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rwoody
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Quote :
"people are Palestinian citizens and not Israeli citizens, and they vote in Palestinian elections. Israeli citizens of Palestinian ethnicity vote in Israeli elections and not in Palestinian ones."


Those are not apples to apples comparisons

9/18/2019 9:14:43 AM

bdmazur
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Update (but likely not final):

Left - 43
Blue&White - 32
Labor/Gesher - 6
Democratic Union - 5

Right - 55
Likkud - 31
Shas - 9
UTJ - 8
Yamina - 7
Jewish Power - 0

Left but won't join with any Zionist coalition - 13
Arab List - 13

Right but hates Netanyahu and won't join coalition with Orthodox parties (UTJ/Shas) - 9
Yisrael Beiteinu - 9

9/18/2019 10:03:46 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"^^^That's a misleading statistic, since those people are Palestinian citizens and not Israeli citizens, and they vote in Palestinian elections. Israeli citizens of Palestinian ethnicity vote in Israeli elections and not in Palestinian ones. "


Palestine....the territory surrounded by Israel, which controls all of its imports and exports, water, electricity, and doesn't allow people to leave?

Love to paint myself as being stuck between the right and left while defending an apartheid state.

9/18/2019 10:38:21 AM

rwoody
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And does Israel even recognize "Palestinian citizenship"?

9/18/2019 10:50:02 AM

dtownral
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also not misleading since the graphic literally shows that distinction

9/18/2019 10:53:22 AM

bdmazur
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We have to distinguish between Gaza and the West Bank. The PA in the West Bank has their own elections, own police force, and their own passport issues. Israel recognizes Abbas as their leader.

Gaza also holds elections, but Hamas has held power since Israel's disengagement in 2005, and no one has any certainty that the elections were fairly won. Hamas cares far more about the destruction of Israel than the building of Palestine (their charter and ongoing platform/agenda does not hide this fact). Hamas does NOT recognize Abbas as the legitimate Palestinian leader.

The utilities and travel issues are both far more complicated than "Israel controls it."

Palestine is not surrounded by Israel, Egypt controls a border with Gaza and Jordan controls a border with the West Bank. They both restrict the free travel of Palestinians as well, but no one ever includes them as culprits in the the problem. https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/egypt/.premium-gazans-only-way-out-is-through-egypt-but-only-if-they-can-afford-it-1.7172812

This happened just last month, a long and complicated exchange where the PA refused to accept fuel and financial assistance from Israel until Abbas fired all of his advisors: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-fuel-crisis-is-over-palestinians-to-accept-568-million-from-israel-1.7733019 This was a drastic turn from his declaration just a month earlier that he would no longer recognize any previous agreements made with Israel. Hamas will continue to hate him despite his efforts to reconcile.

Quote :
"also not misleading since the graphic literally shows that distinction"


"No voting rights" is the misleading part. They can't vote in this election, but they aren't Israeli citizens. Those who live in PA-controlled territory vote in PA elections.

9/18/2019 11:33:45 AM

daaave
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god you're entirely full of shit aren't you?

9/18/2019 11:35:38 AM

ElGimpy
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Can you explain what's not correct about the above post? I am not disagreeing with you or trying to prove anyone wrong, just trying to understand the situation

9/18/2019 11:46:08 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
""No voting rights" is the misleading part. They can't vote in this election, but they aren't Israeli citizens. Those who live in PA-controlled territory vote in PA elections."


it's not misleading the first line is "2019 Israeli Elections" so it's clear that it is talking about Israeli elections and then in a bold square it says "population under israeli control"

4.75M people live under israeli control with no voting rights

9/18/2019 11:48:13 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"Palestine is not surrounded by Israel, Egypt controls a border with Gaza and Jordan controls a border with the West Bank. They both restrict the free travel of Palestinians as well, but no one ever includes them as culprits in the the problem."

gaza and the west bank are occupied by and under the control of israel, not egypt or jordan

[Edited on September 18, 2019 at 11:57 AM. Reason : also there are parts of palestine surrounded by israel, particularly in the west bank ]

9/18/2019 11:53:56 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"Can you explain what's not correct about the above post? I am not disagreeing with you or trying to prove anyone wrong, just trying to understand the situation"


Yes, bdmazur is a gaslighter that blames apartheid on Palestinians and not the state that holds power over them. dtownral addressed a couple of things, but regarding the power issue: yes, there are complications between the leadership of Israel and Palestine. However, these complications wouldn't exist if Palestinians were allowed the resources to build their own electrical grid and the ability to import the fuel to power it.

