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adultswim
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Are we really just going to accept that Guardian article as truth?

Here's another fun article from a former CIA agent (also not trustworthy, of course)

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/28/paul-manafort-julian-assange-222694

Another example of why this entire story, from Trump to Cohen to Manafort to Wikileaks, is an incomprehensible waste of time to anyone other than obsessive followers.

[Edited on November 29, 2018 at 3:18 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2018 3:18:10 PM

Cherokee
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Pretty comprehensible actually. Money and power offered in exchange for favors and information. Textbook criminality. Textbook espionage.

11/29/2018 3:33:14 PM

NyM410
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Its basically what everyone was up in arms about the Clinton Foundation doing according to the Bannon book the NYT wrote about. Only instead of benefiting a charity it went to the Trump family.

Also, I was literally the one who posted on here to be cautious and skeptical about the Guardian story.

11/29/2018 3:35:46 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"Another example of why this entire story, from Trump to Cohen to Manafort to Wikileaks, is an incomprehensible waste of time to anyone other than obsessive followers."


man.

11/29/2018 4:05:53 PM

adultswim
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^^
Yet the sum of these "maybe, maybe-not" articles clearly has an effect and renders the entire story into a mess of half-truths and false assumptions.

As I've said before, it would be fantastic to see Trump go down. But if it were actually about corruption, we'd see half the elite go down with him.

11/29/2018 4:10:23 PM

dtownral
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seems disingenuous from a russian apologist

11/29/2018 4:30:27 PM

adultswim
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taking historical context into account for all parties involved = russian apologia

whatever, i'm sure this is the time the war criminal will finally catch the business criminal

[Edited on November 29, 2018 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2018 4:44:26 PM

Pred73
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Wow, 68 pages of this. I suppose it would be a waste of time to suggest waiting for the investagation to wrap up before drawing conclusions... so that's what I'm gonna do.

11/29/2018 6:12:43 PM

moron
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Quote :
"SCOOP from @a_cormier_ & me

The Trump Organization Planned To Give Vladimir Putin The $50 Million Penthouse In Trump Tower Moscow

Michael Cohen discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary."


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the

11/29/2018 6:22:37 PM

moron
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Oldie but goodie
https://twitter.com/juddlegum/status/1068198096012812288?s=21

11/29/2018 7:11:35 PM

Cherokee
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^^ that's hilarious, considering someone paid him $50 million more for a property than it was worth and that person was Russian. I guess this was his way of laundering the money and then giving it back to him.

11/29/2018 7:58:51 PM

moron
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It would be a little funny if Trump telling the truth this whole time about election collusion, when the real issue was they were scrambling to cover up a decades long money laundering scheme.

11/29/2018 8:03:39 PM

Cherokee
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Until the Steele Dossier started effectively being corroborated by press reporting, that was the most likely explanation. Then again, it would be that scheme that would give the Russians leverage over him which leads to the whole treason situation.

[Edited on November 29, 2018 at 8:21 PM. Reason : a]

11/29/2018 8:21:10 PM

Shrike
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I mean, this is a distinction without a difference. Negotiating shady business deals with the same foreign actors who were simultaneously executing a massive hacking and propaganda campaign to help you become President = collusion, full stop.

11/29/2018 9:09:49 PM

Cherokee
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Yep.

11/29/2018 9:15:15 PM

Cherokee
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http://annotateddossier.com/

Quote :
"Page 34/35

COMPANY INTELLIGENCE REPORT 2016/166

US/RUSSIA: FURTHER DETAILS OF SECRET DIALOGUE BETWEEN TRUMP CAMPAIGN TEAM, KREMLIN AND ASSOCIATED HACKERS IN PRAGUE

Summary

— TRUMP's representative COHEN accompanied to Prague in August/September 2016 by 3 colleagues for secret discussions with Kremlin representatives and associated operators/hackers

— Agenda included how to process deniable cash payments to operatives; contingency plans for covering up operations; and action in event of a CLINTON election victory

— Some further details of Russian representatives/operatives involved; Romanian hackers employed; and use of Bulgaria as bolt hole to "lie low"

— Anti-CLINTON hackers and other operatives paid by both TRUMP team and Kremlin, but with ultimate loyalty to Head of PA, IVANOV and his successor/s

Detail

1. We reported previously (2016/135 and /136) on secret meeting/s held in Prague, Czech Republic in August 2016 between then Republican presidential candidate Donald TRUMP's representative, Michael COHEN and his interlocutors from the Kremlin working under cover of Russian 'NGO' Rossotrudnichestvo.

