^ yes sir!

Quote :

"sure what they use these buildings for, but I wonder how long they will stay there if no one pays them any mind and just ignores them? Either that or cut off all traffic in and out so they have no supplies coming in? "

This part of Oregon is in bumfuck...
2-3 hours from any decent sized town and 6 hours from Portland. Honestly most things outside of the NW quarter of Oregon are pretty remote.

1/4/2016 11:29:55 AM

You know, even when I was a pretty solid Republican, this was one area where I deviated. If you get into an armed standoff with the government, I am in favor of dropping the massive iron hammer of government might on you. I didn't and don't see the problem with what happened in Waco and Ruby Ridge, except maybe that the feds took too long to resolve the issue by force. And if Obama wanted to roll in some Abrams tanks to this Oregon area and give everybody three seconds to surrender before they filled the place with canister fire, I'd be OK with that, too.

1/4/2016 11:40:49 AM

^^ They've set up DFPs with a roadblock and they have two 'snipers' (or at least armed guys) at a firewatch tower.

1/4/2016 11:48:39 AM

Is this thread also considered as White privilege?

1/4/2016 11:53:07 AM

^^^ so you are ok with women and children being murdered?

1/4/2016 12:20:25 PM

Now that schools have been forced to close, it is officially terrorism.

1/4/2016 12:25:12 PM

This is a more balanced read on whats going on: https://fee.org/anythingpeaceful/no-heroes-in-the-west-fire-feds-and-freeloaders/

1/4/2016 12:28:01 PM

Quote :

"so you are ok with women and children being murdered?"

Are you okay with Tamir Rice being murdered because he had a "fake" gun?

I haven't followed this much, are there children there? And if the women are involved in the "takeover", they're just as culpable as the males, although I surely wouldn't condone bombing them, at least not at this point.

1/4/2016 12:32:39 PM

i think that was in response to the comment about ruby ridge and waco

waco had its problems was a little more complicated, but i'm confused how even a heavy handed authoritarian could be okay with the events at ruby ridge

1/4/2016 12:35:34 PM

Yeah, you right.

1/4/2016 12:40:43 PM

^^^ not trying to represent any one specifically on here but yes, a lot of people are OK with Tamir Rice and his death. The whole "don't put yourself in a situation for a cop to kill you" mindset. Though, to be fair, those same people would likely be outraged at the heavy hand of the government of someone got killed in this situation.

My opinion is the same for both. De-escalate and use common sense with each and every situation.

[Edited on January 4, 2016 at 12:47 PM. Reason : or she was asking for it but dressing like that type mindset]

1/4/2016 12:47:04 PM

What was the initial sentence served? I can't find a timeline.

1/4/2016 1:00:57 PM

Quote :

"For these actions, they were sentenced to a year in jail, which possibly was appropriate considering they endangered people’s lives. But the federal government, citing an anti-terrorism law that sets a mandatory minimum sentence of five years for arson on federal land, demanded that they be re-sentenced. Having already served the first year, they were scheduled to be re-incarcerated for four more years after the New Year."

1/4/2016 1:04:51 PM

I'm trying to find a difference, any difference, between what these guys are doing and the public's/government's response vs say, an armed black man taking up shop in some non-descript federal building (no hostages).

I can't help but think that the response to the latter would end up with a tragedy.

1/4/2016 1:10:19 PM

^^ when was the year term served?

1/4/2016 1:11:18 PM

concur, this needs to be de-esclated.

Ruby Ridge was crap and everyone knows it. LE fucked that one up.

Same with Waco.

I've been having a bit of self-debate. Can you only have a protest if you're unarmed? In our country, with our right to bear arms, it seems hypocritical to say "you can protest but only if you're unarmed", ie "you can practice the 1st amendment but not at the same time as the second". If that's true, then all those conceal carry/open carry protests are actually not protests but terrorism - which is incredibly hard to be believe.

What would the sit-ins and disruptions on college campuses during the Vietnam War be judged as? Would it be protests or terrorism?

Currently, this is a peaceful protest - except for one thing. They broke the law by trespassing on federal/local govt land/buildings for this protest. They're also incredibly stupid by telling LE that they'd die there. I get that it makes their position stronger and forces LE to negotiate but still, pretty stupid.

When does treason come into play here also? They are an armed militia willing to take up arms against the gov't.

I do think that more distinction should be made from those protesting about the Hammonds and those who are currently conducting this operation. The Hammonds have said that these guys don't speak for them.

