Yes, one crazy person did a horrible thing. Was there fighting before that happened?

8/14/2017 1:03:10 PM

Quote :

"eleusis has quite a long history on here taking the side of extremely unwarranted police strength in the face of peaceful BLM protests."

the fuck I do. I've been vocal about the absolute failure of the police to do anything in the opening events of Baltimore and Ferguson; trying to describe those as peaceful BLM protests is revisionist history. I didn't voice much about the Dallas BLM sniper attacks other than to say that the media escalated that situation into existence. The events in Charlottesville this weekend pale in comparison to what happened in Dallas last year.

8/14/2017 1:03:25 PM

Quote :

"Okay, you guys are correct about the makeup of this rally, but it's beside the point. We have a large portion of the left who thinks our anthem should be "punch nazis", and a sizeable portion that is following through. When that is the standard for counter-protest, violence is to be expected from both sides."

violence against fascists is okay, it is not equal to violence by fascists

8/14/2017 1:04:55 PM

Quote :

"violence against fascists is okay, it is not equal to violence by fascists"

I'm not saying that violence against hate is equal to violence for hate.

I am saying that the end result is the same - more hate, not less.

8/14/2017 1:07:36 PM

Quote :

"It absolutely does matter who started it We know who started it. We know who instigated it. And we know escalated it to deadly force"

you do? considering that you posted a picture of a black guy getting swarmed and beaten literally seconds after said black guy knocked someone unconscious outside of the parking deck, I have trouble believing you do. You know who you want to be responsible for everything, but everyone that showed up to this event was looking for this to happen.

Except the cops; they didn't want to be involved in any violence whatsoever apparently.

8/14/2017 1:07:57 PM

Dude is trying to make a George Zimmerman argument here.

Absolutely nothing that preceded the car attack would justify the car attack.

8/14/2017 1:08:36 PM

Quote :

"what do we hope to accomplish by punching anyone deemed a "nazi"?"

worked pretty well against Oswald Mosley

8/14/2017 1:08:38 PM

Quote :

"Absolutely nothing that preceded the car attack would justify the car attack."

obviously not, but we're the fucking adults and we can help prevent these things from happening.

8/14/2017 1:09:48 PM

Look, I'm condemning this whole thing, but for JesusH, tgl3, and other nazi punchers, I'm just curious at what point do you consider actions being self defense?

If you go up to someone and yell in their face repeatedly things you know they don't want to hear, hurl insults, etc, and they push you or punch you or whatever, at that point when you retaliate from the push/punch...is that self defense? Even though you went on the offensive?

Being a nazi is not ok. But planning provocation of said nazi isn't ok either. Some people just have short tempers, and there is only so much poking and prodding they can take. If you push a person past that point, then don't you own some of the responsibility of whatever conflict results? Now I'm not talking about the cars in the protestors - that is above and beyond and a blatant act of terrorism. But if you come and try to incite violence, and you're successful, then what? You're 100% innocent from the results?

And on a separate note, where the f did all these white supremacists come from anyway? Is there anything we can do about them? Should these people be able to exercise the same free speech that we all have? Because I have the same free speech issue with radical imams who get to preach and pray behind the first amendment. To me a white supremacist and a radical imam are of the same kind of evil strain, and it seems like there's nothing we can do about it, because it becomes a very slippery slope once we start restricting speech.

8/14/2017 1:09:58 PM

Everyone in here making "stand your ground" arguments can fuck off

8/14/2017 1:13:43 PM

this isn't just a random people bumping into each other

nazis organized a show of force, and good americans challenged it and met their violence with both violence and peaceful assembly

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:13:50 PM

Quote :

"To me a white supremacist and a radical imam are of the same kind of evil strain, and it seems like there's nothing we can do about it, because it becomes a very slippery slope once we start restricting speech."

Plenty of western Democracies have criminalized hate speech that incites violence against certain categories of people without triggering some sort of "slippery slope" into blanket censorship or suppression of the right to demonstrate lawfully. Unfortunately in ours, the SCOTUS has reaffirmed the rights of these folks to carry on.

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:20 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:18:25 PM

Apparently the act of chanting "blood and soil," wearing swastikas and Confederate flags, and brandishing assaults rifles and weapons aren't considered provocation.

But telling those people to go fuck themselves is?


And if you tell them to fuck themselves, they are allowed to join a group and beat the shit out of minorities (who they profess to hate) and then deliberately run over protesters with their cars.


But many sides, right?

8/14/2017 1:18:25 PM

Ok. Well I wasn't there so I don't have first hand accounts of who started the physical violence. But if the nazis showed up looking scary and some folks didn't like it, that's one thing.

If the nazis started the violence then they deserve whatever punches they got and continue to get.

