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JesusHChrist
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Except it isn't an extreme position. You share the same position as establishment Washington. You use the same rhetoric as Nicky Haley, who uses the same passive voice ("suffering" rather than punishment) by shifting blame to Hamas for the direct actions of the IDF. The language you use (passive voice and all-sides-ing) is the same language the right uses when dismissing the grievances of BLM in the US (you referred to the protest as a riot, don't pretend that you didn't). You bring up the destruction of property (tire burning and wire cutters) as evidence of maiciousl intent (right-wingers do this all the time. See: Ferguson, Baltimore, or DAPL). You use the same fear mongering that Donald Trump uses to gin up support for his border wall to justify the existence of the apartheid wall.

You keep trying to reinforce how progressive your position is, but if the most powerful nation on earth and the most influential nation in the region both agree and/or tolerate your position, how progressive can it possibly be?

[Edited on May 16, 2018 at 6:20 PM. Reason : ]

5/16/2018 6:16:49 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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I don't think there is such thing as a purely progressive view on this conflict, and I'm not claiming that mine is. I'm certainly not in line with the Trump administration which claims Israel can do no wrong or that Israel should be supported at all costs. Many Republican Jews I encounter call my position anti-Zionist, which shows just how outrageous many of their worldviews are.

I see some Jews congratulating Israel on it's strong defense of the Jewish state by shooting into the crowd, which disgusts me, and Jews saying they are ashamed to be Jewish because of it, which also disgusts me. Both of those views make every Jew every responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, which in my view is dangerously convenient for actual anti-Semites in America on both the left and the right.

Quote :
"At what point do you believe violence against oppressors is justified, on a scale from Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto?

I mean seriously, you admit that Palestinians have been systematically discriminated against, displaced, and imprisoned, but you don't think the oppressed have a right to respond with acts of war?"


Palestinians are oppressed and in many cases murdered by Israel, so it's justified for them to fight back. But if their acts threaten Israeli civilians then Israel is going to defend them. Israel responds with excessive force, then Palestine is in worse condition, Hamas grabs more power, the retaliation ante is upped again and again and again. So then at what point do you say that this obviously isn't working and try something different?

What is absolutely NOT justified is deliberately bringing children to the protest when you know for certain there is going to be violence. I can't believe that people get away with criticizing Israel for intentionally shooting children while ignoring that those children were intentionally brought to the place people were already getting shot.

5/16/2018 6:58:06 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"What is absolutely NOT justified is deliberately bringing children to the protest when you know for certain there is going to be violence. I can't believe that people get away with criticizing Israel for intentionally shooting children while ignoring that those children were intentionally brought to the place people were already getting shot."


--bdmazur

Quote :
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."


-- Golda Meir, 4th Prime Minister

5/16/2018 7:03:48 PM

UJustWait84
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Quote :
"What is absolutely NOT justified is deliberately bringing children to the protest when you know for certain there is going to be violence. I can't believe that people get away with criticizing Israel for intentionally shooting children while ignoring that those children were intentionally brought to the place people were already getting shot.
"


Tell that to MLK. Using kids was actually a critically important technique that was used to incite public outrage. When people saw children being attacked by K9s during lawful protests, public sentiment shifted pretty quickly in favor of the Civil Rights Activists. Are you going to condemn the Parkland teenagers' parents for letting them get involved and talking to the media, too?

Look, sometimes there isn't a 'right' or 'wrong' side when it comes to certain issues, but Israel is totally in the wrong here and the rest of the world knows it. Israel can either allow Palestinians to assimilate into its 'democracy', or it can carry on with its low-key ethnic cleansing and brainwashing campaign and point fingers at Hamas.

5/17/2018 2:12:03 AM

dtownral
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Is moving families with women and children into settlements deliberately bringing children or nah

5/17/2018 12:08:39 PM

0EPII1
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Now they want to build another 2,500 illegal homes in the West Bank.

https://www.rt.com/news/427645-israel-settlements-west-bank/

5/24/2018 11:23:49 AM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Rockets and mortor shells launched into Israel today, the count is over 70. Civilian areas including schools were directly targeted. Countdown until one of you tries to altruistically tell me they deserved it.

