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rwoody
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Neither but lord def not the first one

10/27/2023 10:39:29 PM

theDuke866
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whoa, wtf?! Killing hundreds in an airstrike on a refugee camp to kill one guy?

Look, I understand being relentless and aggressive in response to the Hamas attacks. I hope they kill every one of them. I also understand that Hamas is probably deliberately hiding among civilians to put Israel in a bad position...but damn, there's a difference between being savage and being savages.


[Edited on October 31, 2023 at 8:45 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2023 8:39:43 PM

HaLo
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This statement from IDF is quite telling

“I want to emphasize the strike was on a military target of significant military importance to the battlefield and for us to be able to be able to obtain our military objectives. That is why it was struck,” Conricus said.

10/31/2023 10:38:33 PM

The Coz
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And what does it tell us?

10/31/2023 10:59:56 PM

theDuke866
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It sounds like they might've gotten a bunch of terrorists, not just one guy...and maybe there were only dozens killed, not hundreds.

...but still, at the very best, this sounds questionable.

10/31/2023 11:09:07 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?

IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.

Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.

IDF spox: We’re doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths."

https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487

10/31/2023 11:16:41 PM

theDuke866
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I mean...making strikes that will kill civilians is not illegal or even unusual. In fact, I think most people I think most people would be a little surprised at how cold-blooded and procedural and legalistic and calculated it can be.

...and I'm not a JAG, but I don't think it's well-defined at all what is acceptable...but it just seems to me that this might be really pushing it, at best. That's not me as a military officer saying that--it's just that as a regular person, I'm not sure it passes the smell test. I guess we'll learn more as information comes out.

11/1/2023 12:37:36 AM

moron
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"Is it ukraine:russia::israel:hamas, or ukraine:russia::hamas:israel?"


They’re not comparable

11/1/2023 12:55:07 AM

HaLo
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Quote :
" And what does it tell us?
"


IDF views a refugee camp as a military target. Israel will not stop until Gaza is eliminated

11/1/2023 8:05:25 AM

theDuke866
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I don’t think that’s exactly right. They weren’t targeting refugees. They seem to have had a very legitimate target.

It’s the balance they’re willing to tolerate regarding collateral damage that is troubling, and the refugee camp strike isn’t the first inkling of that.

They’re in a bad position. I don’t blame them one bit for ruthlessly going after Hamas. I’d do the same. They don’t really have a choice—they’ve gotta do this, and it’s gonna be bloody to do it in a place as dense as Gaza. That said, while I think it’s overstating it to say they are trying to wipe out Gaza, it sure seems like they don’t give a fuck how many Palestinian civilians they kill.

[Edited on November 1, 2023 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2023 9:21:21 AM

theDuke866
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Also, for what it’s worth, sounds like fatalities on the order of dozens, not hundreds. Unclear whether they just whacked that one commander, or if they whacked him and his 20-terrorist entourage.

11/1/2023 9:35:28 AM

HaLo
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They’re obviously in a bad position. They also wouldn’t mind the extinction of Gaza so they’ll be pretty reluctant to limit civilian impacts since if they make all Palestinians leave they’ll just say “well look at all this empty land that the Palestinians left”

11/1/2023 12:05:05 PM

theDuke866
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I mean I'm sure they wouldn't be terribly sad about it, but I don't think that's what they're actively trying to do.

[Edited on November 1, 2023 at 7:08 PM. Reason : (although I don't think that restraint has ever been their M.O., and certainly isn't right now)]

11/1/2023 7:07:27 PM

HaLo
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There’s no one really actively restraining them right now so I think they’ll go as far to the line as they can.

11/1/2023 9:32:02 PM

HaLo
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-forced-gaza-egypt-israel-proposal-outrage-rcna122934

11/2/2023 10:59:48 PM

rwoody
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11/10/2023 4:02:57 PM

emnsk
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It's bad, but it's also good.

edit-
You need the government to carry on certain activities that may be temporarily opposed. which is why we have the senate at all too.

I guess it is valuable to see what the people are saying, but I don't really like it as an indicator, cause it can change with the wind (ie- the news cycles).