[Edited on September 18, 2019 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2019 12:08:44 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"it's not misleading the first line is "2019 Israeli Elections" so it's clear that it is talking about Israeli elections and then in a bold square it says "population under israeli control""


The graphic leaves out the part where they have voting rights in different elections...or rather, they are supposed to, and they would if Hamas would let elections happen.

Quote :
"gaza and the west bank are occupied by and under the control of israel, not egypt or jordan"


Egypt and Jordan control their own borders, and have each have choices about who to let in. (Some crossings need Israeli approval, but not all)

Quote :
"blames apartheid on Palestinians"


I say Hamas is a problem, you accuse me of saying the Palestinian people are the problem. I distinguish between civilian Palestinians and their terrorist regime of a government. Why can't you?

Quote :
"if Palestinians were allowed the resources to build their own electrical grid and the ability to import the fuel to power it."


The PA has their own energy distribution administration, and their energy comes from Israel, Egypt, Jordan, AND from the Palestine Electric Company.


If you want to continue to grossly oversimplify the situation I can't stop you. But context, details, and nuance matter.

9/19/2019 11:32:06 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"The graphic leaves out the part where they have voting rights in different elections...or rather, they are supposed to, and they would if Hamas would let elections happen."


Yeah I voted for governor this year so I don't need to vote for the President. I'm already fully represented.

Quote :
"Egypt and Jordan control their own borders, and have each have choices about who to let in"


Israel doesn't even allow Palestinians to leave by plane or sea. Egypt and Jordan are not the issue here.

Quote :
"The PA has their own energy distribution administration, and their energy comes from Israel, Egypt, Jordan, AND from the Palestine Electric Company."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_State_of_Palestine

Quote :
"The West Bank relies almost entirely on the IEC to satisfy its electricity needs, with around 5% of the territory's electricity provided by Jordan to the Jericho governorate."


Quote :
"Almost all of Gaza's liquid fuel and about half of its electricity are supplied by Israel. "


[Edited on September 19, 2019 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2019 11:48:14 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"Egypt and Jordan control their own borders, and have each have choices about who to let in. (Some crossings need Israeli approval, but not all)"


gaza and the west bank are occupied by and under the control of israel, not egypt or jordan

[Edited on September 18, 2019 at 11:57 AM. Reason : also there are parts of palestine surrounded by israel, particularly in the west bank ]

9/19/2019 11:55:46 AM

daaave
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Here are maps of Gaza and the West Bank that really put it into perspective. They're both kinda old, too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Gaza_closure_December_2012.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

9/19/2019 12:09:24 PM

bdmazur
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Update, 98% of the vote counted:

Left - 44
Blue&White - 33
Labor/Gesher - 6
Democratic Union - 5

Right - 55
Likkud - 31
Shas - 9
UTJ - 8
Yamina - 7
Jewish Power - 0

Left but won't join with any Zionist coalition - 13
Arab List - 13

Right but hates Netanyahu and won't join coalition with Orthodox parties (UTJ/Shas) - 8
Yisrael Beiteinu - 8


The new word going around is an attempt at a "unity government." This is when two or more parties share the majority leader role, and their top members take turns being Prime Minister. Highly doubtful Netanyahu would share power with anyone, nor will Gantz or Lieberman agree to let him be PM again. The only way anything happens to move forward is if Netanyahu steps down as the Likud leader (also not likely to happen).

Netanyahu also has a pre-trial hearing scheduled for October 2. So that may convince the rest of Likud's members to push him out. But who knows.

9/19/2019 4:34:07 PM

0EPII1
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Last time you posted minute by minute results for several days in a row and told us how Israelis were sick of Netanyahu and there was no way he would be PM again, we all know what happened.

So please....

9/19/2019 5:01:13 PM

bdmazur
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^You mean the time 76.6% of the country voted for somebody else? And his coalition only had a one-seat majority which he lost not even halfway into his term?

