It's like 2016 never even happened.


Or that 2008 didn't (even falsely) energize the left.


It's not like you have to go back far in history to show that a popular left-leaning and anti-establishment message resonates well with voters.

10/22/2018 6:20:52 PM

You guys don't get to have it both ways. "Obama wasn't really on the left, he was just a dumb centrist! But he won because he was leftist! Kind of!"

You show me your popular candidate. I've been very clear that the right candidate could sell more radical ideas, but you don't have that candidate.

10/22/2018 9:50:02 PM

Obama won because he pretended to be a populist. Trump won because he pretended to be a populist.

Bernie is a genuine populist and would have won if the Democrats didn't hamstring him. We need someone like him.

10/22/2018 9:56:40 PM

this is like trying to teach a toddler

10/23/2018 8:33:28 AM

Obama was not a populist and did not really pretend to be. He was and remains a left-wing politician who subordinated part of his politics to the pragmatic requirements of governing at the time.

Trump is a populist; he's not pretending. He's just your kind of populist; you both think its "the people" vs. "the elite," you just define the elites differently.

10/23/2018 9:24:46 AM

Quote :

"Obama was not a populist and did not really pretend to be."

He did, both times he ran. During office, not so much.

Quote :

"Trump is a populist; he's not pretending. He's just your kind of populist; you both think its "the people" vs. "the elite," you just define the elites differently."

haha how the hell is Trump a populist? Populism is a genuine concern for the working class, not playing to immigration fears and racism. He's a nationalist.

10/23/2018 10:42:54 AM

Neither of them is William Jennings Bryan, so this is a silly pissing contest

10/23/2018 10:56:26 AM

Ohhhhh, so the problem is that you don't know what "populism" means.

Before you post, make sure you've studied your vocab words. This is some amateur-hour shit, even from you lot.

Quote :

"In political science, populism is the idea that society is separated into two groups at odds with one another - "the pure people" and "the corrupt elite", according to Cas Mudde, author of Populism: A Very Short Introduction."

Quote :

"In his book The Global Rise of Populism, Dr Moffitt argues that there are other traits associated with the typical populist leader. One is "bad manners", or behaving in a way that's not typical of politicians - a tactic employed by President Trump and the Philippines' President Duterte. The other, he says, is "perpetuating a state of crisis" - and always seeming to be on the offensive. "A populist leader who gets into power is 'forced' to be in a permanent campaign to convince his people that he is not establishment - and never will be," according to Prof Nadia Urbinati from Columbia University. She argues that populist content is "made of negatives" - whether it is anti-politics, anti-intellectualism, or anti-elite. Here lies one of the populism's strengths - it is versatile."

Quote :

"The word “populist,” a very old part of the political vocabulary, has lately had a new lease on life. It’s generally used to describe movements of “the people” against “the elite,” whether that takes the form of the French Revolution or a revolt of American farmers. "

I could go on. You'll notice that none of these definitions talk about the "working class." All of them do, however, describe Donald Trump pretty fucking well. The man is a populist, and he's a nationalist, because the two aren't mutually exclusive. Indeed, they often go hand-in-hand, as evidenced by the concept of "national populism:"

Quote :

"Across the West, there is a rising tide of people who feel excluded, alienated from mainstream politics, and increasingly hostile towards minorities, immigrants and neo-liberal economics. Many of these voters are turning to national populist movements, which have begun to change the face of Western liberal democracy, from the United States to France, Austria to the UK."

10/23/2018 11:02:29 AM

You could also call Hugo Chazez a populist too, but see how dumb it gets when you lump Obama and Trump and Sara Palin in with him?

In 2018, and especially in today's context, it means a very, very different idea than than Populism (aka Bryan, et al)

[Edited on October 23, 2018 at 11:13 AM. Reason : if you keep saying a word over and over and over and over again it loses its meaning]

10/23/2018 11:12:22 AM

Trump: I'm a nationalist

10/23/2018 11:18:06 AM

the two terms aren't mutually exclusive

this is dumb

10/23/2018 11:18:49 AM

Do we really need to nitpick over the definition of populism? Thought it was pretty clear what I meant by it.