[Edited on November 10, 2023 at 4:54 PM. Reason : -]

11/10/2023 4:42:17 PM

rwoody
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That's a sick way to lock at this, I guess

[Edited on November 11, 2023 at 9:17 AM. Reason : E]

11/11/2023 9:16:51 AM

emnsk
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Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war? wasn't it?

I'd like a ceasefire too, and I think it's clear that my comment was on the type of statistic than what it was actually about.

Practically, Israel is gonna take Gaza in its entirety, most probably.

11/11/2023 11:49:25 AM

Cabbage
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Quote :
"Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war?"


Everyone? Seriously? That's a pretty fucking big exaggeration you got there. In fact, it's such a big exaggeration that it's currently in divorce court with reality.

11/11/2023 2:54:47 PM

Bullet
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"Was also pretty sick when everyone supported the Iraq war? wasn't it?"


What the hell are you talking about? I thought you were a college student and weren't even around during the Iraq war?


It's pretty infuriating to see how often people/organizations/media is being called "anti-semitic"... all it takes is a statement/story that doesn't 100% support the State of Israel, and bam, you're automatically "Anti-semitic". It's so dumb.

11/16/2023 10:47:48 AM

synapse
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lolololol this is great

11/16/2023 12:27:41 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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I feel like there are antisemitic individuals within the pro-Palestinian movement that hurt the movement's overall image.

I also feel like there are pro-Israeli advocates who mislabel pro-Palestinian messaging as antisemitic, which negatively impacts the accurate labeling of other antisemitic language.

For example, I've seen people suggest that the phrase, "Free Palestine," is antisemitic. There are surely some antisemitic people chanting this phrase, but I don't intrinsically view it in and of itself as an antisemitic sentiment.

Likewise, I can see how Israelis can view the phrase, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," as a call for the eradication of Jews from Palestine; however, this is because I've seen individuals chanting this phrase also calling for the eradication of Jews from Palestine.

The phrase itself seems innocuous enough; however, it only takes a few individuals to create a negative association between a phrase and its meaning.

And this isn't one-sided, either; I've seen plenty of advocates for Israel calling for the eradication of all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank.

It's an ugly situation on all sides, which hopefully deescalates before it gets any worse.

11/16/2023 2:18:05 PM

Bullet
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For example, on NPR's facebook page, they'll have a story about the conflic, basically stating facts about what's happening, but because they're not praising Israel and condemning Hamas, there's literally dozens of people posting that NPR is anti-Semitic. which is just dumb.

11/16/2023 3:33:00 PM

thegoodlife3
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the conflation of being in support of Palestine being labeled as pro-Hamas is quite dangerous

11/16/2023 6:24:13 PM

The Coz
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Right. Someone might think you support Palestine when all you intended to do was be pro-Hamas.

11/16/2023 8:53:22 PM

UJustWait84
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I'm anti-Hamas, but pro-nobody.

11/17/2023 1:34:48 PM

Bullet
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I'm pro innocent-civilians-not-suffering-and-being-murdered

11/17/2023 1:58:47 PM

UJustWait84
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So anti-Israel and anti-Palestine? God, you're a monster.

11/17/2023 3:32:45 PM

Bullet
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Another Example:

Quote :
"Melissa Barrera Cut from Next “Scream” Sequel Due to Her Social Media Posts About Israel-Hamas

...

"Spyglass’ stance is unequivocally clear: We have zero tolerance for antisemitism or the incitement of hate in any form, including false references to genocide, ethnic cleansing, Holocaust distortion or anything that flagrantly crosses the line into hate speech," Spyglass, the studio behind Scream VII, said in a statement to PEOPLE."


What did she say that was so "antisemetic"?

Quote :
"“I have been actively looking for videos and information about the Palestinian side for the last 2 weeks or so, following accounts etc. Why? Because Western media only shows the other side. Why they do that, I will let you deduce for yourself.”"


I don't know, maybe she had other posts that were more "extreme".

11/22/2023 10:13:08 AM

Bullet
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she also said this

Quote :
"Barrera’s Instagram stories included one that said, “Gaza is currently being treated like a concentration camp,” and another reading, “Cornering everyone together, with no where to go, no electricity no water … People have learnt nothing from our histories. And just like our histories, people are still silently watching it all happen. THIS IS GENOCIDE & ETHNIC CLEANSING.”"

