Quote :

"Literally every. single. association. and agency in this country that has any interest in government oversight, law enforcement, human rights, colored people's rights, judicial review. Anyone that hasn't looked into this case in the US must have been living under a rock."

back up your claim with hard evidence, dawg

really shouldn't be that difficult if you're as certain as you are

[Edited on December 4, 2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason : I'm afraid you may be flailing ]

12/4/2014 11:58:04 PM

Quote :

"every day, multiple stories come out about how corrupt the Ferguson PD/St. Louis County PD/Bob McCulloch is/has been"

Agreed.

Quote :

"Except these cops were never accused. This logic may fly in a court hearing, but for it to not even go to court, then no crime has been committed. "

Wilson was accused and went to court. The NYPD stuff went to court. I don't think the one who shot Tamir Rice did, did he? I'm probably least familiar with that case.

Quote :

"Should the cops be required to give the benefit of the doubt to the call they are asked to investigate? Isn't there an inherit danger to basically allowing a cop to shoot first, and ask questions later?"

I'm basically viewing it through the lens of it not really mattering either + or - that it's a cop.

To answer your specific question, of course that's a danger.

Quote :

"I don't know, how about wait a second? Maybe verify if the kid is an actual threat? "

Uh, fuck that! If someone whom I know to have a gun, and whom I've been told has been brandishing it and pointing it at people, then reaches for it when I confront him...then that establishes him as a threat.

Quote :

"And I have to ask you, if you agree with the overall sentiment of the protesters, what recourse do they have if you constantly excuse this behavior from law enforcement? It does no good for you to feel their pain, and then turn around and excuse the very behavior that is causing that pain."

I "feel the pain" of the protestors in that I broadly think that blacks don't, on average, get an even shake either at the hands of law enforcement or in the criminal justice system. I "feel their pain" in that I think that police covering their own tracks is such a played out story that it's almost a kind of sad joke ("yep, he'll be suspended with pay for a little while until they clear him"). I even feel their pain in that I think that police are often excessively forceful and dickish, up to and including being trigger happy, and I haven't seen data, but I wouldn't be surprised if that overarching tendency is levied heavier (on average) against black people. I'm just saying that there are plenty of examples of all these things; pick some good ones instead of these that are very muddy at best, and honestly tend towards just being unfortunate situations where you really can't fault the cop except with the benefit of hindsight.

Quote :

"And here's my larger beef with you. This is a consistent stance you hold. You held it for the apache helicopter pilots"

Refresh my memory on the Apache pilots. I don't remember that discussion.

Quote :

"Should we really be giving CIVILIAN police officers the same lattitude for their fuckups that kill American citizens as we do with American troops fighting (supposed) foreign armies? Or, should we, I dunnnnnnnno, maybe hold them to a higher standard when they engage people?"

I think that the main difference is that police officers should have more latitude than John Q. Public to, for lack of a better description, hassle people for being sketchy or suspicious. I think that everyone would agree with that (hell, I'm as much of a privacy advocate as anyone, and I'll even grant that).

When it comes to self-defense stuff, I don't see what difference it makes that it's a cop. If you threaten someone with serious injury or death, cop or not, they ought to be able to respond with deadly force to protect themselves.

So...what sort of higher standard do you want?


* I do think that we need fewer police, enforcing fewer laws, particularly of the victimless crime variety, and that the cops we do have should then be more educated, more professional, more highly paid, etc.

12/5/2014 12:03:33 AM

Quote :

"^I gotta believe that he hasn't seen the Tamir Rice video"

oh no, nope, didn't know there was a video. let me go look...


_________


OK, watched it a few times...pretty shitty footage. very hard to tell much from it, but that is definitely not the setting I had in mind from the article I read on it (like I said, I was least familiar with this case). I'm definitely less comfortable with the outcome after watching that video. I don't know that I could vote to convict them based on what I've seen so far, but I'm pretty sure I could vote for an indictment.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:11 AM. Reason : ]

12/5/2014 12:05:03 AM

have you seen the Tamir Rice video and/or read anything about the officer who shot him?

