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 Message Boards » » The FairTax-Good for Both Liberals & Conservatives Page [1] 2 3 4 5, Next  
EarthDogg
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As the 2005 W-2s are being distributed and our attention turns to filling out tax forms, I would like to once again draw your attention to the benefits of the FairTax.

The FairTax (H.R.25 and S.25) is a bill currently waiting for a vote. When passed, it would eliminate the federal individual and corporate income tax, The alternative minimum tax, social security withholding tax, capital gains tax and medicare tax. It would replace these taxes with a 23% inclusive consumption tax on all new goods and all services. The tax would not be imposed on used goods.

The Fairtax has features that will appeal to both liberals and conservatives....


Quote :
"Liberal Arguments

Better Tax Relief For The Poor - The FairTax does more to relieve the heavy burden of taxes on the poor than any other tax plan in our nation's history. Those of you who have traditionally supported a strongly graduated income tax to help relieve the impoverished need look no further. The FairTax Plan provides a tax prebate every month that completely relieves individuals and families living at or below the poverty level from paying taxes. That's right; 100% tax-free living at or below the poverty level. No other tax strategy has so strongly empowered the lower classes to climb their way towards earning a dignified living.

Provides A Direct Incentive to Improve Low Income Neighborhoods - The FairTax Plan is a national sales tax on new goods and services. That means that the although the cost of buying a new home will not likely be much higher than it is today, there will be a new found savings in purchasing a refurbished home. Some developers will observe a direct incentive to stop clear-cutting natural lands and focus efforts on rebuilding and improving existing structures...and where will they turn? Lower income neighborhoods. The same run-down neighborhoods that have been all but invisible to developers in years past. For the first time in decades, it will make solid financial sense to develop and improve existing properties in many of America's lower income areas. There will also be an added emphasis on quality and robust construction, as many homeowners will learn to appreciate the resale advantages of refurbished homes.

Better For The Environment - As a national sales tax on new goods and services, the FairTax Plan creates a direct disincentive for heavy, wasteful consumption of "throw away" products. Americans will once again learn to appreciate the value of durable high quality goods much like many of our European counterparts. It may even be worth your while to get that nice quality blender fixed rather than buying a new disposable one. Quality, not quantity, will be on the mind of consumers once again...and less quantity, means less waste. The FairTax simply promotes a culture that is more likely to recycle and reuse.

Promotes Social Equality – The FairTax treats all Americans exactly the same. The wealthy will no longer be able to take advantage of loopholes or use expensive tax attorneys and accountants to, as some have said, “cheat” their way out of paying taxes.

Reduces Political Corruption & Corporate Lobbying – The FairTax Plan eliminates the incentive for corporations to lobby politicians for special tax advantages. Corporations will no longer collect taxes under the FairTax plan. Eliminating these special interests means that politicians are less likely to vote with their corporate supporters in mind, and more likely to vote in the best interest of their voter base.

Improves Political Productivity – All of the time congress currently wastes wrestling over tax related issues will be available to solve the real issues facing of our time. Congress will have to make notable progress on social issues to have bragging rights; a feat far more impressive than simply touting how they “lowered” this tax and “fixed” that tax.


Conservative Arguments

More Privacy in Personal and Financial Affairs – With the FairTax, the government will no longer have the right to intrude into many of the personal and financial affairs of American citizens. Its nobody’s business how much money you give, will, or get from family and friends. Aside from the suspicion of illegal activity, the government will no longer have the right to scrutinize over where you work, how you made your money, how much you have, and what you spend it on.

Promotes Family Values – Under the FairTax Plan, marriage no longer carries any tax consequences. Removing the financial incentives to marriage restores the dignity and sanctity of the act. Furthermore, the tax incentives associated with retaining custody of children from divorced marriages will no longer play a role. The decisions regarding the future of such children ought to depend solely upon their best interests.

Protects Personal Liberties – Under the FairTax, the IRS, which is currently exempt from the provisions of the 4th Amendment, will no longer exist. The fundamental rights afforded by the 4th amendment that prevent unlawful search and seizure were a core philosophy of our founding fathers.

Empowers Private Businesses – The FairTax Plan will allow private businesses to employ help with far less paperwork. Employers will also have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to employment arrangements. Hiring workers on a trial basis will demand less of an investment. A more open labor market will result in higher productivity."