2. [Redacted] provided further details of these meeting/s and associated anti-CLINTON /Democratic Party operations. COHEN had been accompanied to Prague by 3 colleagues and the timing of the visit was either in the last week of August or the first week of September. One of their main Russian interlocutors was Oleg SOLODUKHIN operating under Rossotrudnichestvo cover. According to [redacted], the agenda comprised questions on how deniable cash payments were to be made to hackers who had worked in Europe under Kremlin direction against the CLINTON campaign and various contingencies for covering up these operations and Moscow's secret liaison with the TRUMP team more generally."


From 11/2016:
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-russia-hillary-clinton-united-states-europe-516895

Quote :
"Western intelligence has also obtained reports that a Trump associate met with a pro-Putin member of Russian parliament at a building in Eastern Europe maintained by Rossotrudnichestvo, an agency under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that is charged with administering language, education and support programs for civilians. While the purpose of that meeting is unclear, and there is no evidence that Trump was aware it took place, it has become another fact that has alarmed officials from at least one NATO ally. Finally, Trump’s repeated glowing statements about Putin throughout the campaign—and his shocking comment that the Russians were not in Crimea—have perplexed some foreign officials, who fear that under a Trump presidency, the United States would no longer stand with Western Europe in regard to Moscow."


From 4/2018:
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article208870264.html

I am starting to think this bit may turn out to be solid. Still a huge IF though. But man.

[Edited on November 30, 2018 at 12:00 AM. Reason : a]

11/29/2018 11:38:48 PM

UJustWait84
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adultswim all embarrassed up in here for being such a Bernie Baby

11/30/2018 2:45:42 AM

NyM410
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I don’t think that’s fair or accurate.

A certain segment of the far left has convinced themselves that Trump is just business as usual and none of this is any different than anyone else. They just assume every elite or politician is the same. There is some truth to it but it blinds them to the degree to which Trump is beholden to very shady interests. I mean this a guy who everyone in the NYC area has known for decades has been in deep with both the Italian and Russian mobs.

To his credit adultswim actually has been quite outspoken against Trumps policies and rhetoric unlike some that I would categorize as being in this far left segment.

11/30/2018 7:59:59 AM

UJustWait84
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Yeah, no. Self proclaimed liberals/progressives who were duped by Russian bots don’t get a pass. He seems like a reasonably intelligent and decent guy, but it is what it is.

11/30/2018 10:36:50 AM

dtownral
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I'm a Bernie fan, I made this thread

11/30/2018 10:38:57 AM

UJustWait84
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Well if you voted for anyone but Clinton, you are culpable too.

It might not happen right away, but shit is going down and it’ll be ugly.

11/30/2018 10:42:22 AM

NyM410
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Not this shit again.

11/30/2018 10:43:29 AM

UJustWait84
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Ok, I’ll stop

11/30/2018 10:44:44 AM

Cherokee
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https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/30/europe/ukraine-russia-border-ban-intl/index.html

11/30/2018 11:04:07 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"A certain segment of the far left has convinced themselves that Trump is just business as usual and none of this is any different than anyone else. They just assume every elite or politician is the same.
There is some truth to it but it blinds them to the degree to which Trump is beholden to very shady interests. I mean this a guy who everyone in the NYC area has known for decades has been in deep with both the Italian and Russian mobs."