1/4/2016 1:12:20 PM

if you're seriously asking these questions have fun at the next trump rally

1/4/2016 1:15:19 PM

You do not set up defensive fighting positions in a peaceful protest.

1/4/2016 1:18:04 PM

there's protesting, and there's arming yourselves, occupying federal government buildings, and threatening to shoot any LE who attempts to remove them, all the while attempting to force the federal government to reverse a decision made by the courts.

To compare Vietnam sit-ins to this is stupid.

And yes. Legally speaking you can protest armed. Happens all the time.

[Edited on January 4, 2016 at 1:30 PM. Reason : this isn't protest. this is an operation, as defined by the militia members inside that building.]

1/4/2016 1:28:56 PM

Quote :

"not trying to represent any one specifically on here but yes, a lot of people are OK with Tamir Rice and his death. The whole "don't put yourself in a situation for a cop to kill you" mindset. Though, to be fair, those same people would likely be outraged at the heavy hand of the government of someone got killed in this situation. "

I'm not ok with Tamir's death but where as I see this as a symptom of the drug war inspired
us v. them attitude and post 9/11 police aggresion uptick; the issue is one of police brutality
and forgetting that their motto is "Protect and Serve" not "Arrest and Serve". This in contrast
from the outrage PC and #BLM crowds that think there is a secret conspiracy within police ranks
to shoot people for being black.

Quote :

"except maybe that the feds took too long to resolve the issue by force. And if Obama wanted to roll in some Abrams tanks to this Oregon area and give everybody three seconds to surrender before they filled the place with canister fire, I'd be OK with that, too."

100% Agreed just like i think it would have been acceptable for Minneapolis police to bust out
the water hoses to scatter the #BLM crowds from the freeway that were fucking up holiday travel
at MSP airport.

Quote :

" When does treason come into play here also? They are an armed militia willing to take up arms against the gov't. "

They are staging a revolt after their fellow country bumpkin got arrested for poaching and they are
mad they can't turn federal park land into cattle ranches...

1/4/2016 1:37:42 PM

Has Trump put out an opinion on this yet? This will be a good test for the candidates, to see how they respond.

1/4/2016 1:38:37 PM

I wouldn't call this treason, more armed sedition.

1/4/2016 1:39:53 PM

As the leader right now he's better served to ignore it. Don't want to upset your base with a condemnation and don't want to go too far right and praise it and get nicked on it in the general..

1/4/2016 1:40:17 PM

Quote :

"You do not set up defensive fighting positions in a peaceful protest. "

source?

Quote :

"if you're seriously asking these questions have fun at the next trump rally"

Bruh, , Trump is horrible, but so are all the others.

1/4/2016 1:41:16 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't call this treason, more armed sedition. "

haven't they said they are doing this to call on others to do the same? sedition seems accurate

1/4/2016 1:42:56 PM

Quote :

"PC and #BLM crowds that think there is a secret conspiracy within police ranks to shoot people for being black."

This isn't what a lot of people involved in these "crowds" think. You keep repeating it, over and over and over, but it's not true, it's not that black and white. Your constant repetition of that is the definition of a strawman. It's about systematic racism in law enforcement and the judiciary system, not "mean racists cops want to kill black people".

[Edited on January 4, 2016 at 1:43 PM. Reason : ]

1/4/2016 1:43:01 PM

Quote :

"The Bundys and their allies believe that federal land should belong to the states or the ranchers themselves since the ranchers have grazed their cattle on it for so many generations. "

I've read a couple books on politics in Oregon. A lot of the land in question was actually given to the BLM through use of political maneuvering by the governor in order to conserve natural resources and park land. During the 70's a lot of state owned land and indian reserves were being sold to lumber companies and there was a lot of crooked under-the-table type corruption involved. By giving these lands to the federal government it was thought to be better protecting these resources versus having the big corporations ravage and rape the Oregon country side.

Not sure why there is so much BLM ownership in Nevada though... a lot of that land is fucking barren.

1/4/2016 1:43:23 PM

Quote :

"source? "

Are you kidding me? These armed dudes took over a federal building, threatened to shoot any LE who try to remove them, and you think they haven't set up defensive positions?

1/4/2016 1:43:24 PM

source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

Quote :

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

so this isn't treason.

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Quote :

"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States"

I guess this sets the limits of protesting.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

Quote :

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

So it looks like at the very least this could apply.

1/4/2016 1:46:14 PM

Raiden, how many peaceful protests have you seen with a sniper perch and roadblocks?