Trump and Obama both pandered to the working class. It's clear what people want.

10/23/2018 11:43:45 AM

No, Hillary Clinton won more votes than Trump and she's anything but a populist.

10/23/2018 11:51:45 AM

Quote :

"No, Hillary Clinton won more votes than Trump and she's anything but a populist."

Because Trump is a revolting piece of garbage. Conceding literally anything to Bernie's populist movement would have allowed her to win.

10/23/2018 11:54:15 AM

Who is nitpicking? You were saying a thing that was out and out wrong. How are we going to argue an issue if you're using different definitions from everyone else?

Quote :

"You could also call Hugo Chazez a populist too, but see how dumb it gets when you lump Obama and Trump and Sara Palin in with him? In 2018, and especially in today's context, it means a very, very different idea than than Populism (aka Bryan, et al)"

Hugo Chavez WAS a populist. Populism doesn't imply Leftist or far-Right politics. Nobody gives a shit about Bryan, quit bringing him up; regardless of his century-old campaigns, populism still exists, still has meaning, still is bad.

Donald Trump didn't pander to "the working class," a group which includes plenty of minorities he ignored or agitated against. He pandered to "the real Americans," and portrayed the enemy as a Liberal/media/academia elite that wanted to replace them with gays, Muslims, and Mexicans. That's what he did, what he is doing, what we have to not only defeat but soundly and lastingly repudiate, not what we have to sustain with different trappings.

This is what the left is at risk of doing every time it builds a narrative of "moneyed interests vs. the working man." Rich people can be Americans, too. They're not the enemy, they can and should be partners. Some will play dirty, and should be punished just like everybody else; but they're not the elite for.

10/23/2018 11:56:36 AM

...and that's how you lose

10/23/2018 11:58:47 AM

Unless we abolish the Electoral College, the GOP is going to continue winning presidential elections far more often than it should. We’ve had chances to get rid of it, but it’s too late now. The GOP is an expert at gerrymandering and making it hard for brown people to vote. And now that a Caravan is-a-coming to CA, I’m strongly considering a move to New Zealand. You were warned.

10/23/2018 12:03:28 PM

How are we getting into NZ?

10/23/2018 12:05:06 PM

Overstaying a visa, duh.

10/23/2018 12:08:30 PM

Ha. It doesn’t seem to difficult to get a work visa.

10/23/2018 12:12:55 PM

10/23/2018 12:13:53 PM

https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-42-populism-the-medias-favorite-catch-all-smear-for-the-left

10/23/2018 12:40:35 PM

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1054831828517949440

10/23/2018 7:38:29 PM

Quote :

"conservatives still exist - and they won't ever vote for democrats that's why you need a progressive message that will grow the democratic base and energize otherwise apathetic people to get out and vote trying to win by staying centrist to appease conservatives is how the democrats have been losing"

I have 3 centrist/business-wing Dems and 1 Republican bubbled in on my absentee ballot (US Sen, US Rep, and CFO), 1 Republican (Sec of Agri), and abstained from 2 (Gov and AG). Still need to research state, local, and judge elections.

Quote :

"Personally I don’t understand why Republicans keep shitting on immigrants from Mexico and Central America. It’s a massive, catholic group of voters who are very conservative. In a generation or two they will integrate with the rest of the poor republican voters."

Hmmm, it's like there's a demographic difference that sets them apart, but I just can't put my finger on it.

The people of walmart are...not data-driven strategic thinkers.

...and the data-driven strategic thinkers are going for near-term wins with cheap gimmicks, even if it's ruinous in the longer term, because their incentives are to put Ws on the board for those who are paying them to win today's election.

Quote :

"maybe we'll have a constitutional amendment to disband the electoral college before 2020"

yeah, i used to see both sides of that one...but if it was totally useless in 2016, it will never earn its keep. I'm normally open to things that make the system less of a direct democracy, because people are stupid, but it's pretty tough to defend the EC at this point.

Quote :

"Because they're brown."

Ahh, THAT'S it! I just couldn't quite put my finger on it.

Quote :

"Explain what I'm missing. Explain how a hyped-up base is going to outnumber the right + the middle."