12/5/2014 12:05:04 AM

^^

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:19 AM. Reason : i know he was a washout from training at another dept or something like that]

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:22 AM. Reason : i agree, he should have at least gone to trial.]

12/5/2014 12:16:56 AM

Quote :

"You really think that grand jury in Ferguson was normal don't you. lol. A prosecutor playing defense attorney at a grand jury proceeding is far from normal."

Prosecutor made a call, its within his rights, if he did something illegal then someone will call him out on, right (and I mean officially, not on the Internets)? You damned if you do, and you damned if you don't. If he did it the way it's "usually" done and didn't get an indictnment (although no case is identical), people would be crying foul the same, saying the grand jury didn't get to hear all the facts.

Quote :

"back up your claim with hard evidence, dawg really shouldn't be that difficult if you're as certain as you are"

Here are some of the parties looking into this right now, dawg I think some of these guys have both legal experience and influence to make an appeal stick, if the case was really mishandled.

FBI http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11/fbi-opens-investigation-into-fatal-shooting-unarmed-black-teenager-in-suburban/

Justice Department http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/04/will-the-justice-department-expeditiously-investigate-the-eric-garner-case-or-the-mike-brown-case/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/us/ferguson-aftermath/index.html?iref=storysearch

The White House http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2014/08/12/president-obama-issues-statement-death-michael-brown

ACLU http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/aclu-sues-to-obtain-mike-brown-shooting-report-sues-over/article_e121542f-f920-58ae-af45-74530c4aa499.html

NAACP http://www.naacp.org/pages/justice-for-michael-brown

Black Law Students Association at Yale http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/yale-black-law-students_n_6250736.html

National Layer's Guild http://www.nlg.org/news/releases/nlg-stands-people-ferguson-condemns-systematic-police-violence-communities-color

UN Committee against Torture http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49444#.VIE95r7M7w4

By the way, if you knuckleheads haven't figured this out yet, I am not saying that I support either of the positions in any of these cases. I am not going to sit here and pretend that I can make any kind of a valid legal determination by watching a video or reading some news than people who participated in the legal process. Some of you, on the other hand, would be happy to declare a verdict right now based on what your uncle's brother told you about this YouTube video he saw. Or sometimes you don't even need to see a video, you already know because you "know black people". Fucking mob mentality over here.

12/5/2014 12:25:41 AM

Quote :

"When it comes to self-defense stuff, I don't see what difference it makes that it's a cop. If you threaten someone with serious injury or death, cop or not, they ought to be able to respond with deadly force to protect themselves. "

I think this is what people are perceiving as the problem. It's the police provoking people, then they use this provocation as an excuse to shoot people.

If you want to grant police a license to kill, then there should be zero tolerance for shenanigans on their part. If they were held to the Same standard as concealed Carry holders that would be fine. But they are held to lesser standards than civilians, while given greater power to be dicks. Combine this with innate biases and historical precedent of almost always getting away, and you have a real life Stanford Prison Experiment, with black communities as the victims.

You can't both grant police leeway on being dicks, AND grant them leeway on killing people. It must be either-or. It doesn't make sense police are killing more people, even though the crime rate is dropping. There's clearly a deeper issue with police culture.

12/5/2014 12:28:58 AM

yeah, this Igor cat is still flailing

12/5/2014 12:35:57 AM

Care to back up your claim, dawg?

12/5/2014 12:37:02 AM

I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing right now

12/5/2014 12:40:31 AM

Quote :

"If they were held to the Same standard as concealed Carry holders that would be fine. But they are held to lesser standards than civilians, "

How so?

(other than sympathetic juries and probably prosecutors. You think the standards are lower in a codified way?)

I'm with you on the rest, particularly the part about deeper problems in police culture.