1/4/2016 1:53:38 PM

considering that i've not been to many - if any at all in the US, none.

do they have a sniper perch? Or is it high ground where people can see.

long distance shooting != sniper


at any rate, they have might genuine grievances - I don't know if they do or don't, but the tactics of how they are presenting these grievances are shit and designed only to get them jail-time or a coffin.

1/4/2016 2:02:49 PM

It's on a damn firewatch tower

1/4/2016 2:04:24 PM

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_militants_in_high_spiri.html#incart_big-photo

Reports of them bringing children onto the compound now too.

1/4/2016 2:06:08 PM

why are people still tripping over themselves to find a way to rationalize/condone what these idiots are doing?

1/4/2016 2:07:47 PM

^^ that article sounds like people are just coming and going as they please with no repercussions. What am I missing?

1/4/2016 2:13:21 PM

Can we give these guys eastern Oregon and then declare war on whatever country they form?

1/4/2016 2:13:33 PM

Quote :

"source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115"

You seem to be confused.

Someone said:

Quote :

"You do not set up defensive fighting positions in a peaceful protest."

To which you replied:

Quote :

"source? "

To which I replied:

Quote :

"Are you kidding me? These armed dudes took over a federal building, threatened to shoot any LE who try to remove them, and you think they haven't set up defensive positions?"

1/4/2016 2:16:00 PM

I don't know about you, but I consider a sniper perch a defensive position and I'd bet dollars to donuts the have set up more fortified cover elsewhere

[Edited on January 4, 2016 at 2:19 PM. Reason : a]

1/4/2016 2:17:53 PM

1/4/2016 2:18:41 PM

Quote :

"Harney County Sheriff David M. Ward warned residents to avoid the refuge, about 30 minutes south of Burns, and warned that the group’s intent was nothing less than total overthrow of the government. “These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers, when in reality these men had alternative motives, to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States,” Ward said in a statement Sunday."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-militia-oregon-20160103-story.html

1/4/2016 2:29:45 PM

its not, its an observation post which could be used for both offensive and defensive operations. Also, its not a sniper perch - there's no concealment. Its very obvious and any decent shooter can take out the people in that tower from several hundred meters away, it should be easy pickings for the dudes on the FBI's SWAT/HRT/Counterterrorism team.

Also, I've seen a few more images since all this started, a barely competent infantry platoon/company could wipe these dudes off the face of the planet. I say that being in the infantry for 18 years and going. The guys at the checkpoint would be taken out easily, they're not even taking cover behind the engine block not to mention the way they parked the trucks is very easy to bust through. It would be very interesting to see some overhead footage as well. You also gotta wonder how many of these dudes are willing to die - I saw that youtube video posted earlier of one the dudes who is allegedly there and while he said he was willing to die, there was definite hesitation.

All in all, this is fascinating but I think it will end up like Waco/Ruby Ridge unfortunately.

I don't support what they're doing, but trying to understand the why and all that noise.

definitely concur with whoever said

Quote :

"how easy it is for people to be radicalized, and how a diseased ideology can spread amongst seemingly normal people."

1/4/2016 2:37:11 PM

I hope this all ends peacefully but these assholes definitely shouldn't leave feeling they got even a small victory. The only victory they should get is still being able to breathe.

1/4/2016 2:39:24 PM

Concur, NyM410.

If they aren't dead when this is done, then definitely should be in jail.

the reddit threads on this is fascinating.

1/4/2016 2:42:06 PM

just get a bunch of bricks and seal these guys in the building Edgar Allen Poe style.

1/4/2016 2:42:08 PM

I like the word 'fascinating'

1/4/2016 2:42:34 PM

I think its possible what they want is for one of their dudes to get killed so they can turn him into a martyr for their cause - which could drive an increase in membership/funding/etc.

1/4/2016 2:54:01 PM

There's plenty of precedent for taking up arms against this government, and there's plenty of precedent of those arms being swiftly lopped off. Shay's rebellion anyone?

I don't think anything is going to happen here. These guys are like N.Korea. Talk a lot, stir up some news coverage, then go away.

1/4/2016 3:00:55 PM

Quote :

"Talk a lot, stir up some news coverage, then go away go to jail for a long time"

FTFY

1/4/2016 3:23:50 PM

Y'all Qaeda
Vanilla ISIS
Hee-Hawdists.
Yokel Haram
Y'all Shabab

1/4/2016 3:29:42 PM

MOOjahideen

1/4/2016 3:40:30 PM