Our money would be better spent destroying S.A. than on ineffective ISIS airstrikes. Media tide has really turned against S.A. in recent days as well, and as you know, the media decides who we bomb.

10/12/2014 2:06:10 PM

Just start buying as little of their oil as possible. They'll implode without massive oil revenues eventually.

10/12/2014 3:33:40 PM

Until we start building nuclear plants, we're beholden to Saudi Arabia

10/12/2014 3:50:53 PM

We currently produce as much petroleum as SA, they are becoming nobodies and we need to hasten that process. We are goin to be buying oil from SA for many more years, but to say we are beholden to them gives them way to strong of a position.

10/12/2014 4:45:34 PM

Yeah, cause we don't have enough issues with our perception amongst the populations of the muslim world.

10/12/2014 5:52:53 PM

^^ their activities control world oil prices and shipping and buying/selling patterns.

If we had more nuclear plants, transition to EVs for most ground transportation would actually be feasible, make oil market fluctuations less meaningful, and generally be better for the environment.

10/12/2014 6:02:48 PM

But nuke plants are bad for the environment, everyone "knows" that!

10/12/2014 6:04:58 PM

It seems pretty obvious our anti-nuke policies have been guided by coal and oil lobbyists.

These people just stoke nuclear fears as a cover.

10/12/2014 6:14:41 PM

The anti-nuclear crowd really is a very interesting "baptists and bootleggers" situation.

10/12/2014 6:40:42 PM

Ok ok ok, just to back up for a second. Before we get into the best way to divest from SA and how long that might take, I think it's best to take a step back and look at, pragmatically, how unlikely that process is. We will find more agreement there, I think, and in light of our political system we need to take a long look at the baby steps first.

The SA government, and ARAMCO lobby the US government and various think tanks somewhere on the order of tens of millions per year. We don't really know since our disclosure laws are so shitty. So we have these foreigners funding US hating extremists but also paying our politicians to turn a blind eye. Just look at Biden, who called out several of the gulf Arab states in a speech for funding jihadists, and then had to turn around and apologize.......for telling a well known and verifiable truth. - so many of "our congresspersons" were outraged. Thank you shitty campaign finance and other associated laws/judicial rulings. This is really where we need to start IMO, by recognizing how many of our congress folk will go to the mat to defend SA, simply because of their financial support.

[Edited on October 12, 2014 at 8:59 PM. Reason : One should also be noting how hard SA has lobbied us to bomb ISIS while simultaneously funding ISIS]

10/12/2014 8:50:33 PM

I think it's unlikely, but honestly, I didn't see the American people making the shift on gay marriage so quickly. In just a few years, that issue gained majority support, and a few court battles later, and more than half the states have equality.

Marijuana legalization is not far behind. I think under the right set of circumstances, in a few years, it would be possible to see American politicians speaking out against SA.

A few more blocks need to be in place... We need to get serious about climate change, we need to start thinking about sustainability, we need a real policy on Iraq (which may be forming now it seems), but I don't view it as hopeless. Hillary strikes me as too status-quo, but she's also a woman, so that's some incentive for her to speak out.

10/12/2014 10:37:57 PM

I envy your optimistic ideology about politicians. I think it's foolish, but I envy it.

10/12/2014 11:30:21 PM

Yea, I don't think it's hopeless, but SA just has ALOT of friends in high places in the US.


Another interesting perspective is to look at our relations with countries like Venezuela and Iran. While they only produce something like 1/3 of SA's oil production respectively (some think their potential is much higher),we treat them like absolute shit and generally have bad relations with them for various reasons (some legit, some not). But the absolute worst offense these countries have committed, within the last 2 decades, seems minor compared to the gulf Arab states' support for terrorism.

It's mind boggling

[Edited on October 13, 2014 at 10:35 AM. Reason : Various Saudis have committed millions to the Clinton foundation, she ain't gonna do shit]

10/13/2014 10:33:29 AM

Quote :

"It seems pretty obvious our anti-nuke policies have been guided by coal and oil lobbyists."

Was that sarcasm? The far left environmentalists hate nuclear power with a passion.

10/13/2014 3:49:23 PM

I'd think they hate oil and coal more.

10/13/2014 3:51:50 PM

but not by much

10/13/2014 3:56:41 PM

^^^ but who cares about far left environmentalists? They have almost no power.

I would think NIMBY fears from the general public outweigh the influence of any far left environmentalists.

10/13/2014 4:42:05 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with this, but they behave no worse than any multinational corporation protecting it's financial interests. They are like the Vatican before Europe realized letting Popes pick your Kings was fucking stupid.

10/13/2014 4:42:56 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/14/emails-show-cozy-ties-between-epa-environmental-group-over-power-plant-rules/

10/14/2014 2:35:51 PM

Are you posting that for sarcasm or seriousness? It isn't like you to rely on Fox for news.

