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stopdropnrol
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i don't follow politics as closely as i should but y isn't there more emphasis on this? seems like everybody is feelin the economic crunch except those with a "debt to society". can we switch them from 3 meals a day to 2 and take away some of their comforts (cable tv, internet,etc). also maybe they could release some of the non-violent criminals. i know they were considering revising the 3 strike rule but it seems that's more of a case for reform since prison is supposed to be rehabing the inmates. with estimated cost of incarceration ranging from 28k to 60k per year seem like a great place to free up some $$.

6/9/2009 3:44:50 AM

BobbyDigital
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pretty sure that there are tons of cuts to the prison system pending.

6/9/2009 7:36:27 AM

HUR
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Quote :
"pretty sure that there are tons of cuts to the prison system pending.


"

6/9/2009 8:38:27 AM

darkone
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Work Camps. Let's see prisons produce a return on investment.

6/9/2009 4:09:31 PM

sarijoul
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california just in the past few weeks talked about releasing a lot of non-violent offenders early because of budget problems.

6/9/2009 4:14:09 PM

eleusis
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a recession is the perfect time to release a bunch of people who cant get a job yet have a history of drug abuse and stealing shit.

6/9/2009 4:16:47 PM

mrfrog

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wouldn't that increase the unemployment?

A problem of this recession is that there is a decreased demand for labor. Cutting benefits (i use this term loosely) for prisoners and making them work both increases the supply of labor and reduces the demand for labor.

6/9/2009 5:12:38 PM

hooksaw
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As a former correctional officer, I can safely say that I know more about corrections than anyone here (not to be douchey about it). And I'd say that the OP is typical of a lot of folks out there.

I'll address your points/questions:

Quote :
"can we switch them from 3 meals a day to 2"


1. No. Inmate care--after maintaining custody--is one of the main responsibilities of corrections staff. When one becomes a ward of the state, the state must provide for that ward's needs in accordance with all applicable policies and laws.

2. Furthermore, food quality--and in your scenario, quantity--is directly related to institutional security. Mess with inmates' food at your peril.

3. Even if you could get past the governing policies and laws, the security challenges would require many more officers. Would you want to pay for this?

Quote :
"and take away some of their comforts (cable tv, internet,etc)."


1. This may sound good, but many of the programs at issue are pennies on the dollar to what could be taking the place of those comforts--idle hands are the devil's workshop.

2. Also, these programs can be given and they can be taken away, in the form of punishment.

3. And all inmates need is a cause to rally around for an uprising to take hold.

Quote :
"also maybe they could release some of the non-violent criminals."


Some states are doing just that.

http://tinyurl.com/mv4oop

But recidivism rates must be taken into account. The short-term gain could lead to a long-term loss.

Quote :
"i know they were considering revising the 3 strike rule but it seems that's more of a case for reform since prison is supposed to be rehabing the inmates."


1. I never liked the three-strikes law. It puts judges in a box in which rational decisions go out the window--kind of like "zero tolerance."

2. Incorrect concerning rehabilitation. Most corrections departments don't claim to rehabilitate any inmate. The results are just too inconsistent and are based on a number of variables.

Quote :
"with estimated cost of incarceration ranging from 28k to 60k per year seem like a great place to free up some $$."


Costs must be considered on a state-by-state basis. But, yes, many states are paying too much per inmate for incarceration.

6/9/2009 6:22:22 PM

erice85
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i have always hated the take the cable tv from them argument

it goes back to what you were saying, without such forms of entertainment in place, it is much more difficult to control their behavior

6/9/2009 11:57:26 PM

HUR
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^^ wow that had to be teh most informing, rational, and insightful post I ever read by hooksaw.

At the issue of the OP I think prisoners should be broken down into

"Those that will make their way back into society and should be rehabilitated along with punished for the crime."

AND

"Those who are in prison for life (i.e you murderers, serial rapists, drug king pins, mob bosses in for racketerring etc)."

For the latter let em rot.

6/10/2009 12:03:37 AM

skokiaan
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^that's cause he's bullshitting about everything else. OP stumbled upon one of the few things that crazy knows about.

6/10/2009 12:43:35 AM

hooksaw
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^^ Um. . .thanks? I guess you just haven't bothered reading many of my other posts, which are often "informing, rational, and insightful."

^ Oh, and look what my post was followed by. A personal attack on me that is both unsubstantiated and has nothing to do with the topic.

Do you have anything to offer on the topic? No?!

6/10/2009 1:52:23 AM

BobbyDigital
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what about giving prisoners the unhealthiest food possible?

then they'll die early of health problems and will have shorter lifespans in prison.