1/24/2006 1:45:52 PM

TGD
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Can't find the thread where DirtyGreek got ripped by me, so I'll just borrow this one from Kris as a stopgap 'til I find it...

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=309701

IOW the "FairTax" is a joke and an embarassment

---

oh and Kris if you happen to read this, it's going to be the only time I quote you favorably so don't get used to it

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 1:50 PM. Reason : ---]

1/24/2006 1:47:45 PM

TGD
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on a side note EarthDogg, do you work for these people?

I didn't realize how many of these FairTax threads you've created until I did a search for them, you're like the 7th or 8th one...

1/24/2006 1:53:28 PM

spöokyjon

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Quote :
"the "FairTax" is a joke and an embarassment"

1/24/2006 1:53:31 PM

super ben
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^^ The search sucks. Probably closer to 15. And don't even bother counting the offtopic references to it in other topics...

1/24/2006 1:55:11 PM

TGD
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damnit Jake, you ppl deleted the thread

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=50112

---

Socks``'s thread includes some good stuff though, including some rehash of the DG thread

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=235460

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 1:59 PM. Reason : ---]

1/24/2006 1:56:59 PM

DirtyGreek
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i don't recall ever being extremely for OR against the fair tax, but hell, I dunno.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to me

1/24/2006 2:00:03 PM

EarthDogg
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Thanks to D-Greek's excellent thread, I can spot TGD's fruitless Ad Hominem attack.

Taxation is one of my favorite issues and I am an unabashed fan of the FAirTax.
I try to space the FairTax topics so as to catch new SoapBoxers who don't have the time to search through old threads.

1/24/2006 2:08:17 PM

TGD
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^
You didn't answer the question.

1/24/2006 2:15:09 PM

cyrion
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you'd think getting rid of all that complicated tax-y goodness would result in a tremendous loss of jobs.

1/24/2006 3:15:31 PM

Excoriator
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It is ironic that you included this in the liberal argument:

Quote :
"No other tax strategy has so strongly empowered the lower classes to climb their way towards earning a dignified living."


If anything, that is probably the primary reason why liberals would never support the Fair Tax.

1/24/2006 3:15:57 PM

abonorio
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It's pretty simple... instead of taxing income, you're taxing consumption. That does a hell of a lot to relieve the tax burden on the poor.

My name is abonorio and I support this thread.

1/24/2006 3:18:18 PM

TGD
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^
haha [no]

but your post at least made me smile

1/24/2006 3:22:40 PM

cyrion
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you'd think the poor would be the one buying the cheap products to cut down overall costs. not everyone can afford a super nice blender....but again, maybe it is just me.

1/24/2006 3:23:02 PM

Excoriator
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why do you think they're poor

... they have no idea how to manage their money

1/24/2006 3:23:48 PM

abonorio
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Bill Clinton buys a $1000 haircut and pays $230 in taxes. The poor man goes to the barber shop and pays $10 for a haricut and $2.30 in taxes.

It's a tax on consumption which the poor cannot consume as much. This doesn't make sense how?

1/24/2006 3:27:12 PM

cyrion
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because the poor or those who generally buy more of these perishable/cheap-ass goods not some high quality shit that lasts forever.

which i already said, nice/durable goods cost a lot (probably even moreso after passing this

so the poor are being taxed on most of, if not all their income, while rich ppl are only being taxed on a small portion.

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 3:31 PM. Reason : i guess thats what you get down to arguing whats fair, seems like it just makes the rich richer]

1/24/2006 3:28:28 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"you'd think getting rid of all that complicated tax-y goodness would result in a tremendous loss of jobs."


Yes..the bulk of IRS employees and professional lobbyists will have to find other employment.

Quote :
"That does a hell of a lot to relieve the tax burden on the poor."


Exactly. Under the FairTax, the poor will effectively pay zero federal taxes. All of the sales tax they pay is rebated back to them each month. Eventually everyone could have a gov't-issued debit card that is recharged each month with the rebate. This would save a lot of processing charges.

Imagine getting your whole pay-check and getting to decide how much and when you pay fed. taxes through your purchasing decisions. . The current system punishes achievement

1/24/2006 3:37:35 PM

super ben
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Isn't the real support for a "consumption tax" based on the idea of erradicating capital gains, estate taxes, etc?