Well...it's not like the right has been courting the middle.

Quote :

"Lol. This thread is a miniature version of why Trump is going to win in 2020. IBT you guys turn Grumpy back to Trump for berating him for not being left enough."

yep. i mean, maybe he won't ,but if he does, this is how.

If the Dems go full-retard, I hope he does win.






OK, now that I've rinsed my mouth out...I'll never vote for him, no matter who the Dems run, but if they go hard left, I'd rather at least (a) stomp the left-wing demon back into the cage. The right-wing one is already out. (b) have a calamitously terrible President limited to 1 more term instead of 2...and (c) If we must have a President overflowing with fucking awful policy ideas, at least let's have him be so goddamned incompetent that he can't push much of it through, particularly via the relative permanence of legislation.

10/23/2018 9:50:22 PM

What a fucking train wreck of a thread.

The only good news here is UJustWait84 might be relocating to New Zealand.

[Edited on October 23, 2018 at 10:46 PM. Reason : Hopefully adultswim will follow his lead.]

10/23/2018 10:45:44 PM

Quote :

"Populism is a genuine concern for the working class"

Is fucking hilarious btw

followed by "Do we really need to nitpick over the definition of populism? " after getting educated otherwise

[Edited on October 23, 2018 at 10:48 PM. Reason : lolololol]

10/23/2018 10:47:25 PM

lol sorry for using the word as it’s commonly used now instead of an outdated historical definition? i’m so owned

10/23/2018 11:03:43 PM

dude

you argued that trump isn't a populist. that's almost as invalid as saying that he isn't a narcissist.

10/24/2018 2:09:34 AM

Quote :

"I have 3 centrist/business-wing Dems and 1 Republican bubbled in on my absentee ballot (US Sen, US Rep, and CFO), 1 Republican (Sec of Agri), and abstained from 2 (Gov and AG). Still need to research state, local, and judge elections."

You’re making their argument for them. If you can’t make the obvious choice between Andrew Gillum and Ron Desantis, then yeah, you are pretty much useless to Democrats. They shouldn’t even want your vote. I mean god damn, how blind can you be? Its nice you can wash your hands by abstaining though.

I’m a pragmatist that appreciates conservadems running in conservative districts, but nothing has me more convinced the Dems should drive left and leave middle voters than a “middle voter” being unwilling to cast a vote in a race like Gillum vs Desantis.

10/24/2018 6:24:36 AM

Quote :

"IBT you guys turn Grumpy back to Trump for berating him for not being left enough." yep. i mean, maybe he won't ,but if he does, this is how."

Why do conservatives love to point out that there principles hang on by a string. " if you're mean to me I'll vote for the racists!!"

Also it should be embarrassing to be a "centrist" and then state you'd rather have a president actively working to institute horribly racist and damaging policies over one that might charge you a little more on taxes.

10/24/2018 7:28:47 AM

Quote :

"lol sorry for using the word as it’s commonly used now instead of an outdated historical definition?"

This is some Trump-level bullshit. "People are saying it means this thing! Everyone is saying it!"

All of the quotes I gave defining it are from sources in the past couple of years. Words have meanings. "Populism" has one meaning that is agreed, with some nuances, by the entire literate world. It has another definition that is agreed by you, a buffoon. Accept that you fucked up and move on.

Quote :

"Why do conservatives love to point out that there principles hang on by a string. " if you're mean to me I'll vote for the racists!!" Also it should be embarrassing to be a "centrist" and then state you'd rather have a president actively working to institute horribly racist and damaging policies over one that might charge you a little more on taxes."

Well, just to speak up for myself here, I will vote for whatever Democrat is nominated. Elizabeth Warren? Fine, done. I'll contribute time and money to the campaign and I'll vote for her. Bernie Sanders? I'll sing that crazy old bastard's praises all the way to the polls. I think these would be bad choices for purposes of winning, and I don't even think they'd be particularly good choices for purposes of governing, but even so, they are far better than what we have now. This is the one good thing about the Democratic field.

If repudiating the racist national populism of Donald Trump costs me tax dollars, fine. I'll pay through the nose. Because it's either getting rid of him or its national suicide.