6/10/2009 7:44:13 AM

pooljobs
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how about we fix the retarded drug policies and mandatory sentencing laws in this country so that our prison population drops and we save money that way

6/10/2009 10:54:56 AM

bcsawyer
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There are a lot of cuts, prison closings, etc... being proposed by the governor for the legislature to consider in next year's budget.

6/10/2009 11:53:46 AM

ssjamind
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6/10/2009 3:37:05 PM

RSXTypeS
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just mass-execute the violent ones... problem solved.

6/10/2009 4:31:10 PM

stopdropnrol
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in regards to 3 meals a day why is that considered a "need" ?most Americans don't eat 3 meals a day and we give our children only 1 or 2 a day. i don't think brunch and dinner would be cruel or unusual.

6/10/2009 6:21:29 PM

aaronburro
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didn't you know? anything less than jacking off the inmates whenever they want is considered "cruel and unusual." Because prison isn't supposed to be a punishment or anything like that

6/10/2009 6:51:49 PM

hooksaw
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^^ I can't confirm the practices of all states, but many state correctional facilities adhere to the American Correctional Association dietary guidelines. And facilities must provide special diets for medical, religious, and other reasons.

I don't know if some states still do this, but in North Carolina in the old days, an inmate would be given what was referred to as "diet loaf" as a form of punishment. This loaf contained a full day's nutritional value--all cooked into one unappetizing lump.

But I can tell you this, a chow hall is one of the most dangerous places in any prison, and a quiet chow hall is one of the most unnerving things a correctional officer can experience. I still get a little creeped out thinking about a couple of times I experienced it--everybody knows something's up, but only a few know what it is or what is going to happen. And there may be only a handful of officers in this closed area with dozens or even a hundred or more inmates--many of whom are hardcore killers.

Like I said, fuck with inmates' food at your peril.

6/11/2009 12:50:38 AM

hooksaw
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Three inmates escape from a maximum security prison

Quote :
"Three inmates escaped from a maximum-security prison in Indiana. Police are looking for Lance Battreal, Charles Smith and Mark Booher.

Battreal is serving a sentence for rape. Smith and Booher are serving time for murder.

It appears they escaped through tunnels under the grounds of the prison in Michigan City."


http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/50617062.html

I realize that most of you don't know this, but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons. Yet, you want to house some of the worst terrorists here? And, yes, I know that some are already here.

1. Have you ever considered the influence that some of those terrorists would have over a good portion of the prison population?

2. Have you ever considered that most correctional officers train to keep inmates in the prison--not to keep attackers out?

7/14/2009 5:59:30 AM

HUR
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OH NO's since a couple inmates managed to escape from prison, whom 2 of 3 have already been caught, we better turn the lights back on
to Gitmo!!!!

Fuck lets just cap their asses then we wouldn't have to worry about them anymore period, AM I RITE?

Quote :
"Have you ever considered the influence that some of those terrorists would have over a good portion of the prison population"


ya the ones not shanked would be known for being the biggest bitches in the prison and sucking a mean dick. What influence would this otherwise
be. While a "leader" could stir up trouble; i'm under the impression that most of these inmate are just lowly peons who would likely have little influence.
When it comes down to it I think we'd be better off having a few "turrists" escape than some of the dangerous minds we have locked in these
prisons.

The flaw in your entire post hooksaw is you lump Abdul lowly Jihad running foot soldier with the actual leaders like Abu Sayyaf al-Shihri

Also, do you really think Al Qaeda would orgainize a major operation in the US just to free their captured comrades. You really do not understand how these people
think apparently. If they went through this much efford they would surely be blowing up grandma's house or making an actual attack.

7/14/2009 8:46:58 AM

agentlion
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have you ever considered that the vast majority of the prisoners in Gitmo, as well we the vast, vast majority of Al Queda fighters, are probably brain-dead religious fanatics and fighting drones, and you're only doing them a PR favor by imbuing them with mythical superpowers of persuasion, prison breaking and the destruction of the US from the inside?

7/14/2009 9:09:29 AM

HUR
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Quote :
"have you ever considered that the vast majority of the prisoners in Gitmo, as well we the vast, vast majority of Al Queda fighters, are probably brain-dead religious fanatics and fighting drones, and you're only doing them a PR favor by imbuing them with mythical superpowers of persuasion, prison breaking and the destruction of the US from the inside?

"


Not to mention each and everyone of them is 10x more powerful as a martyr

7/14/2009 9:13:27 AM

aaronburro
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how does that work? Is it like Mario getting the super mushroom and spitting fireballs, or what?

7/14/2009 9:14:15 AM

HUR
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I was thinking more about Star power



[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 10:01 AM. Reason : k]

7/14/2009 9:56:34 AM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"
I realize that most of you don't know this, but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons. Yet, you want to house some of the worst terrorists here? And, yes, I know that some are already here."