5/29/2018 6:53:03 PM

dtownral
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no one is saying that israel deserves these kinds of things, what you are refusing to understand in israel's role in creating the environment that encourages these kinds of things

5/30/2018 8:46:58 AM

bdmazur
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Just because the Israeli government and establishment aren't the only ones to blame doesn't mean I deny Israel's role in it.

5/30/2018 2:57:47 PM

dtownral
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you consistently dehumanize palestenians and downplay israel's role

5/30/2018 3:30:11 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Not what I've done or said or thought at all. People with unwavering love for Israel call me a traitor. People with steadfast hate for Israel call me an apologist. I say there is a peaceful solution out there that doesn't involve either side dissolving their national identities if the "leaders" of both sides would care about anything other than maintaining and/or taking power. I see more to the conflict than a body count, that doesn't mean I don't care about the body count.

I've marched in Tel-Aviv in protest of settlement expansion. I've contributed to organizations on the ground providing health care in Gaza. I'm as much if not more so involved in Israeli political media outreach than I am in American politics when national elections come around, trying to get Netanyahu's regime out of power. I've done a hell of a lot more than the white college kids who refrain from buying certain brands of hummus out of solidarity.

The change has to come from within. Israelis have to put the right people in power who will follow through with a peace plan that involves full withdrawals from the West Bank settlements and an end to Hamas as a both a terrorist organization and a political movement. But when either side issues attacks like what they saw yesterday, the harder it gets.

5/30/2018 6:10:18 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
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What about right of return?

5/30/2018 6:13:35 PM

bdmazur
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^I think it's a complicated conversation that statesmen more qualified than any of us will need to handle.

At some point new borders are going to need to be drawn, and all the people will need to decide on which side of the line they wish to live, and understand that they are choosing which government will oversee them. Arab-Israelis live similar to how Hispanic immigrants live in the US...victims of institutionalized racism while otherwise functioning and contributing as full members of society. They vote, they go to public schools, they pay taxes, they serve in the military.

We're about 30 years away from having no living person born prior to the existence of Israeli and Palestinian national identities. We'll hear the "only home I've ever known" argument for both staying and leaving from both Palestinians and from Israelis on both sides of whatever border is decided upon.

But step 1 has to be the end of violent attacks and military strangleholds. Then the dismantling of settlements in the territories and the creation of a new united Palestinian government. Then borders and agreements on trade and transportation, and then immigration. Trying to agree on all the changes all at once makes it impossible to make any changes at all.

[Edited on May 30, 2018 at 6:38 PM. Reason : -]

5/30/2018 6:37:18 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"full withdrawals from the West Bank settlements"


That's NEVER happening. The number of Israelis, civilians or politicians, who are in support of that can be counted on one hand, relatively speaking.

If I am wrong, let me know.

5/30/2018 7:30:50 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Happened in Gaza in 2005. IDF had to forcibly remove many Israelis from their homes, and that's what would likely have to happen again.

But you know what? The Israelis who had to move mostly got over having to move. The real problem was leaving a power vacuum for Hamas to swallow up, and that's the main fear those living in Israel-proper are going to have.

5/30/2018 7:59:15 PM

0EPII1
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You are right, it did happen in Gaza.

But aren't the ones in the WB far more established, not just temporally, but also in terms of how elaborate and 'permanent' they are? Plus, they cover a much wider area and house a lot more people than the ones in Gaza did.

5/30/2018 9:24:46 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
" I've done a hell of a lot more than the white college kids who refrain from buying certain brands of hummus out of solidarity."


BDS has done more to raise the profile of the plight of Palestinians than you have. Without question. That's why so many US states are trying to outlaw these forms of protest (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/groups-slam-states-crackdown-israel-boycotts-171024014735793.html.)

Your little marches can and have been ignored by the power elite. Depriving the power elite of their streams of income and denying them of a pool of cheap labor is far more effective at creating change then your upper-middle-class marches and "media outreach."

Quote :
"The change has to come from within."


This is not true. Outside pressure and immediate action such as strikes and boycotts force rulers to make concession that they would otherwise neglect to make. This is a tactic that moderate do-nothing-liberals fail to grasp. Politics is a power struggle, not a dialogue.