12/5/2014 12:43:23 AM

whoa this page is mostly tl;dr

12/5/2014 12:43:33 AM

Quote :

"I "feel the pain" of the protestors in that I broadly think that blacks don't, on average, get an even shake either at the hands of law enforcement or in the criminal justice system. I "feel their pain" in that I think that police covering their own tracks is such a played out story that it's almost a kind of sad joke ("yep, he'll be suspended with pay for a little while until they clear him"). I even feel their pain in that I think that police are often excessively forceful and dickish, up to and including being trigger happy, and I haven't seen data, but I wouldn't be surprised if that overarching tendency is levied heavier (on average) against black people."

You can't "feel the pain", theDuke866. Even in quotations marks you can't. You don't know what it's like to be black. Therefore your opinion, however well-researched or relevant it is, carries no credibility. Just ask BlackJesus, the ultimate authority on all things American and Black.

12/5/2014 12:44:11 AM

Quote :

"I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing right now"

You claimed I am flailing. Please show me where I am flailing. Make sure to back up your claim with hard evidence.

12/5/2014 12:45:42 AM

No, not fully, but I can recognize and acknowledge problems.

12/5/2014 12:47:20 AM

^^you posted links concerning other agencies looking deeper into what happened

I simply asked if you have read up on what has gone on/about Bob McCulloch and his history as a prosecutor/how he presented his case to the grand jury, which didn't follow what is commonly thought to be normal protocol

this really isn't that difficult

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:55 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 12:54:58 AM

^^

Quote :

"As I've said multiple times, you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Essentially everything you know about blacks comes from the few you deal with at work, and the news. But you are somehow a fucking expert???"

-BlackJesus

^No, you just quoted my statement about a all the experts looking into this, and asked for hard evidence. I provided you hard evidence of some major agencies looking at this. Apparently, clear communication is pretty hard for you. I am not going back again and digging up all the information about the grand jury. I know it was irregular, I know there was a reason for it, I know it was not the first time it was done this way. If the process was outside the law, of of these smart people will find a way to appeal. If it was within the law and you don't like it, you need to work to change the law, but until then, it is still within the law.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 1:01 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 12:55:22 AM

you need someone to assist you back into the water?

12/5/2014 12:56:56 AM

You need someone to assist you back to your grandpa's plantation?

12/5/2014 1:03:43 AM

you are really, really bad at this

I know you're going to respond with a "I know you are but what am I?", but come on, man. it's all out there for you to read up on. no need to keep deflecting. it's kind of sad.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 1:06 AM. Reason : I'm not gonna hold your hand through it, either.]

12/5/2014 1:05:48 AM

Quote :

"How so? (other than sympathetic juries and probably prosecutors. You think the standards are lower in a codified way?) I'm with you on the rest, particularly the part about deeper problems in police culture. "

If someone with a concealed carry permit were to almost hit someone with their car then open their door into that person, I don't see a jury being as lenient on them when they then have to use their weapon. It's illegal to instigate a fight even when you're not armed, yet cops seem to have this freedom, because you're just supposed to unquestionably yield to an officer (and even then they sometimes still kill you).

Or if you're a concealed carry person, an you somehow hear that a 12 year old on a playground might have a gun, and you accidentally shoot that 12 year old, i don't see a jury letting you off with that.

12/5/2014 1:12:05 AM

^^oh was that a Jesus reference? If so, pardon my lack of understanding. If you are implying that I think I am "holier than you", I don't get where you get it from. You asked a question, I answered. You are not exactly the clearest communicator.

Anyhow, I seem to have forgot this is Chit Chat and not the Soap Box. Everyone can get back to stereotyping now, folks, nothing to see here!

Did everyone know that poor BlackJesusdrives a Pontiac with big black rims? Did you rent those, bro? Anyhow, if you see him out there in dem skreets, you make sure to aks him for some cocaine laced with deworming agent.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 1:31 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 1:17:18 AM

Rim - the upper or outer edge of an object, typically something circular or approximately circular.

Wheel - a circular object that revolves on an axle and is fixed below a vehicle or other object to enable it to move easily over the ground.

Ooooh guys he's proving his point. I replaced my huge 19" factory rims wheels with epic huge 19" black aftermarket rims wheels.