There is a world of difference between the Supermax in Florence Colorado and the Maximum Security Prison in Allentown.

We already have many terrorists locked up at the Supermax and haven't had a single problem yet. 23 hour a day lock up and no interaction with other prisoners.

I would also assume they would be treated similar to the Mariel Cubans who are currently locked up in Lewisburg Pennsylvania who are under 24 hour lockdown.

Now, in terms of prison cuts in North Carolina, we'll probably see a few prisons closed as a result of recent budget cuts. We've also been lucky in avoiding the ridiculous three strikes law. And of course major reform in Senate Bill 488, which would apply the same sentence lengths to inmates sentenced before structured sentencing and those sentenced afterwards.

7/14/2009 7:32:56 PM

hooksaw
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^ I knew some know-it-all would post something like that. Do you really want to do this?

Okay, please Google/Wiki furiously and explain to us all the difference between a supermax prison and a maximum security prison.

7/14/2009 7:47:00 PM

nutsmackr
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What would a VA Corrections worker know about Federal Maximum and Federal Supermax?

I wonder if you have even bothered to look into it.

7/14/2009 7:52:28 PM

hooksaw
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^ You posted. . .

Quote :
"There is a world of difference between the Supermax in Florence Colorado and the Maximum Security Prison in Allentown."


Now. . .

Quote :
"Okay, please Google/Wiki furiously and explain to us all the difference between a supermax prison and a maximum security prison."


. . .or STFU. It's quite simple.

7/14/2009 8:03:01 PM

nutsmackr
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24 Hours of solitary confinement with only one hour for showering and exercising alone

No prison jobs

No actual contact with outsiders and visits with guests are from behind plexiglass

etc.

Is not that much different than

General population where inmates are allowed to interact with each other

Prison jobs

Visits with outsiders in which they are not separated by a physical barrier



Yup, not much difference there.

And no googling necessary, you ignorant self-absorbed idiot.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 8:08 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 8:07:40 PM

hooksaw
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^ Wrong. Here's how we do it in North Carolina:

Quote :
"Maximum security units are comprised of cells with sliding cell doors that are remotely operated from a secure control station. Maximum security units are designated by the Director of Prisons at selected close security prisons. These units are utilized to confine the most dangerous inmates who are a severe threat to public safety, correctional staff, and other inmates. Inmates confined in a maximum security unit typically are in their cell 23 hours a day. During the other hour they may be allowed to shower and exercise in the cellblock or an exterior cage. All inmate movement is strictly controlled with the use of physical restraints and correctional officer escort."


http://www.doc.state.nc.us/dop/custody.htm

Dumbass.

Quote :
"SUPERMAX

SUPERMAX

SUPERMAX!!!1"


Wait, wut supermax mean? Duh. . .errr. . . .

7/14/2009 8:11:09 PM

nutsmackr
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Because the North Carolina Department of Correction is the same as the United States Bureau of Prisons

And the North Carolina Department of Correction is the same as the Indiana Prison System.

Dumbass

7/14/2009 8:13:55 PM

hooksaw
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^ Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures. You don't know what you're talking about.

7/14/2009 8:16:36 PM

nutsmackr
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I've already shown you some of the differences.

Sucks when you get called on bullshit, doesn't it.

Let's see, Florence, Colorado ADX:

Quote :
"As a result, most individuals are kept for at least 23 hours each day in solitary confinement. They are housed in a 7 ft (2.1 m) by 12 ft (3.7 m) room, built behind a steel door and grate. Their free hour is spent exercising alone in a separate concrete chamber. Prisoners seldom see one another, and the inmates' only direct human interaction is with correctional officers or other prison staff. Visiting from outside the prison is conducted through glass, with each prisoner in a separate chamber. Religious services are broadcast from a small chapel.

Part of the prison is a "stepdown" program, designed to encourage less antisocial behavior and eventually transfer prisoners out of the ADX and back to the Maximum Security population. The program is three years in length with each subsequent year allowing more freedom and social contact with other inmates. Any violation during the program means participants revert to year one.

Most cells' furniture is made almost entirely out of poured concrete, including the desk, stool, and bed. Each chamber contains a toilet that shuts off if plugged, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink missing a potentially dangerous trap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, and a television set that shows recreational, educational and religious programming.[4] These privileges can be taken away as punishment. The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (1.2 m) windows are designed to prevent the prisoner from knowing his specific location within the complex because he can see only the sky and roof through them. Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correctional officers.

The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors, and 12 ft (3.66 m) high razor wire fences. Laser beams, pressure pads, and attack dogs guard the area between the prison walls and razor wire."


Compare it to High Security Prisons, I'll used USP Lewisburg since I actually have toured the facility. Inmates have jobs, are not in 23 hour lockdown. Inmates interact with each other in the yard, albeit in smaller crowds then other Federal Pens. etc. etc. etc.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 8:27 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 8:31 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 8:20:24 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures. You don't know what you're talking about."

