Was another Visa issued, and by who?"

She was granted admittance between October 2015 through January 2016.

According to the NY Times and Donald Trump Jr., she arrived in June of 2016 to discuss the Russian government's backing of Trump and information they had to help. The email exchanges imply she had to fly in from Moscow, so presumably she had left the country and reentered.

So one of a few things could have occurred:
1) She entered the country on an expired visa and was not caught

2) She entered the country on a Russian diplomatic passport which may not require a visa, though I don't know

3) She entered the country on a passport associated with a false identity that granted her a visa waiver (i.e., she entered under a false identity associated with a country with which we allow citizens temporary stays without visas)

4) Someone flew her in via a private flight

5) Someone at the State Department or US Embassy approved a visa for her

6) She never left to begin with

Won't know until someone from DoS answers explains it.

[Edited on July 13, 2017 at 5:19 PM. Reason : a]

7/13/2017 5:18:28 PM

This is the best summary of facts and theories that I have seen so far:

THE RUSSIA CONNECTION
Seven Theories of the Case: What Do We Really Know about L’Affaire Russe and What Could it All Mean?
https://www.lawfareblog.com/seven-theories-case-what-do-we-really-know-about-laffaire-russe-and-what-could-it-all-mean

7/14/2017 5:51:11 AM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russian-lawyer-brought-ex-soviet-counter-intelligence-officer-trump-team-n782851

Looks like yet another detail was forgotten regarding this meeting.

Quote :

"WASHINGTON — The Russian lawyer who met with the Trump team after a promise of compromising material on Hillary Clinton was accompanied by a Russian-American lobbyist — a former Soviet counter intelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence, NBC News has learned. NBC News is not naming the lobbyist, who denies any current ties to Russian spy agencies. He accompanied the lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, to the June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower attended by Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort. The Russian-born American lobbyist served in the Soviet military and emigrated to the U.S., where he holds dual citizenship."

7/14/2017 9:08:16 AM

doesn't seem like a huge deal that they forgot to mention the interpreter that also lobbies for the Russian adoption advocacy group the meeting was supposedly about. I would be a lot more intrigued to find out Jr, Kushner, or Manafort is fluent in Russian.

7/14/2017 11:21:50 AM

Would you be willing to establish some reasonable red lines regarding this stuff that would be too much for you to defend, or do you just prefer the ability to come up with excuses for any and every possible detail that emerges from this?

7/14/2017 11:27:14 AM

^^^^Theory of the Case #8: The President of the United States is a Hillary Plant, but Hillary was just that unelectable.

[Edited on July 14, 2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason : the red line would be if Mueller comes back with evidence of a serious crime.]

7/14/2017 11:31:32 AM

Quote :

"[Edited on July 14, 2017 at 11:32 AM. Reason : the red line would be if Mueller comes back with evidence of a serious crime.]"

7/14/2017 11:38:55 AM

so until Mueller's investigation is complete and he speaks, any and all info that comes out you will be defending as "not a big deal"?

7/14/2017 11:42:10 AM

Presently, Trump sympathizers are coalescing around the below talking point:

"You know, there isn't a specific law that states you shouldn't hit someone in the head with a hammer, so how can you prosecute me for hitting someone in the head with a hammer? Nothingburger!"

Never mind laws regarding any form of assault. Also never mind the fact that I don't need a law for me to know I shouldn't be hammer smashing people.

[Edited on July 14, 2017 at 11:52 AM. Reason : a]

7/14/2017 11:52:27 AM

Quote :

"doesn't seem like a huge deal that they forgot to mention the interpreter that also lobbies for the Russian adoption advocacy group the meeting was supposedly about. I would be a lot more intrigued to find out Jr, Kushner, or Manafort is fluent in Russian."

lol, its not about adoption you moron

also the former military officer, now russian lobbyist and the interpreter are 2 different people



[Edited on July 14, 2017 at 12:33 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2017 12:28:36 PM