Fucking retard learn the definition of a word before you use it. Cars have WHEELS.

Instead of defending your idiotic statements once again you attempt to redirect the conversation. Guys BlackJesus has nice wheels, he's rich, he can't know anything about being poor blah blah blah. You have republican logic, let me guess, global warming isn't real because it snows.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 7:33 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 7:30:31 AM

Haha and you say you know black people? In the white people's world, those are called wheels. Black people call them rims (or even rimz with a "z"). Do you even know what your car's name stands for?

12/5/2014 7:58:32 AM

No you are just stereotyping continue.

In other news Igor learned that only white people say wheels. Must have heard about rimz on BET.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 8:22 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 8:16:40 AM

WTF is going on ITT?

12/5/2014 9:17:31 AM

Ok, so when stuff like this happens, it is so very hard to just say welp, the courts work. This went to a grand jury to decide on an indictment, they saw all the evidence, and decided there was no wrong doing. Sadly, I think most would gladly wash their hands of the entire thing, and put full faith in the justice system.


Instead, you have a prosecutor that was seen as shady to begin with, who presented limited evidence to a misinformed jury. Why? Theatrics. To give the appearance that it wasn't just a prosecutors sole decision not to indict, but was a collective agreement of a grand jury. Knowing fully well the jury is going to be swayed by how you present the case.

12/5/2014 9:21:21 AM

12/5/2014 9:35:00 AM

To be fair I have always called them rims and I am white. I suppose wheels does make more sense now that you mention it though.

12/5/2014 11:32:20 AM

^^^

ouch, i hadn't seen that pointed out yet.

12/5/2014 11:50:58 AM

You guys are not very bright. Do you understand sarcasm? It doesn't matter if they are runs or wheels. I don't really believe all black people call them rims. I don't really believe that BlackJesus is a cocaine dealer because he has a black Pontiac with tinted windows. I don't really believe that Duke has no idea of what he is talking about when he talks about police and black people. I don't really think that Aftrica and Cancun are countries. Did you ever watch The Colbert Report? Do you know he is really NOT a Republican?

What I am trying to show is how stupid it is for BlackJesus to judge black and white people alike solely by his personal experience with people of that skin color, and how ignorant it is for him to assume just because I'm not exactly in his shoes, I can't possibly relate to his grievances. BJ was not hesitant to make a bunch of assumption based on his assumption that I am a white American. He doesn't know me, and get he assumes I live in a country club. That's like me assuming that because he b
is black, he must live in public housing. That's racism, plain and simple. He is comping about injustice due to ingrained racism in police department, and yet he is not hesitating to be a racist himself in the same thread. If you want to fix the world, start with yourself. I am done with this thread, obviously this is not Soap Box grade discussion, obviously my message is going right over your head.

12/5/2014 12:01:07 PM

+1

12/5/2014 12:05:43 PM

Quote :

"When police went back and searched his SUV, they did find a legally owned firearm. However, Brisbon actually made the conscious decision to leave that gun behind so it stands to reason that he had no intent on hurting the officer. Also found in the car was a small amount of marijuana, which he was also legally licensed to possess under Arizona state law, a friend of the family told The Free Thought Project this week. As for the bottle of pills in his pocket, his family says that they could have been legally prescribed to him from a work-related injury. The police department has neglected to mention these facts to the media, but instead, has instructed them to paint Brisbon as a criminal, suggesting that the legally owned weapon and legally prescribed drugs were evidence that the man was a drug dealer. Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-kill-unarmed-man-doorstep-brought-dinner-family/#qmXK0lYLGWiYVhSX.99"

So for the Phoenix guy killed 2 days ago, supposedly his gun and marijuana were legally owned. The police did report the SUV was covered in french fries. It's not clear why he ran though.

12/5/2014 12:10:25 PM

rim job.

12/5/2014 12:11:01 PM

^^he was probably running because he saw the cops coming, obviously his fears were legit.