9/19/2019 5:37:22 PM

bdmazur
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Netanyahu made his deal with the Orthodox parties, so Lieberman won't join him.
Gantz made his deal with the Arab parties, so Lieberman won't join him.

The Israeli president tried to get a meeting together to form a unity government between Gantz and Netanyahu, reports are they both left the meeting infuriated.

The Arab list finally said they would join a coalition against Netanyahu, but then three of their members refused (these are members of the Israeli parliament who don't believe Israel should exist as a country).

Blue&White (33) + Labor-Gesher (6) + Democratic Union (5) + Pro-Coalition Arab List (10) = 54
Likud (32) + Shas (9) + UTJ (7) + Yamina (7) = 55

Yisrael Beiteinu = 8
Anti-Coalition Arab List = 3

Since Netanyahu's right-wing block has one more seat than Gantz does on the left (thanks to those three List members sitting out), the president gave Netanyahu the first chance to form a government.

Without Lieberman neither can get there anyway. And Netanyahu's trial is inching closer.

9/27/2019 2:02:48 PM

0EPII1
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^ Exactly as I said, so please, save your posts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-gantz-coalition.html

The will most likely be PM again.

I hope he gets assassinated soon. Or jailed for corruption. Either will do.

9/27/2019 2:05:03 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"save your posts"


Because there are only so few posts left we can make before TWW dies?

9/27/2019 3:15:01 PM

StTexan
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^I almost posted same article last night, if it is article I am thinking of(didn’t click link)...but what are your thoughts on the gambit Gantz is trying?(article made it sound like he wanted less support so Netanyahu got first stab at it.)

In the article it says Lieberman would consider joining with him(Netanyahu), which I thought previously he said he wouldn’t.

Obviously Gantz is banking on Netanyahu not forming a coalition for a 3rd time in a row, but why? For a new election? Or because he thinks if he has a better chance of forming a coalition if he gets the 2nd chance?

Seems like a million possible outcomes: full of new elections if coalitions aren’t made etc. I guess main question would be(based on the theory from article that Gantz wants to try to make coalition 2nd), is there really that much public distaste for a third election?

Sounds like Gantz is banking Netanyahu fails and people will work with him to avoid a 3rd election...but couldn’t Netanyahu do just that, and beat him to the punch?

9/27/2019 5:22:54 PM

bdmazur
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I don't buy that Gantz intentionally wanted Netanyahu go first. Especially with the trial looming, I think he'd want to control the calendar, wait the full 28 days allowed (and hopefully another 14 day extension) to let the corruption case play out as much as possible.

Netanyahu needs to avoid another election. If he's going to stay PM he needs to get it figured out ASAP. For Gantz, the longer this takes the better.

9/29/2019 12:55:49 PM

bdmazur
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Today's rocket count has hit 200

11/12/2019 3:23:07 PM

rwoody
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How many bullets/bombs/whatever into Gaza?

11/12/2019 3:29:28 PM

daaave
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Let's tell the whole story here

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/778506421/rockets-rain-on-gaza-and-israel-after-airstrike-kills-militant-leader

Quote :
"Still, the Palestinian news agency WAFA reports that the attack killed not only Abu el-Atta and his wife but also at least three other Palestinians. At least 45 other people in Gaza reportedly were injured, according to Gaza health officials, and at least 19 people in Israel were injured in the retaliation."


Quote :
"Around the same time as the Israeli raid on Gaza, Syria's state-run media agency says, Israeli warplanes fired missiles at a residential building in Damascus, where SANA reports that two civilians were killed and 10 others injured. The attack targeting another Islamic Jihad commander, Akram al-Ajouri, reportedly failed to harm him but killed his son and granddaughter."

11/12/2019 3:29:54 PM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/joyce_karam/status/1196494693682597888?s=21

bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe

11/18/2019 1:26:51 PM

horosho
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Yeah clearly democrats speak out against Israeli aggression while fully enabling it and republicans vocally support Israel while fully enabling it.

11/18/2019 1:49:00 PM

UJustWait84
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp/2019/11/21/israeli-prime-minister-benjamin-netanyahu-indicted-on-charges-of-bribery-fraud-breach-of-trust/

oops

11/21/2019 11:39:39 AM

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