If the Rockafellers passed their fortune down with no cap. gains and no estate tax, they'd own all of us. Literally. And don't tell me that poor people would hypothetically put more into investments tax free. We all know poor people spend all of their money on booze every Friday.

1/24/2006 4:00:40 PM

Gamecat
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Immediate reactions:

Quote :
"Corporations will no longer collect taxes under the FairTax plan."


So corporations, with all the rights and privileges of citizens, and who benefit as much from the services provided by taxes as the rest of us, don't have to pay into the system?

Sure sounds fair to me...

1/24/2006 4:02:28 PM

jocristian
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Corporations don't pay taxes now. They pass it on to the consumer in the form of higher prices on goods/services.

1/24/2006 4:07:08 PM

TGD
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Quote :
"EarthDogg: Under the FairTax, the poor will effectively pay zero federal taxes. All of the sales tax they pay is rebated back to them each month. Eventually everyone could have a gov't-issued debit card that is recharged each month with the rebate. This would save a lot of processing charges."

In other words, "Hey I don't trust the government to manage an income tax fairly, but by golly I trust 'em to figure out what basket of über-critical goods to exempt from a sales tax so we can determine the rebate amount!"

Your faith in government is impressive, you sound like part of teh L3ft.

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 4:11 PM. Reason : And you never did answer the question...]

1/24/2006 4:09:36 PM

jocristian
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you havent done any reading on the proposal obviously. The number has been found. The government ALREADY calculates the poverty line every year and the rebate will equal that amount of consumption updated every year to account for inflation.

1/24/2006 4:13:49 PM

Gamecat
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Quote :
"Corporations don't pay taxes now. They pass it on to the consumer in the form of higher prices on goods/services."


So that's why they spend all that time and money lobbying for lower taxes. Because they don't pay them at all.

1/24/2006 4:18:34 PM

cyrion
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i dont think the jobs lost would be limited to the IRS and lobbyists.

1/24/2006 4:29:12 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"..... I trust 'em to figure out what basket of über-critical goods to exempt from a sales tax so we can determine the rebate amount!""


Clarification TGD, There are no products exempted from the sales tax. In fact it's critical that all goods and services are taxed to maintain revenue neutrality of the plan. Of course it will be up to us to prevent politicians from allowing exemptions thus reintroducing the lobbyist problem.

Quote :
"So that's why they spend all that time and money lobbying for lower taxes. Because they don't pay them at all."


Corporations don't ultimately pay fed. taxes. Whatever a company does to cover the corporate tax they owe, an individual ultimately pays it. This is either in higher prices, lowering costs such as payroll, or hitting individual share-holders through lower dividend checks.

Corporate taxes are merely a deceptivie way for the go'vt to squeeze more money out of the individual. It costs total American businesses $400-500 BILLION each year to comply with the current tax code. And guess who ultimately pays that too..yep- you and me.

It is true, G-Cat, that Washington is full of high-paid layers and lobbyists working on behalf of corporate interests. The FairTax threatens their way of life. They will fight tooth n nail to defeat it. As the FairTax idea gains strenght, the battle will ultimately consist of two sides.. power hungry politicians, lobbyists and big-gov't socialists on one side and the rest of us on the other.

1/24/2006 4:42:48 PM

scottncst8
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For the supporters of the fair tax let me ask this question:

The tax base now is completely drawn from a 23% tax on consumption. Examine the situation of someone making 500,000 a year. Previously he paid an approx. 30% of the 500,000 to the federal government, 150,000. Now lets say he spends 200,000 a year and saves 300,000 under the new system. He now only pays 23% of 200,000, or 46,000. Even if he spent all 500,000 (which is not the case) he would still only be paying 23% on the 500,000 instead of the earlier 30%. The disparity between previous taxes paid and tax paid under the fair tax system only becomes worse as income increases (average federal tax rate previously paid increases along with an increase in money not spent on consumption which is now untaxed). So the rich are paying less taxes, corporations aren't paying any taxes, and investments are no longer taxed. My question is this: Where does the money come from?

1/24/2006 5:02:53 PM

TGD
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^
the Tooth Fairy. surely you knew that already.

---

Quote :
"jocristian: you havent done any reading on the proposal obviously. The number has been found. The government ALREADY calculates the poverty line every year and the rebate will equal that amount of consumption updated every year to account for inflation."