But it seems like we're reaching a fever pitch here, with a commander in chief who won't even talk tough about the violence. If anything, I bet silently, behind the scenes, he's looking at it from a stand your ground perspective, and is afraid to alienate his base.

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:20 PM. Reason : better clarify]

8/14/2017 1:19:33 PM

Quote :

"But it seems like we're reaching a fever pitch here, with a commander in chief who won't even talk tough about the violence. If anything, I bet silently, behind the scenes, he's looking at it from a stand your ground perspective, and is afraid to alienate his base."

He dropped the "both sides" phrase and did not mention anything relating to the alt-right/white nationalists/nazi side of things. He's absolutely guilty of this and anyone who attempts to act as if he's coming at this from some sort of nuanced perspective if full of it.

8/14/2017 1:24:19 PM

I'd just like to point out that you said the word "nazi" twice.

We don't know if the Nazi's committed any violence at a Nazi Rally where non Nazis were killed

8/14/2017 1:25:22 PM

In the past, Antifa have showed up to conservative rallies and started punching people with Trump hats. It's reasonable to suspect they may have done the same here.

AND AGAIN, OBVIOUSLY NOT OKAY TO RUN THEM OVER

BUT, we are supposed to be the good guys here. It is up to us to direct things away from violence, not the gun-toting nazi retards.

8/14/2017 1:28:47 PM

Quote :

"nazis organized a show of force, and good americans challenged it and met their violence with both violence and peaceful assembly"

There were no "good Americans" involved in any way in Charlottesville - just Nazis and Commies. Good Americans were staying at home.

8/14/2017 1:30:48 PM

^^no, we are not supposed to be the good guys, we are supposed to fight fascism

for fucks sake, you can't appease nazis

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:31 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:31:27 PM

There were no "good Poles" in the streets of Poland in 1939, they were all at home.....

Hang on I'm getting an update..





[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:36 PM. Reason : Pick a side, people]

8/14/2017 1:34:38 PM

Quote :

"Pick a side, people"

I have picked a side. I just disagree with the tactics.

8/14/2017 1:40:11 PM

"guys, it's only fair to hear things from the nazi point of view. they may have a viable argument or two"

8/14/2017 1:42:08 PM

Quote :

"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” "

- Martin Luther King Jr

8/14/2017 1:44:51 PM

Quote :

"no, we are not supposed to be the good guys, we are supposed to fight fascism"

How do you propose we fight fascism? Last I recall, the last fight to end fascism resulted in a world war where we had a clear cut idea of who the bad guys were. In your context, the bad guy could be dude outside fixing your A/C, to use a blue-collar stereotype.

You want a civil war?

You think showing up at protests is really going to show these people a thing or two? They show up with their sticks and guns and militia gear and see a whole bunch of other protesters and say "aw shucks, they beat us here, we better go home."

Or how about in our justice system? Gonna legislate out the murky resurgence of fascism in 21st century America? Like I said earlier, restricting speech is a slippery slope, and sure maybe they've passed laws in other countries, but time and time again we see that America is an exception. I'm sure those other countries also don't have every 5th person carrying a CCP. ANY attempt to restrict free speech will be seen by these same protesters as a slight against them. (Unless of course it is being surreptitiously done by Trump)

8/14/2017 1:45:53 PM

Quote :

" I have picked a side. I just disagree with the tactics."

the "let the nazis do what they want and maybe just like some anti-nazi posts on facebook" side

8/14/2017 1:45:53 PM

Quote :

"How do you propose we fight fascism?"

like they did in charlottesville

organize against them, when they threaten violence come ready to challenge it. when they come in body armor carrying assault rifles, have a detachment of the socialist rifle association ready to challenge them.

8/14/2017 1:47:40 PM

^^^ What are you arguing, dude? That we wait for them to be large and powerful enough before we begin opposing them?


They WERE driven out of their own protest. The counter protests DID work.

8/14/2017 1:50:14 PM

Quote :

""guys, it's only fair to hear things from the nazi point of view. they may have a viable argument or two""

Trying to suppress a movement with violence usually has the opposite intended effect. So while I think they're misguided idiots, I think it's important to let them talk. And so does the ACLU.

Quote :

"- Martin Luther King Jr"

Well here's another from MLK:

Quote :

""Nonviolent resistance does resist. It is not a method of stagnant passivity. While the nonviolent resister is passive in the sense that he is not physically aggressive toward his opponent, his mind and emotions are always active, constantly seeking to persuade his opponent that he is wrong. The method is passive physically, but strongly active spiritually. It is not passive non-resistance to evil; it is active nonviolent resistance to evil.""