I don't need to convince myself of anything, though. Pay to play is designed into our political system, and corruption is usually rewarded. Trump isn't even the worst. Dan Gilbert (Quicken Loans) literally stole hundreds of thousands of Americans' homes and got off scot-free under a Democrat majority. He's now worth $5.6 billion, owns several sports teams, and named an arena after the company that helped cause the recession.

So there is one of my issues. I see this as a giant political show that will revert back to business as usual if/when Trump goes down.

The other issue that we've seen over and over is the media's willingness to publish unconfirmed (or obviously planted) information, which has been used to tie Jill Stein, Bernie Sanders, Glenn Greenwald, and anyone who has ever appeared on RT to Russian intelligence. And you can be sure this will resurface in a few months when primary season begins. (As far as Wikileaks, I don't think they are entirely innocent, but they are a dangerous organization to the elite and there is a consistent effort, even by the current administration, to take them out.)

Quote :
"To his credit adultswim actually has been quite outspoken against Trumps policies and rhetoric unlike some that I would categorize as being in this far left segment."


I'd really like to know who falls in this category. As someone active in the far left, I haven't seen what you have.

[Edited on November 30, 2018 at 11:16 AM. Reason : .]

11/30/2018 11:14:50 AM

thegoodlife3
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(Trump is the worst)

11/30/2018 11:18:33 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"I'd really like to know who falls in this category. As someone active in the far left, I haven't seen what you have."

lots of earls out there

11/30/2018 11:21:36 AM

Pupils DiL8t
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I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Donald Trump apologism on the left is a coping mechanism for supporting Donald Trump/Jill Stein/abstaining during the 2016 election.


Also, these two are just a couple of crack-ups.

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1068530459368316929

11/30/2018 12:15:21 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Donald Trump apologism on the left is a coping mechanism for supporting Donald Trump/Jill Stein/abstaining during the 2016 election."


lmao this is the most smug liberal bullshit i've read in a while

11/30/2018 12:23:19 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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That doesn't make it untrue.

11/30/2018 12:27:30 PM

adultswim
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Why are liberals and the right so incapable of understanding historical context and nuance? Dialectics should be taught in high school.

11/30/2018 12:35:04 PM

dtownral
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"trump's no worse than usual" was their justification for why their protest vote was okay so now they have to die on that hill

11/30/2018 12:35:50 PM

adultswim
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I voted third party because Democrats failed miserably to earn my vote, simple as that. It's a clear record of disapproval with the party and gives them a reason to capitulate to the left. I know you all disagree but it's not a simple "Trump was the same as Clinton so who cares". And my vote didn't matter in my state anyways, so go find some other voting bloc to falsely attribute blame to.

[Edited on November 30, 2018 at 12:49 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2018 12:49:02 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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How would this have been a clear record of disapproval with the party and given them a reason to capitulate to the left?

11/30/2018 1:18:12 PM

UJustWait84
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Quote :
"I voted third party because Democrats failed miserably to earn my vote, simple as that. It's a clear record of disapproval with the party and gives them a reason to capitulate to the left. I know you all disagree but it's not a simple "Trump was the same as Clinton so who cares". And my vote didn't matter in my state anyways, so go find some other voting bloc to falsely attribute blame to"


You voted third party because you’re a millennial and you didn’t think critically enough about what happened in 2000. Also, because you’re a millennial you can’t handle criticism or failure. You’re not alone and your silly protest vote didn’t really count, except it kinda did. [/stereotypes]

11/30/2018 1:49:30 PM

moron
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Protest votes are stupid. Voting is tactical.

If you want to register your disapproval, you do this by writing your reps, showing up to town halls, supporting 3rd parties in the primary races, protesting, etc.

But when it comes to the actual elections you vote for the best candidate to achieve your short term goals, that sets you up for your longer term ideals for society.

Also, we need ranked choice especially in primary voting too because primaries where the plurality wins tend to choose worse candidates.