12/5/2014 12:31:47 PM

^^^ I read that article this morning, too. Sounds pretty bad. This is my point; with plenty of cases like this one, like Tamir Rice, like Eric Garner, and even worse. I can't figure out why the two most justifiable ones (Martin and Brown) are the two that are rallying all the support.


I would like to read more about this latest case from an unbiased source, though (a source aligned with my own worldview is probably the LEAST useful to me).

12/5/2014 12:35:47 PM

Igor you're an idiot. You have no point. Now go back to NPR and soap box.

Rachet ass thot.

"I've spent 2 pages of post being racist to prove that I'm not racist" Eat shit tard.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:55 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 12:46:33 PM

Quote :

"I can't figure out why the two most justifiable ones (Martin and Brown) are the two that are rallying all the support."

I don't quite agree about them being the "two most justifiable ones", but it really isn't that hard to get they are getting the most support. they both happened before all of the other current cases, and they both, at a base level, deal with the idea that young black men are presumed to be guilty or up to no good, solely based on the color of their skin.

they're also the two that weren't caught on camera

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 12:56 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 12:51:48 PM

Quote :

" Uh, fuck that! If someone whom I know to have a gun, and whom I've been told has been brandishing it and pointing it at people, then reaches for it when I confront him...then that establishes him as a threat."

Okay, so let's examine this logic. Let's say that the suspect does indeed have a gun. So what? Isn't he or she legally allowed to hold a firearm? How does the cop know whether or not the "suspect" isn't a 2A advocate? Isn't that a second amendment right? Shouldn't the cop do a basic level of investigation before peeling someone's cap back? I'm sure this sounds like a stupid thought exercise, but what happens when someone calls a cop on a white, red-blooded American who is carrying a gun in public? You think he gets the same response from law enforcement? Probably not. Let's keep it real. If you're a cop, you go into a situation with a prejudice that views minorities as scary. And clearly that leads to more police homicides when dealing with minority communities.

Quote :

" Refresh my memory on the Apache pilots. I don't remember that discussion"

You basically pardoned the actions of the pilots using the "fog of war" argument. I disagreed with that then, but I could at least accept that argument if you didn't give the same leeway to police officers. I sense a form of "logic creep" where people who tolerate this behavior give the police the freedom to view American citizens as potential threats rather than citizens. Sorry, but they are not an occupying army, and they should be held to a higher standard and the rule of law.

12/5/2014 1:03:33 PM

i haven't even been here that long and I know that the Duke866 is heavily pro-police/military and pro-statist until it comes to things that he might be on the receiving side of then he changes his mind. it seems consistent and not surprising.

Quote :

"You think he gets the same response from law enforcement? Probably not."

when they do get the same response the gun nuts go into a rage and we have to hear about it from Hannity and conservative talk radio for a few days or weeks

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 1:11 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2014 1:08:39 PM

Quote :

"I can't figure out why the two most justifiable ones (Martin and Brown) are the two that are rallying all the support."

It's because you focus solely on the seconds surrounding the fatal events. This dismisses the actions leading up to the shots. The profiling, the suspicion, the following, the confrontation, the antagonizing. These things escalate problems that don't need to be resolved fatally. But they are. Often. And that's the reality of being a minority in America when dealing with law enforcement.

To only focus on the altercation at the moment of the event is done for one reason, and one reason only: to remove agency from the cop (or community watch member) who made a series of bad decisions that allowed for deadly force to eventually be used rather than employing a means of de-escalation.

Then there's the post-shooting shaming. The "thug" washing of the victims. The character assassination. The "he had it coming" narrative that gets put on every single one of these victims.

"He threw the first punch" (after being intimidated by a full grown adult)

"He had demon eyes!"

"He was resisting!"

"He reached for a toy gun!"




It's dehumanizing. Martin and Brown may have both been huge pieces of shit. It's certainly possible. Neither one deserved to die.

12/5/2014 1:16:50 PM

message_topic.aspx?topic=637070&page=17

12/5/2014 1:18:12 PM

White man with gun, aimed at police.



Still alive.