7/14/2009 8:23:41 PM

agentlion
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how about hooksaw just admit that he's literally pissing his pants over the mere idea of some brown-skinned Muslims running around free in the US, as if having two oceans surrounding us and two long, unsecured borders are what's actually going to keep him safe.

7/14/2009 8:24:02 PM

nutsmackr
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Hooksaw, why don't you just admit you don't know the difference between the Supermax in Florence, Colorado and High Security Maximum Security Prisons.

While your experience in the VA DOC might be of high authority when it comes to discussing that prison system, it means shit when discussing the BOP.

7/14/2009 8:29:50 PM

hooksaw
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^ Try Virginia and North Carolina prision systems, dumbass. I have more experience and training in corrections than probably anyone you ever met.

Quote :
"There is only one supermax prison in the United States federal system, ADX Florence in Florence, Colorado. However, many states now have created supermax prisons, either as stand-alone facilities or as secure units within lower-security prisons. State supermax prisons include Pelican Bay in California and Tamms in Illinois. The USP in Marion, Illinois was recently downgraded to a medium-security facility."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax#United_States

Now. . .

Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures. You don't know what you're talking about

."

7/14/2009 8:33:50 PM

nutsmackr
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Yup, because the US is going to be transferring convicted terrorists to State run Supermax facilities and not the Supermax in Florence Colorado.

Why won't you just admit that the BOP is different than state correctional practices and your little rant about an escape at a maximum security prison in Indiana has no bearing on the USP Florence?

Quote :
"^ Try Virginia and North Carolina prision systems, dumbass. I have more experience and training in corrections than probably anyone you ever met."


That's a pretty bold statement considering my line of work, plus I grew up in a town that housed a Maximum Security Federal Penn. and a vast majority of my friends' parents were prison guards.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 8:38 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 8:36:34 PM

hooksaw
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^ Because you're wrong--explain the difference. You can't because there is very little difference--this is a fact.

7/14/2009 8:38:19 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"^ Because you're wrong--explain the difference. You can't because there is very little difference--this is a fact."


Maybe in State prisons there isn't much of a difference between supermax and maximum, but we aren't talking about state prisons. We are talking about the Supermax in Florence.


Now answer me this tough guy. How many maximum security prisons in the US have all of the following conditions:

23 hour solitary confinement
1 Hour of exercise in a self contained concrete chamber
only direct human interaction is with correctional officers and other prison staff
Visiting is conducted through glass with each prisoner in a separate chamber
Religious services are broadcast from a small chapel into the cell
cell furniture made almost entirely out of poured concrete
toilet that shuts off if plugged,
a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding,
sink missing a potentially dangerous trap.
The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (1.2 m) windows
Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden
food is hand-delivered by correctional officers.
No prison jobs

With the prison possessing the following

The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors, and 12 ft (3.66 m) high razor wire fences. Laser beams, pressure pads, and attack dogs guard the area between the prison walls and razor wire.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 8:48 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 8:39:56 PM

hooksaw
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^
Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


After all, maintaining custody is the issue, right?

7/14/2009 8:43:15 PM

nutsmackr
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What tangent have you rambled onto now. Custody procedures are the issue here. After all you said, "but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons."

7/14/2009 8:50:35 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


I'll post this a thousand times if need be.

7/14/2009 8:53:26 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"What tangent have you rambled onto now. Custody procedures are the issue here. After all you said, "but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons.""


Anyone not attempting to masturbate their ego will recognize the massive difference between ADX Florence and any other Maximum Security Prison. After all, when it comes to housing terrorists, ADX Florence would be the place and not Pelican Bay Maximum Security Prison or any other prison for that matter.

7/14/2009 8:55:49 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/14/2009 8:56:45 PM

eleusis
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so what if a terrorist actually did manage to escape? The only bad thing that would happen would be a lot of innocent brown-skinned people getting shot by paranoid rednecks before the national guard is able to track down the escaped convicts.

7/14/2009 8:56:51 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"What tangent have you rambled onto now. Custody procedures are the issue here. After all you said, "but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons.""


Anyone not attempting to masturbate their ego will recognize the massive difference between ADX Florence and any other Maximum Security Prison. After all, when it comes to housing terrorists, ADX Florence would be the place and not Pelican Bay Maximum Security Prison or any other prison for that matter.

Again, even if the custodial procedures similar, it doesn't make the conditions of the lock up the same nor does it make the security at ADX Florence unsafe.

7/14/2009 8:58:37 PM

hooksaw
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^^ The "national guard"? Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus Act? Guess not. Sweet Jesus.

^
Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 9:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 8:59:02 PM

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