. <==== you

the point ====================================================> .

I mean even EarthDogg understood...

---

On a side note, I'm sure most of us have read the proposal at least once over the years. BS isn't like wine though, it doesn't improve with age...


[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 6:09 PM. Reason : and EarthDogg still hasn't answered the question]

1/24/2006 6:05:57 PM

Protostar
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Investments shouldn't be taxed anyway. I support this plan. I would REALLY like to see a flat tax implemented like in Hong Kong. The government just collects a 10-15% tax on all incomes and that's the end of it.

1/24/2006 7:09:49 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"Where does the money come from?"


The income tax base is much smaller than the consumption base. A lot more people are spending money than are making money.

1/24/2006 7:13:39 PM

spöokyjon

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Quote :
"Corporations don't pay taxes now. They pass it on to the consumer in the form of higher prices on goods/services."

People don't pay taxes now. They pass it on to business in the form of less spending on goods/services.

See, I can say stupid shit and act like it's meaningful too.



Okay, let's take a look.

The "fair" tax is regressive. Poor people have to spend a greater portion of their income in order to cover basic living expenses.

Spending overseas is rewarded. Why pay a 23% tax in America when you could pay nothing somewhere else?

What defines "new" goods?

What about housing? It seems this would be a strong disincentive to the construction of new homes, wreaking havoc with the housing market. Are people expected to buy a new home for $200,000 and pay $46,000 on top of that? Can you imagine what it would do to have 23% of every new home investment just disappear?


I mean, for fuck's sake, did somebody just come up with this idea and not think of the implications? It's fucking stupid.


Oh, and we've got state and local taxes on top of all of that.

1/24/2006 7:17:54 PM

Johnny Swank
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I really want to like this idea, but its fucking silly once you did into it.

Now I'm off to start my taxes for this year.

1/24/2006 7:35:28 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"Oh, and we've got state and local taxes on top of all of that."


Currently, we have income taxes on top of state and local taxes.

Quote :
"What defines "new" goods?"


..From the h.r. 25 bill:
`(16) USED PROPERTY- The term `used property' means--

`(A) property on which the tax imposed by section 101 has been collected and for which no credit has been allowed under section 203, or

`(B) property that was held other than for a business purpose (as defined in section 102(b)) on December 31, 2006.


Quote :
"The "fair" tax is regressive. Poor people have to spend a greater portion of their income in order to cover basic living expenses."


The rebate feature of the law relieves the poor of all federal tax responsibility. This includes the regressive payroll tax that the working poor pay now.

Quote :
"Spending overseas is rewarded."


Once the embedded 22% tax on goods and services is eliminated, the final price you pay with the Fairtax will be close enough to current prices that off-shore purchasing won't really be worth it.

Quote :
"What about housing? "

The FairTax has many advantages for homeowners. You make mortgage payments with pretax dollars. You no longer have to mess around with itemizing. You can save up for downpayments much quicker. Because lenders would no longer pay taxes on income, it is as if every homeowner is entitled to finance with a tax-free municipal bond.

Quote :
"did somebody just come up with this idea and not think of the implications?"

Millions have been spent researching the FairTax. A lot of thought has gone into it. You can check out the details at the group's website Fairtax.org.

1/24/2006 7:52:53 PM

cyrion
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well you only get the rebate if you are significantly poor. everyone in the lower middle class or upper lower class still gets screwed.

1/24/2006 8:00:45 PM

scottncst8
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Quote :
"The income tax base is much smaller than the consumption base. A lot more people are spending money than are making money."


gg on completely missing the point. Any tax reform will have to be revenue neutral, my post was addressing the tax burden on people of different income levels. Your plan leaves the poorest people paying no tax through a means of rebates and the upper class paying less taxes than they are currently paying, so to maintain revenue neutrality the middle class will have to pay much more in taxes than they currently are. I was then hoping this would lead your (apparently non-existent) train of thought to the fact that any tax plan involving a huge increase in tax burden on the middle class won't ever get even half a second of consideration by people who actually have a say in the matter. I knew it wouldn't actually lead you to realize the stupidity of this tax plan, but hope springs eternal.

A good reference for your situation EarthDogg:

http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

edit: upon further consideration abonorio could read up on that link too

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 8:44 PM. Reason : .]