Quote :
"But step 1 has to be the end of violent attacks and military strangleholds. Then the dismantling of settlements in the territories and the creation of a new united Palestinian government. Then borders and agreements on trade and transportation, and then immigration. Trying to agree on all the changes all at once makes it impossible to make any changes at all."


A two-state solution is no longer viable. No serious scholar on this conflict believes this is even feasible anymore. Israel has two options: They can either allow Palestinians amnesty and the right to openly return (which would probably require reparations of some sort) and move toward creating a unified secular state with full rights granted to Arab citizens, or they can continue their slow-motion colonial project. A unified Palestinian state cannot exist when a foreign country continually encroaches on non-existent borders while having full military control over their sea and airspace while controlling all commerce and trade as well as limiting movement. Palestine in its current form does not have enough of a contiguous geographic land-mass to even exist independently.


Here's a good talk on the subject for anyone serious about the subject matter (skip ahead to minute 0:44):

https://theintercept.com/2018/05/16/war-crimes-and-collective-punishment-senator-ron-wyden-on-gina-haspel-and-the-cia-and-norman-finkelstein-on-gaza/

5/30/2018 11:02:12 PM

0EPII1
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44343263



More evidence that the barbarians shoot indiscriminately, or perhaps even target and assassinate medics and children.

6/3/2018 2:04:32 AM

0EPII1
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^ her dying moments, on video:

https://www.facebook.com/trtworld/videos/2124013777868767

6/3/2018 3:12:50 AM

0EPII1
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This clip from Al Jazeera showing proceedings -- about the killings of protesters by Israel -- in the UNSC is surreal:

https://www.facebook.com/pakistanidefence/videos/10155970649767663

Quote :
"United States faces another diplomatic humiliation at the United Nations Security Council as Nikki Haley fails to garner a single vote against the resolution tabled by Kuwait to condemn Israeli military aggression against Palestinian protesters. The loser Haley then used Veto."


Oh, and as you will see in the video, after what you read described above, the US then tabled its own resolution, for which there were some votes against, some abstensions, and NOT A SINGLE VOTE IN FAVOR, except Nikki's (US's) vote.

It is high time this fundamentally unfair system of vetos is ended.

P.S. Cute -- as in, SICK -- how she uses the "you are either with us or against us", just worded differently for that context. What a vile woman. Her, and that Huckabee.

6/3/2018 11:21:00 PM

adultswim
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https://twitter.com/malsaafin/status/1004454589033275393?s=20

Israel’s “right to defend itself” in action

6/7/2018 11:17:33 AM

0EPII1
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^
Video shows moment Israeli sniper shoots Palestinian footballer in the knee, ending his career

Mohammed Khalil needs knee replacement surgery if he is to walk again


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestinian-footballer-shoot-video-sniper-protest-gaza-idf-a8288496.html

6/7/2018 11:47:25 AM

0EPII1
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Jewish American Tourists Walk Off of Birthright Trip to Join Breaking the Silence Tour of...

These Jewish Americans walked off their Birthright trip to learn about the real experience of Palestinians firsthand

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisNews/videos/2145332195498259

Truth-seeking young American/Canadian Jews leave "Birthright" trip to join "Breaking the Silence", a group formed by former IDF soldiers with a conscience to visit the occupied territories.

Watch the other members who are opposed to them leaving bark bigoted nonsense in their faces.

7/10/2018 1:08:31 AM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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There are trips for American students (Jewish and not) to go to see the territories, hear from IDF soldiers and Palestinians and families who lost children and see everything this group wanted to see. But instead, they went on birthright, which is pure tourism and doesn't touch on anything political. They take you to markets, night clubs, historical sights, and museums. Whether or not they should talk politics is definitely worth discussing, but as of right now they don't and everyone knows that before they go. But these 5 students, knowing full well what birthright is and their full trip itinerary, still accepted the free trip paid for by birthright donors then complained when they didn't get to see or do the things they came for.

Breaking the Silence has their own tours, they could have gone with them in the first place. Or any of the other trips that state upfront that their mission is fact-finding and not, as the birthright mission statement explicitly states "to strengthen Jewish continuity and provide young Jewish adults with a connection to Israel."

No one lied to them about what they were going to get. They knew what they were doing, this was a planned photo-op just to stir up some facebook chatter. And your "other members opposed to them leaving" was one dipshit on a bus of 45 students.