Black kid with gun, in waist band, dead. Take that first picture, replace that white guy with a black guy and tell me he would still be alive.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 1:21 PM. Reason : huge picture]

12/5/2014 1:20:05 PM

Cliven Bundy didn't want to pay taxes and aimed guns at cops. Still alive.


Eric Garner didn't want to pay taxes on loose cigarettes, and was choked to death by police.

12/5/2014 1:29:00 PM

For years, whites have benefited from the privilege of concrete road barriers. It's an EPIDEMIC.

12/5/2014 1:29:10 PM

All it is gonna take is one case now where a cop confronts someone and tries to restrain himself and as a result someone pulls an actual gun and kills the cop to go back on any progress that comes of this.

It really is a shitty situation to be put in and I wouldn't want the job of trying to make a split second decision on if someone is an actual threat or not. I do think anytime you shoot someone who was unarmed at the very least there should be some sort of trial. I get that if the evidence shows it was justified you dont wanna waste time and money with a trial but I think at the very least it shows that you cant just kill an unarmed person no matter who you are and not at least face a trial.

12/5/2014 1:30:14 PM

Quote :

"I know that the Duke866 is heavily pro-police/military and pro-statist"

You have got to be fucking high.

Quote :

"they're also the two that weren't caught on camera "

All the more reason that I don't understand why some of the others aren't the ones getting attention.

and they're also the two who clearly attacked people and were then shot by them.

Hell, it's not even that Trayvon Martin or Mike Brown were the first ones. It's not like this has only been going on over the last year or whatever...and even if that was the case, they were in such rapid succession that you'd think attention would have pivoted to the more clearly worthy cases, as they were very much out there in the public eye before, for example, Darren Wilson was released without indictment.

Quote :

"Let's say that the suspect does indeed have a gun. So what? Isn't he or she legally allowed to hold a firearm?"

Well, maybe...but most of the time, yes...and regardless, most of the time, that should be the assumption, as the cops generally wouldn't know initially if the person is legally allowed to hold it (at least in an open carry state, although even in OC states, walking around actually holding it as opposed to it being holstered is probably a grey area at best).

...but my point isn't about whether or not the suspect (or sometimes not even suspect-just dude encountered by LE) is carrying a gun. It's about if he's threatening them with that gun. That completely changes the calculus. In the description of the incident in the one article I read on Tamir Rice, it sounded like that's what happened. After watching the video, I'm not very convinced.

Quote :

"I'm sure this sounds like a stupid thought exercise, but what happens when someone calls a cop on a white, red-blooded American who is carrying a gun in public? You think he gets the same response from law enforcement? Probably not. Let's keep it real. If you're a cop, you go into a situation with a prejudice that views minorities as scary. And clearly that leads to more police homicides when dealing with minority communities."

You're preaching to the choir on this. I've said from the beginning that I'm totally with you on this subject, among others.

I don't think that the black guy gets a different response most of the time. I don't think that all cops carry prejudices against minorities. Of those who do, I think that the overwhelming majority aren't explicit about it in their minds; they are more subtle, where the cop isn't even really consciously aware of it...but even a minority of cops, subtly and unintentionally prejudiced, treating minorities differently during just some of their encounters, does "[clearly lead] to more police homicides when dealing with minority communities."

Quote :

"You basically pardoned the actions of the pilots using the "fog of war" argument."

I don't even recall which incident you're talking about.

12/5/2014 1:31:27 PM

What really got Michael Brown in the spotlight was when the Ferguson police force rolled through town afterward with tanks and machine guns like it was goddamn Fallujah. In my mind, that's the bigger issue.

12/5/2014 1:33:22 PM

Quote :

"All the more reason that I don't understand why some of the others aren't the ones getting attention."

so the precedent to find fault in the way a person is killed is that it has to be captured on camera in order for it to be worth getting attention? that's a pretty horrible precedent to set.

12/5/2014 1:35:31 PM

People protesting a shooting that they say is unjustified. Cops respond with strong arm tactics and military gear.

12/5/2014 1:35:48 PM