1/24/2006 8:42:34 PM

mathman
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The fair tax is a nice idea, but I have a hard time imagining how it could be implemented in a way that
wouldn't throw the economy into fits. I mean buisnesses and individuals have built their whole life
around the crazy structure that is the tax code. If we just change the rules mid-stream it will ruin the
finances of many people. To avoid that you would have to impose a fair tax that was effectively lower
taxation for everybody. I applaud that, but that can only come with simultaneous reductions in
spending. Reduction in federal spending is a more noble goal in the short term. Clearly W and the
current congress as a whole is not fiscally conservative, perhaps if we could get a few more true conservatives in the congress we could actually cut the government down to size, (and by cut I don't mean a reduction in growth, I mean the programs recieve less $$ next year)

1/24/2006 9:16:51 PM

boonedocks
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Luckily FairTax will never happen.

1/24/2006 9:21:21 PM

spöokyjon

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Good point. We might as well be discussing a change in unicorn grazing fees.

1/24/2006 9:25:11 PM

scottncst8
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unicorns clearly need higher grazing fees, buncha lazy freeloaders

1/24/2006 9:26:58 PM

cyrion
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unicorns ruined my magical turnip crop. i vote unregulated hunting of the beasts.

1/24/2006 10:16:07 PM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"Your plan leaves the poorest people paying no tax through a means of rebates and the upper class paying less taxes than they are currently paying"


Remember that everyone gets the rebate. The Fairtax helps the middle class as well.

This is from FairTax.org:
Quote :
" Let’s look at a billionaire under the FairTax – if he spends $10,000,000 dollars he pays a tax of $2,300,000 and gets a rebate of $4,283 (assuming he is married and has no children). His effective tax rate is 22.96 percent.

Now, let’s look at a middle-income married couple, under the FairTax, with no children – if they spend $40,000, they pay $4,917 net of their rebate for an effective tax rate of 12.3 percent. The effective tax rate increases as spending increases, but never exceeds 23 percent.
"


Quote :
"FairTax will never happen."

Actually, it's gaining popularity. But if you've run out of intellectual ammo, we can discuss unicorns.

1/24/2006 10:30:20 PM

scottncst8
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If you ever decide to face reality and understand why people think you and your Fairtax plan is a joke please come back and reread the thread. Until then have fun in your fantasyland.

[Edited on January 24, 2006 at 10:59 PM. Reason : .]

1/24/2006 10:39:54 PM

boonedocks
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Opening federally protected unicorn habitats to big oil will not solve our energy problems.

1/25/2006 12:22:01 AM

Prawn Star
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67% of America's oil reserves are on federally protected land. I'm sure that a lot of that land is occupied by unicorns and other freeloaders.

1/25/2006 12:40:49 AM

spöokyjon

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I think we all know the real reason this taxation plan will never get its due, and I think we all know it has to do with gnomes.

1/25/2006 1:32:46 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Sigh...

Nobody in here has any idea regarding the level of self-restraint I'm subjecting myself to at the moment.

[Edited on January 25, 2006 at 4:03 AM. Reason : I'm drunk, alright? Mispellings happen, you bastards. Eat a dick. ]

1/25/2006 3:58:06 AM

LoneSnark
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I too am affraid that any tax-overhaul will need to wait until discretionary spending (or, hopefully, SS & Medicare) is reduced mightily. As mathman said, any drastic change should be revenue neutral or a cut for everyone affected.

1/25/2006 9:50:01 AM

EarthDogg
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Quote :
"any drastic change should be revenue neutral "


As designed, the FairTax is revenue neutral...and it will reduce taxes for most Americans.

Any grassroots project takes time and dedication. Fortunately, it doesn't take everyone's involvement. Our country broke away from England with only a small minority of activists pushing the rest.

Many projects were dismissed as "Never Gonna Happen" - women's suffrage, civil rights, the Berlin wall. But eventually the nay-sayers wre proven wrong.

The law is written and waiting for a vote. We just need to pressure our elected politicians to support it. Go to FairTax.org and simply sign the petition. Send a e-mail to your congressman and senator. If you are fed up with the income tax, and the IRS then tax reform is worth that small amount of your time.

1/25/2006 10:45:27 AM

TGD
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You never did answer the question...

1/25/2006 11:00:20 AM

EarthDogg
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^
What question is that?

1/25/2006 11:35:34 AM

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