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:52 PM. Reason : "The Martin Luther King Jr. Center for Nonviolent Social Change"]

8/14/2017 1:50:56 PM

dude you need to learn more about MLK and the civil rights, he was confrontational

8/14/2017 1:52:48 PM

It's sort of a false equivalency to bring up antifa punching random MAGA hats. That was and will always be wrong. No one is saying it's ok to roll up to a peaceful tea party protest to start dropping people.

But there is a pretty big difference between people yelling about government waste and spending versus people armed to the teeth who have a literal stated goal of dividing America up in regions by ethnicity.

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:54 PM. Reason : "Well actually sir you're misguided by thinking every non-Aryan is a subhuman" is not going to work ]

8/14/2017 1:53:26 PM

nonviolent does not mean passive or non-confrontational, and i'm not saying we should not confront them

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:53:48 PM

^^Why does everything have to be an argument? I asked a question? Do you really thing facsists are going away with just protests?

8/14/2017 1:54:26 PM

Quote :

"think it's important to let them talk. And so does the ACLU."

and I support the ACLU, but they're defending their right to free speech against the government, not from citizens shouting them down

they deserve to be shouted down from every mountaintop in the country

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:56 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:54:29 PM

i'm not against that at all, i'm totally for it. shouting is fine. physical violence, outside of self-defense, is not.

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 1:55:59 PM

Quote :

"Do you really thing facsists are going away with just protests?"

no, and ironically challenging them will probably cause them short term gains because it legitimizes them to those who have been radicalized

but what direct action against them does is cause them to lose political support, it causes them to lose media support or for the media to stop normalizing them and giving them credibility, it causes people opposed to them to notice what is going on... it is just one step not the entire way to stand against them. When these guys were just "far-right" or "alt-right" the media and politicians treated them like a credible group. it was only by challenging them and meeting them with direct action that it is made clear that these are nazis, and racists, and fascists.

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 2:02 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 2:00:33 PM

You also need people of the left to be martyred for the cause. Which is the uncomfortable truth that adultswim seems to dancing around. Sympathy breeds support. I understand the desire to have the moral high ground, but that should preclude giving up an inch to the rising tide of fascism

8/14/2017 2:06:17 PM

i mean i would be okay with the moral high ground if it worked

it doesn't work, and it hasn't been working for the democratic party

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 2:14 PM. Reason : and also it's moral to punch a nazi]

8/14/2017 2:07:19 PM

Quote :

"You also need people of the left to be martyred for the cause. Which is the uncomfortable truth that adultswim seems to dancing around. Sympathy breeds support."

I'm not uncomfortable with that concept. In fact, I've made a similar argument about healthcare. The problem is it's tough to breed lasting sympathy for martyrdom when you have a faction of the left actively choosing violence. You want a martyr? Sit in the street and lock arms. Otherwise, there's no way you're convincing people like eleusis.

Quote :

"I understand the desire to have the moral high ground, but that should preclude giving up an inch to the rising tide of fascism"

I'm not interested in the moral high ground, I'm interested in what works. Think about all of the moments in the civil rights movement that are considered pivotal today. What's the common theme?

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 2:26:39 PM

That civil rights argument completely erases the Malcolm X's and Fred Hampton's of the movement.

The non-violent actors were favorable to the armed members of the left. And even the non-violent actors were killed

8/14/2017 2:28:57 PM

^^ confrontation, direct action, violence

Quote :

"Otherwise, there's no way you're convincing people like eleusis."

that will never happen and shouldn't be a goal

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

8/14/2017 2:29:02 PM

If this past year has taught us anything, it's that there's no benefit to finding common ground with the radical right

V I have no idea what he is, but if his last few posts are any indication, I have zero patience for his political opinions on anything

[Edited on August 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM. Reason : ]

8/14/2017 2:35:38 PM

You're sorely mistaken if you think eleusis is the radical right...

8/14/2017 2:38:23 PM

he is a racist authoritarian

8/14/2017 2:39:32 PM

i like how adultswim has become such a subaru driving, craft beer, soy-latte type of liberal that he is now defending nazis and eleusis

8/14/2017 2:40:44 PM

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/05/new-class-war/

I found this to be a pretty damned good read.

8/14/2017 2:42:10 PM

^^
not once did i defend nazis or eleusis

honestly, you're a detriment to any cause you try to champion. all you care about is being right and calling people who disagree stupid.

8/14/2017 2:44:49 PM

^^ Eh, adultswim doesn't bother me. I think he's generally got his heart in the right place. He doesn't appear to be a moderate whose deluded into thinking our issues can be solved via electoral procedures, so I'm fine with our differences

8/14/2017 2:44:58 PM

^^ i don't have a cause that i'm trying to win anyone too

8/14/2017 2:46:45 PM

I do.

Socialism or Barbarism. Those are our choices.

8/14/2017 2:48:51 PM

i'm a leftist and a pacifist. but these days that makes you a moderate.

8/14/2017 2:50:12 PM