And everybody can be as mean to me as they like, it's not going to shift my position. I will argue against the meanness as a general way of behaving, though, because there are some people it will shift, and I'd rather their votes be for us than against us.

I also don't consider myself a centrist. My set of ideal policies contains extremities from just about every point on the political compass as well as some very moderate ones, because no ideology is up to the task of facing the practicalities of governing large numbers of people.

[Edited on October 24, 2018 at 7:49 AM. Reason : ]

10/24/2018 7:48:47 AM

Excellent response. Duke was wrong about you.

10/24/2018 8:18:37 AM

Quote :

"You’re making their argument for them. If you can’t make the obvious choice between Andrew Gillum and Ron Desantis, then yeah, you are pretty much useless to Democrats. They shouldn’t even want your vote. I mean god damn, how blind can you be? Its nice you can wash your hands by abstaining though."

agriculture is an important race too right now in FL, and he's voting for a republican (my money is on whomever has the NRA endorsement, because only guns matter)

10/24/2018 8:46:42 AM

^^ I was talking about Trump winning in 2020, not how one individual might vote.

At any rate, you guys are as fucking hopeless as the idiotically puritanical nut jobs on the right, torching allies and scuttling their near-dream legislation because it's not perfect in their eyes.

Jesus, you've got a former Republican voting for Democrats 3:1, and even that is not only not good enough for you, you're collectively acting like it's downright offensive. Get fucked.

Holy shit, the left actively discourages people like me from voting for them in every way they can, at a time when it has never been remotely as easy to pick up our votes. All you have to do is shut the fuck up and not say or do anything crazy or offensive, and you can't even do that. You haven't gone full insano-Republican, but you're working on it.

You're not owed anyone's vote, no matter how much your opponents suck. You're certainly not owed votes from people when your policies are counter to their self-interest and ideology.

Quote :

"agriculture is an important race too right now in FL, and he's voting for a republican (my money is on whomever has the NRA endorsement, because only guns matter)"

I have no idea about NRA endorsements in any race. I did cease consideration of the Dem AG candidate when I saw that his signature issue was severe gun control. I'm not voting for his (R) opponent solely because she stated fealty to "Trump and his agenda", even though she sued Trump a few years ago and has solidly sane, very mainstream politics herself. That one statement is a deal-breaker.

[Edited on October 24, 2018 at 10:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/24/2018 10:32:27 PM

Saw Bernie at an event tonight and I changed my mind about his age. He's immortal and is definitely running. They played one of his 2016 campaign ads before he came on. (also Nina Turner was there )


[Edited on October 24, 2018 at 10:46 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2018 10:45:46 PM

Oh he is definitely running, unless Warren somehow manages to strangle his campaign in the crib.

10/24/2018 11:47:32 PM

Quote :

"You're certainly not owed votes from people when your policies are counter to their self-interest"

I don't want to get in another argument about this, but unless you're making an absurd amount of money (like 500k+/yr), and I don't think you are, the policies of the left are not meant to be against your self-interest. The policies of moderate Democrats are absolutely worse for you than the far left, because they'd rather the middle class "share the load" rather than tax the extremely wealthy at historical rates.

[Edited on October 25, 2018 at 12:02 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2018 12:00:47 AM

Quote :

" the left actively discourages people like me from voting for them in every way they can"

Because it is mathematically advantageous to expand voter engagement more so than chase your vote. That is the only point the left has been trying to make. As disenfranchisement and income disparities increase and become more pronounced and unavoidable, the lefts message becomes more palatable to the population at large than the concerns of lily-white suburbanite John Deer dads.

There are not nearly as many of you as you seem to think there are.

10/25/2018 12:19:17 AM

I dislike Donald Trump to the extent that I would vote against any candidate who supports him; therefore, given the opportunity, I would gladly vote against Ron DeSantis.

10/25/2018 12:20:57 AM

Gillum is the best Democratic campaigner out there right now by far. I don't think he'd run for Pres so soon, but i don't see Warren doing well in the primaries against someone like him.