7/10/2018 2:24:29 AM

dtownral
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that new nation-state law

7/19/2018 9:17:43 AM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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It's symbolism at its worst. Old, white, religiously conservative men trying to grasp tighter to their power status while an increasingly diverse and secularized population poses a threat to that status. It doesn't really do anything legislatively...the bill was mostly values statements which, other than removing Arabic as an official language, already existed within Israel's Basic Laws (their constitution).

Fortunately it will take just a simple majority to overturn any law this regime tries to enact, and the next election is just over a year away. Only 62 out of 120 legislators voted for it, flip 3 of them and it goes away.

7/19/2018 2:45:45 PM

dtownral
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The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.

a bit worse than just a symbolic law

7/19/2018 2:53:34 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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I agree the entire bill is terrible. No action was defined, so there is no new law about action that must be or can't be taken under any penalty. The right wingers were already encouraging establishment and consolidation, so nothing has changed. It would be the same if the current American congress passed a law making English the only official language...it wouldn't make speaking other languages illegal, but it would be a gross misrepresentation of national diversity and values.

HaAretz reported last year that 60% of Israelis see the settlements as either a waste of money or a roadblock to peace (I haven't been able to find a more recent poll). This "law" will not stand as long as the right candidates get the proper support in 2019.

7/19/2018 3:10:09 PM

dtownral
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no it would be like if the US passed a law that encouraged and promoted settlement as a national value at the same time that it was displacing and killing native americans

7/19/2018 3:12:19 PM

dtownral
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D.C.-Based Pro-Israel Group Secretly Ran Misleading Facebook Ads to Target Pro-Palestinian Activist
The well-funded group behind the campaign, the Israel On Campus Coalition, has links to the Israeli government.
https://www.propublica.org/article/dc-pro-israel-group-ran-facebook-ads-to-target-pro-palestinian-activist?utm_content=bufferb3fe1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer
Quote :
"Baime says in the documentary that Israel on Campus Coalition officials “coordinate” or “communicate” with Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, an Israeli government department that has become the hub of the Israeli government’s overt and covert efforts against the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement in the U.S. and around the world. A spokesman for the agency didn’t respond to requests for comment.

In the same hidden camera footage, Ian Hersh, the Israel on Campus Coalition’s director of operations, said that the Ministry of Strategic Affairs participates in the group’s “Operations and Intelligence Brief,” a regular strategy meeting."

another foreign intelligence agency running active measures in the US

9/12/2018 9:30:32 AM

TerdFerguson
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/MAGAZINE-palestinian-kids-long-trek-to-school-beyond-the-settler-with-the-gun-1.6492193

imagine your kids needing a military escort, while walking to school, so that they aren't chased with chains by the racist "locals."

9/24/2018 5:03:48 PM

adultswim
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-poll-shows-support-for-israel-plummeting-among-u-s-liberals-millennials-and-women-1.6594182

Quote :
"Comparisons between the new poll and previous Economist/YouGov polls that posed identical questions also corroborate the notion of steady erosion in the number of Americans who are willing to express strong support for Israel. In 2015, 47 percent of Americans described Israel as “an ally.” In 2017, the number was down to 41 percent. In the most recent poll, the figure is even lower, at 37 percent alone. "


cool

10/26/2018 12:53:22 PM

adultswim
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CNN fired a contributor for delivering a speech to the UN in support of a one-state solution.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/exclusive-cnn-fires-marc-lamont-hill-following-israel-comments/

Why he's right:

https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1068180992911990784

11/29/2018 8:27:39 PM

thegoodlife3
All American
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twitter threads aren’t gonna solve anything

twitter threads need to die

11/29/2018 11:13:22 PM

adultswim
All American
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why? it's much easier than getting someone to read a medium article.

11/29/2018 11:34:32 PM

thegoodlife3
All American
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because they’re self-important and without oversight

Medium pieces aren’t that much better

11/29/2018 11:56:12 PM

adultswim
All American
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So just like every other opinion piece, except it allows people without media backing to have a voice...

11/30/2018 11:28:20 AM

dtownral
All American
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this lawsuit in durham about the statement on officer exchange training is ridiculous

12/7/2018 1:10:28 PM

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