10/14/2014 3:21:05 PM

ha, just posting it to be posting it since it was somewhat relevant to the discussion about environmentalists being against coal vs. nuclear (although, of course, it isn't talking about nuclear)

10/14/2014 3:29:07 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

10/14/2014 6:04:47 PM

Another reason to invade Saudi Arabia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liP8uIcUAhI

10/14/2014 7:46:23 PM

bttt they're getting the bomb

5/18/2015 11:41:14 AM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/04/16/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-warns-ofeconomic-fallout-if-congress-passes-9-11-bill.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

Wow oh wow. I guess our congress is more interested in this topic than i thought. This is further than I ever thought this issue would get. Now SA threatens us, so it's gotta be pretty damning. This needs to be inserted into the presidential race immediately.

4/16/2016 12:00:37 PM

^ http://www.arabnews.com/news/cia-chief-cites-%E2%80%98very-strong%E2%80%99-ties-ksa

Quote :

"WASHINGTON/JEDDAH: The US congressional inquiry into 9/11 has cleared Saudi Arabia of suspicions about possible links with the Al-Qaeda, the CIA chief said on Monday. CIA Director John Brennan made this revelation in an interview with NBC’s “Meet the Press”, during which he talked about the 9/11 Commission’s inquiry. He said a 28-page secret chapter of the commission’s report contained preliminary information about possible Saudi links to the attackers, but these were “uncorroborated and unvetted.” Brennan said the Commission made “a very clear judgment” that there was no evidence indicating “the Saudi government as an institution or Saudi officials individually” financially backed Al-Qaeda. To point to Saudi involvement would be “very, very inaccurate,” he said. Brennan said the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia remains “very strong.”"

AND AND AND


http://www.arabnews.com/news/riyadh-911-bill-would-erode-investor-confidence

Quote :

"Foreign Minister Adel Al-Jubeir denied that Saudi Arabia had “threatened” to withdraw investment from its close ally. The New York Times reported last month that the Saudi government had threatened to sell up to $750 billion worth of American assets should the US Congress pass a bill that would take away immunity from foreign governments in cases arising from a “terrorist attack that kills an American on American soil.” “We say a law like this would cause an erosion of investor confidence. But then to kind of say, ‘My God the Saudis are threatening us’ — ridiculous,” Al-Jubeir said. “We don’t use monetary policy and we don’t use energy policy and we don’t use economic policy for political purposes. When we invest, we invest as investors. When we sell oil, we sell oil as traders.” + Meanwhile, CIA Director John Brennan said a secret section of the 9/11 Commission Report that contains “uncorroborated, unvetted” information should not be released. He voiced support for keeping the “28 pages” in the 2004 text from the public domain for fear of fueling unfounded rumors. He maintained the inquiry into 9/11 “came out with a very clear judgment that there was no evidence that the Saudi government as an institution, or Saudi officials or individuals, had provided financial support to Al-Qaeda."

I am no fan of Saudi Arabia; I have an intense dislike of the country which I have made public elsewhere (more than one site) on the internet after leaving from there permanently.

However, I hate lies, rumors, and hoaxes even more. Truth is truth, even if it elevates your enemies or brings down your family. Same with lies.

It is no secret that there is an overactive well-oiled anti-Saudi propaganda machinery in many quarters of the world. When the propaganda is true, I will stand and have stood by it, but when it is false, I will expose it if I come to know of it.

5/4/2016 1:32:30 AM

Sorry if I take public statements from the SA foreign minister and the CIA director with a grain of salt, just weeks after Obama and King Whoever met in private over this exact issue, making sure they get their story straight. In many circles, SA officials (maybe not in an official capacity) assisting hi-jackers is pretty much a given, this isn't just some baseless rumor.

Reading their full quotes:

Ol' Adel Al-Jubeir

Quote :

" “We don’t use monetary policy and we don’t use energy policy and we don’t use economic policy for political purposes. When we invest, we invest as investors. When we sell oil, we sell oil as traders.”"

Riiiiggggghhhhhttttttt. How stupid do they think we are?


From the full Brennan quote after being pushed by Chuck Todd:

Quote :

" "I think theres a combination of things that are accurate and inaccurate,""

Oh ok. So there is some truth in there. If some of it is so inaccurate then release the info that shows it as such, this isn't complicated.

5/4/2016 6:35:05 AM

^ I want it to be released too, if there is nothing incriminatory.

Quote :

"In many circles, SA officials (maybe not in an official capacity) assisting hi-jackers is pretty much a given"

Where is this coming from? Evidence is the... unreleased 28 pages? But we don't know what those pages say.

5/4/2016 7:21:51 AM

some of the evidence IS in the realm of conspiracy theories, but these few confirmed details are enough to raise my eyebrows.