10/25/2018 2:32:20 AM

"I'm not saying Mr DeSantis is a racist, I'm just saying the racists think he is a racist"
-Gillum, last night

10/25/2018 7:06:18 AM

Quote :

"As disenfranchisement and income disparities increase and become more pronounced and unavoidable, the lefts message becomes more palatable to the population at large"

The premise here is accurate, but the conclusion you appear to have drawn from it - that income inequality, etc. are already at levels that make far-left candidates electable on a national stage - is false.

"Lily-white suburbanite John Deere dads" may not be the only game in town as far as electorates, but they're still big. Let's not forget that a lot of the Democratic momentum heading into the midterms next month is coming from suburban districts.

Quote :

"Gillum is the best Democratic campaigner out there right now by far."

I don't know what the timescale is, but if Gillum wins and keeps his nose clean as governor, I think he'll absolutely be President some day. I say this without knowing anything about his politics. He's just a strong campaigner, a "cool" candidate, and as Florida goes (God help us), so goes the nation.

10/25/2018 7:52:25 AM

Quote :

"Lily-white suburbanite John Deere dads" may not be the only game in town as far as electorates, but they're still big."

I've already addressed this multiple times with you. They are not the majority. You keep telling me that we have to respect them because of our narrow application of democracy. I keep telling you that it is advantageous both morally and even electorally to expand our application of democracy in order to win, and you keep telling me that we can't because it's currently too narrow.

Yes, I know it's narrow. That's precisely why we need to expand it.

10/25/2018 4:31:00 PM

Narrow, my ass. Who do you propose giving the vote to? DC and Puerto Rico, assuming the latter even wants statehood, only gets you so far; and remember, DC already gets electoral college votes, so for the presidency you don't gain much.

Felons? You could get something in the neighborhood of six million votes there. Nothing to sneeze at, but unless they all move to Florida, they're not really tipping the scale much. You've mentioned letting people actually in prison vote, too. Fortunately that glistening turd of an idea has no possibility of passage, so we don't have to spend much time on it; in fact, it's one of those dingbat Lefty ideas that would drive people into the arms of law and order Republicans.

So what's the move? This isn't 1910, when you had a lot of room to expand the vote.

10/26/2018 7:28:23 AM

lol "law and order Republicans"

Good one.

10/26/2018 8:18:10 AM

Quote :

"Narrow, my ass. Who do you propose giving the vote to?"

the 80% of voting age millenials that don't vote (and pick liberals/progressives by a 2:1 margin).

10/26/2018 8:57:13 AM

Quote :

" You've mentioned letting people actually in prison vote, too. Fortunately that glistening turd of an idea has no possibility of passage, so we don't have to spend much time on it; in fact, it's one of those dingbat Lefty ideas that would drive people into the arms of law and order Republicans. "

"dingbat left idea"
UNF Poll: 71 Percent Of Florida Voters Support Amendment 4 Restoring Felons' Voting Rights
http://news.wjct.org/post/unf-poll-71-percent-florida-voters-support-amendment-4-restoring-felons-voting-rights
just letting felons who have gotten out of prison vote again would restore voting rights to over a million people in florida

and i'm not sure how grumpyGOP still hasn't realized that you expand your base even without needing to re-enfranchise any voters. our voter turnout is between 40-60%, you can expand your base just by having an energizing message that reaches people who otherwise wouldn't vote -- obama won was because his message resulted in a high turnout

[Edited on October 26, 2018 at 9:02 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2018 8:58:53 AM

Did you misread the portion you quoted? Amendment 4 doesn't allow people in prison to vote

10/26/2018 9:01:46 AM

I often wonder if Hillary, despite all her baggage and shittiness, coulda come out on top if she would have thrown a major bone to young people (not sure if it would put her over the top in the midwest or no).

I know she had some college affordability initiatives, etc, but that just doesn't make sexy headlines that catch young uninformed people's eyes. She should have gone all in on de-scheduling weed. It could have given her the boost she needed.

10/26/2018 9:05:14 AM

^^i think i was editing my post to clarify my point as you were replying

[Edited on October 26, 2018 at 9:05 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2018 9:05:38 AM