11/30/2018 7:46:47 PM

adultswim
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCmcL-jI7Lw

11/30/2018 8:03:48 PM

dtownral
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memes are another area where horseshoe theory fits with the far left and pedes

11/30/2018 8:10:32 PM

adultswim
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lol love it when "radical socialists" punch left

11/30/2018 8:14:50 PM

CaelNCSU
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Quote :
"I voted third party because Democrats failed miserably to earn my vote, simple as that. It's a clear record of disapproval with the party and gives them a reason to capitulate to the left. I know you all disagree but it's not a simple "Trump was the same as Clinton so who cares". And my vote didn't matter in my state anyways, so go find some other voting bloc to falsely attribute blame to.
"


Same. Eric Holder and the drone stuff lost me.

Quote :
"Reporters tend to describe the winner of the “invisible primary” as more electable and the wiser choice. In some places you will see voters who reject the party-approved candidate described as “off the reservation” or “stubborn.”"



Quote :
"If you want to register your disapproval, you do this by writing your reps, showing up to town halls, supporting 3rd parties in the primary races, protesting, etc."


Or by making hundreds of millions of dollar so you can buy influence.


[Edited on December 1, 2018 at 8:59 AM. Reason : a]

12/1/2018 8:50:16 AM

NyM410
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President Gambino on a roll today.

12/3/2018 11:08:45 AM

moron
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/03/michael-cohen-plea-deal-donald-trump-tower-moscow-russia-column/2183355002/

I'll be shocked if Trump doesn't try to scuttle the Mueller investigation.

He cares more about himself and his family than the country... he'll risk losing reelection and damaging the credibility of the country if he thinks he can save himself or his kids.

12/3/2018 11:51:20 AM

rjrumfel
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Really? You think he would put his kids before himself? I see him as the kind of person that, if the WH was ever attacked, would use Ivanka as a human shield.

12/3/2018 12:07:18 PM

NyM410
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If Ivanka is in jail he knows he’ll never be able to fuck her so he’d probably help her.

He’d drive Junior and Eric to prison himself if it meant saving his own ass.

[Edited on December 3, 2018 at 12:12 PM. Reason : X]

12/3/2018 12:11:59 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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What the hell is this tripe?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12/a-trump-haters-guide-to-mueller-skepticism

Quote :
"... Trump won't always be in office. The weapons you create for your side today will be used by the other side against you tomorrow. Do we really want the special-counsel investigation to become a staple of presidential life?"

If the president potentially collaborated with a foreign power to win an election, then yes.

Quote :
"Jerome Corsi insists that Mueller was (and is) threatening him with a raft of indictments unless he signed on to an untrue story of how he came to believe (or know) that WikiLeaks had hacked the e-mails of John Podesta."

So we're just taking Jerome Corsi at his word now?

Quote :
"We don’t know why Mueller feels Manafort is lying to prosecutors, but we do know that Mueller is either asking him about things that have little to do with Manfort's guilty plea, i.e. acting as an unregistered agent of Ukraine, or else asking him things that have little to do with the original purpose of Mueller's investigation, i.e. Russian conspiracy."

It would have been nice if the author had elaborated on why we know that it's only one of these two options.

12/4/2018 12:11:23 PM

nacstate
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Roger stone pleading the fifth, not cooperating with Senate judiciary committee



[Edited on December 4, 2018 at 7:47 PM. Reason : Fif]

12/4/2018 7:40:55 PM

Cherokee
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https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5425861-Flynn-filing.html

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5425863-46-1.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/robert-mueller-sentencing-memo-for-former-trump-advisor-michael-flynn.html

12/4/2018 9:13:27 PM

NyM410
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^^ blah blah blah but you can’t “plead the fifth” on document requests. It’s a show and a signal to the Don that he won’t roll.

12/5/2018 10:46:11 AM

dtownral
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somewhat related to this thread, if you have Showtime this mini-series is really good:
https://www.sho.com/enemies-the-president-justice-and-the-fbi

12/7/2018 12:55:04 PM

NyM410
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Wooo boooyyy... the Cohen filings are something.

No other president in history would survive this. But we all know Don the Con will.

12/7/2018 5:10:42 PM

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