Money was wired through the UAE to the 9/11 hi-jackers, and that money was thought to originated in KSA. I don't know the details here on the tracking of the monies, but it fits the KSA's profile of exporting cash to al-qaeda, Osama, ISIS, and other groups. The government and Royal family have been involved in some extremism export, but wouldn't necessarily be tied to the 9/11 hi-jackers.

Omar Al- Bayoumi over in California, basically acting as a handler for several of the hi-jackers. Has been on and off the KSA government payroll for years. Riggs bank dropped Prince Bandar, a KSA ambassador in DC, as a client because it was exposed how much money he had sent to Al-Bayoumi.

FBI Document 17 recently released. A hi-jacker had KSA embassy folders with his flight certificate, business cards of KSA officials at the embassy found on an hi-jacker accomplice, KSA embassy person allegedly met with a hi-jacker

That Al-Haijji cat with the mansion down in S. Florida is an advisor for the royal family and the FBI has confirmed that several hi-jackers visited his home on multiple occasions. He and his family left the country 2 weeks before 9/11.

By in some circles, I basically meant the armchair foreign policy/intelligence community that follows Former Senator Bob Graham, and several other congress folk, who after gaining access to the classified documents, both hint/leak at connections to KSA and write bills that would allow 9/11 victim families to sue KSA - seems like a link must be there.

None of this is necessarily damning, and I leave open the possibility that all of the links are coincidental or a product of the KSA exporting religious extremism that al-qaeda just happened to capitalize on. But with so many links it becomes a trend. Add to that, I'd like to see our relationship with KSA be vastly different and, well, I want to see whats in those pages.

5/5/2016 9:21:35 PM

http://www.wral.com/file-17-is-glimpse-into-still-secret-28-pages-about-9-11/15823398/

A much better (and even handed) run down of what I posted above (less the S. Florida guy)

7/2/2016 12:07:31 PM

RELEASED!!!!

http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/declasspart4.pdf

And **gasp** the sky didn't fall (not yet anyways)

7/15/2016 3:50:15 PM

Ooh, I know what I am doing tonight, reading that report!

7/15/2016 7:22:21 PM

How convenient for a military coup in Turkey to distract the media away from this release.

I'm only about a third of the way through the report, but it's more damning towards the Saudi government than I gave it credit for. They name several Saudi intelligence officials and embassy personnel that make the attack seem very well organized. There were also test runs on the attacks two years prior to them occurring.

7/15/2016 7:50:26 PM

Yea I've only skimmed it yesterday. Somethings I had not heard, some interesting redactions, but as I said earlier a lot of it is still pretty circumstantial. The major question being, yes most of these guys were aiding terrorists, and most of them had some type of link to the KSA government, but does that mean the KSA government had direct knowledge of the aid they were giving? The problem I have with the whole episode is that there Is absolutely so much circumstantial evidence that it basically becomes a very suggestive trend, more than enough to raise my eyebrows.


In the end I think the US response should be the same (although it would have been nice to respond a decade ago). Either KSA participates at some level in terrorism or it harbors a crap ton of terrorists (who also have resources). We need to demand they do something about it and slowly withdraw all the military help we've given through the years.

[Edited on July 16, 2016 at 7:57 AM. Reason : ^im looking for a time stamp of when it was released, I think it was hours before the turk news]

7/16/2016 7:56:29 AM

Very good read, written by a 9-11 widow:

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/07/17/long-hidden-saudi-911-trail

I was not aware of the two FBI and CIA reports, nor the 80,000 documents under review by a FL judge, documents that no US or Saudi official wants released.

The 28 comments are very interesting too. I recommend reading them all. I hope we will know the truth one day, even if it is several decades later.

7/17/2016 11:00:05 PM

the comments are truthers who believe the buildings were a controlled demolition

7/18/2016 8:12:33 AM

why couldn't it be both a terrorist attach AND a controlled demo? perhaps the demo was a contingency to ensure sensitive materials got destroyed in the event of an attack on the bldgs.

7/18/2016 12:03:08 PM

This is a good and must read by every American

http://anonhq.com/bombshell-28-pages-prove-us-ignored-saudi-911-ties-us-ally

7/20/2016 10:23:08 AM

WUT???

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/10/us/politics/house-911-victims-saudi-arabia.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

Congress has officially put the bill that allows 9/11 victims to sue state sponsors of terrorism on Obama's desk (he's likely to veto).

An absolute mind boggling moment of bipartisanship! like I can't fathom why this is where congress came together (for the most part) to pass this. Hell, the media coverage was even kinda mediocre on it.

Im very interested to see if Obama retreats on this (I kinda doubt it, but he is so susceptible to political areas staked out as what the belt line sees as bipartisanship, there is still a chance he caves. Also interested to see what the media continues to do with this).