11/22/2023 3:05:44 PM

StTexan
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^pretty open and shut imo

11/22/2023 10:24:35 PM

aaronburro
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On the one hand, it's a bit melodramatic to claim that what's going on in Gaza is "genocide" or even ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans, it could do a lot better than 15k over 50ish days in an area that densely packed. Could they be more careful? Probably. Do they honestly care? Not a bit. But genocide? That's preposterous in the same way that "George Bush is a fascist" is: it's little more than a pejorative thrown around by folks whose minds are too small to comprehend even the slightest bit of nuance.

On the other hand, Israel's actions in the West Bank are a textbook case of ethnic cleansing, by any reasonable definition. It's telling that most of these progressive nuts can't even begin to successfully articulate this point, given how plainly true it is.

11/22/2023 11:56:31 PM

thegoodlife3
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ok, Rick James

11/23/2023 11:02:54 AM

The Coz
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Genocide is a helluva drug!

11/23/2023 11:34:37 AM

PaulISdead
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Bully victim cycle continues

11/25/2023 12:10:09 PM

moron
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Biden freed some of the hostages

11/27/2023 10:51:25 PM

The Coz
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He's too old to have done anything. I assume it was actually President Trump and Jared Kushner working the back channels who really got it done while Biden was taking a nap.

11/28/2023 6:02:12 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"On the one hand, it's a bit melodramatic to claim that what's going on in Gaza is "genocide" or even ethnic cleansing. If Israel wanted to kill Gazans, it could do a lot better than 15k over 50ish days in an area that densely packed."


The definition of "genocide" is squishy enough that you can make the case for it. I don't think a genocide is taking place, but it's not outside the realm of rational discussion to claim otherwise. I think the case for ethnic cleansing in Gaza (and the West Bank) is much stronger. Most of all, though, I don't think there's a lot of value in parsing out exactly which kind of shittery is being perpetrated by the Israeli government.

It should go without saying that efficiency has nothing to do with the definition of genocide.

11/28/2023 3:54:19 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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There seems to be a consistent theme here.

Egypt warned Israel of Hamas attack days earlier, senior US politician says

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/12/israel-hamas-war-egypt-warned-foreign-affairs-gaza


Intelligence commanders ignored soldiers’ warnings Hamas was simulating major invasion

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/intelligence-commanders-ignored-soldiers-warnings-hamas-was-simulating-major-invasion-reports/


Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

[Edited on November 30, 2023 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ]

11/30/2023 9:25:08 PM

StTexan
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Bibi lied, people died

11/30/2023 10:28:48 PM

moron
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Bibis kristelnacht

12/1/2023 11:01:03 PM

Bullet
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Jeeeez

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/06/1217368171/gazan-journalist-says-over-20-members-of-his-family-were-killed-in-airstrike

Quote :
"Alnaouq never imagined an Israeli airstrike would hit his family home in South Gaza because Israel had been asking people to evacuate to the area. Alnaouq said his father, two brothers, three sisters, and 14 nieces and nephews were killed on October 22nd. The only two who survived were his sister-in-law and nephew. His brother, who was next to them on the same bed, was killed.
"

12/6/2023 4:59:10 PM

theDuke866
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Just to maintain some balance here with a couple of good reads….

Don’t construe this as lack of concern for the plight of innocent Palestinians or lack of concern with Israeli heavyhandedness

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-media-press-prusher?cid=ios_app

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-violence-hamas-israel-what-we-know-intl?cid=ios_app

12/7/2023 10:25:10 PM

Bullet
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/15/middleeast/israeli-soldiers-burningfood-gaza-intl/index.html

12/15/2023 1:20:27 PM

rwoody
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Killed their own hostages while they were holding white flags bc they "looked like terrorists" aka civilians

12/16/2023 8:25:07 AM

The Coz
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Oops!

12/16/2023 11:52:37 AM

StTexan
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Whoopsy-daisy

12/16/2023 11:57:49 AM

rwoody
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Quote :
"NEW: Weeks before Israel’s military raided al-Shifa Hospital, it built a public case it was central to Hamas. A WaPo examination finds those claims fall short. 1/ @leloveluck, @evanhill, @JHBaran, Jarret Ley and me"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

12/21/2023 9:17:08 PM

The Coz
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It's like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Aluminum tubes!

12/21/2023 9:26:22 PM

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