9/9/2016 9:42:26 PM

It is a pointless exercise. Who is going to make Saudi Arabia actually pay up?

9/10/2016 9:22:23 AM

So when can the millions of dead civilians in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Pakistan sue the US government for trillions of dollars?

Oh wait, that's just the recent past... what about the millions dead in South East Asia and Latin America?

9/10/2016 12:07:35 PM

Obama's in a tough spot since it looks like Congress could override a veto anyway. His best bet is probably to just sign it while expressing his objections to it.

9/10/2016 2:04:31 PM

^^^im assuming US courts could put a lien on KSA owned assets in America, including their 10s of billions in US treasuries.

^^theyre welcome to sue the US and seize American assets. The resulting US disengagement from this countries, both public and private, I think would probably ultimately a worse outcome.

^like I said, he is so susceptible to what's "bipartisan" at any given moment. He's also heavily influenced by his approval rating and this is a popular bill. i think you're right, he'll cave.

9/10/2016 2:41:42 PM

did we ever catch the bastards who did 9/11 or what?

9/12/2016 3:40:09 PM

Idiots.

They overrode Obama's veto, but now after realizing the potential fallout, they are blaming Obama

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/congress-now-blaming-obama-for-embarrassing-override-of-his-veto_us_57edacd1e4b082aad9ba8595

10/1/2016 11:09:53 AM

So uh, KSA chopped up a dissident in their Turkish consulate and shipped his body out in pieces?

Wow.

10/9/2018 8:20:03 PM

ALLEGEDLY

10/9/2018 8:22:35 PM

I am following this very closely. Here is the latest I came across, and it is pretty horrifying:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/10/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-disappearance-investigation-intl/index.html

The worst:

Quote :

"In the latest developments on Wednesday, Turkish security officials concluded that the "highest levels of the royal court" in Saudi Arabia ordered the assassination of Khashoggi, according to a senior official cited by The New York Times. Turkish officials have said that a 15-person team flew into Saudi Arabia on the day Khashoggi entered the consulate. Some arrived on two private planes; aviation data analyzed by CNN backs up evidence of the planes' arrival in Istanbul. The official quoted by the New York Times described the operation as "quick and complex," and that Khashoggi was killed two hours of his arrival at the consulate. The agents "dismembered his body with a bone saw they brought for the purpose," the official told The New York Times. "It's like Pulp Fiction," he added."

Highly incriminating if true:

Quote :

"The Washington Post -- for which Khashoggi wrote critical columns-- said US intelligence intercepted communications of Saudi officials discussing a plan to capture the journalist. Citing a person familiar with the information, tha Post said the Saudis wanted to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia and lay hands on him there."

Quote :

"On Tuesday, The Guardian newspaper reported that the consulate's Turkish staff were told to take a day off the day Khashoggi disappeared."

Quote :

"It also reported that Turkish investigators believe security footage from inside the consulate was removed and taken back to Saudi Arabia on a private jet."

How convenient:

Quote :

"During a tour of the six-story consulate given to journalists on Saturday, Saudi Consul General Mohammad al-Otaibi told Reuters that while the consulate was equipped with cameras, they did not record footage of Khashoggi entering or leaving the building."

The timing of the flights arriving is extremely suspicious. The fact that one flight arrived well before him on the same day indicates he was likely under surveillance and they knew he would be coming in very soon. Also the fact that the second one arrived a few hours after he entered, coupled with the fact that they both left later the same day. In fact, the second flight departed ONE HOUR after it arrived. What kind of officials come to a foreign country for an hour???

Quote :

"Timeline of Khashoggi's disappearance Tuesday, October 2 3:00 a.m.: One flight arrives in Istanbul from Riyadh 1:14 p.m.: Khashoggi arrives at the consulate 5:00 p.m.: Another flight arrives in Istanbul from Riyadh 6:00 p.m.: Second flight departs Istanbul for Cairo, en route to Riyadh 11:00 p.m.: First flight departs Istanbul for Riyadh Wednesday, October 3 Turkish officials first report Khashoggi is missing"

Possibilities:

- They killed him inside and are still hiding the body inside trying to figure out how to dispose it off
- They killed him inside and took the remains to SA
- They abducted him alive to SA
- They are holding him alive inside (extremely unlikely, unless they are going to resort to one of the options above, as they can't produce him alive anymore since they are claiming he left the building)

Considering that he never left the building -- his fiancee waited outside till 1 am -- those are the ONLY possibilities.

10/10/2018 1:21:39 PM

apparently there are audio recordings of his death and dismemberment, fuck

10/12/2018 11:39:25 AM

Bolton out there furiously trying to blame Iran.

10/12/2018 12:14:09 PM