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TerdFerguson
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Quote :
"("Workers of the WORLD, UNITE!")"


I get that this is how you feel, but is this what you think Bob Ditka-stache is shouting at his local AFL-CIO meeting in the rust belt? Seems doubtful.

In fact, you're more likely to hear "DEY TURK ER JERBSSSSSS," which is a pretty slippery slope to ethno-nationalism (see Trump, Donald.)

The only reason I'm being contrarian on all this is because I'm quite concerned about voices that would wish liberal enlightenment to bow to the backwardass racial inquisition that is ongoing in this country right now, all for short-term gains..

IMO, Dems should continue to be EXPLICIT that they want to include all americans in their vision, it seems we would both strongly agree on this point.


Quote :
"Scott Walker is loathed in Wisconsin by the working class. Google "2011 Wisconsin Protests" if you need to see images of the united front against him."


Yea, and Walker proceeded to win re-election twice after those protests, running on an explicitly anti-labor (and at times racist) platform. In a state that has one of the highest Union participation rates in the country. Labor (as we knew it in the 20th century) is dead, you can't turn economic and political power over to something that doesn't exist.

11/9/2017 12:22:48 PM

dtownral
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i think you should start following some DSA social media platforms or maybe even meet some members, they are extremely clear and explicit where they stand on social issues and are regularly on the front lines of protests for these issues. i don't think there are any progressives/liberals asking for that to change.

in regards to walker and winsconsin, didn't the democrats run centrist moderates? i know at least that labor wasn't a fan of burke.

11/9/2017 12:34:34 PM

tulsigabbard
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Quote :
"Here's a nuance you fail to understand, and it's really important because it's what makes you one of the most insufferable people on this message board. Go back and read my post, which I posted twice, and see the words "can", "if", "could", and "possibly". Go back and read the rest of this thread, nobody is declaring Virginia an ultimate victory that means democrats will win by a landslide in 2018 and then in 2020. People have used phrases like "small steps" and "doesn't mean the House will flip".
"

I understand what you are saying now (nothing) and previously assumed (incorrectly) that you meant to say something new. The way you are explaining it here essentially means that the statement didn't actually claim anything outside of the what has always been obvious to everyone. If all you are saying is that "democrats could win power if they flip the country", then why did you need to see a Virginia governor's race to proclaim that? Are you just now finding out about elections? I could have told you any day that anyone "could possibly" win any seat "if" they flip enough people in "small steps".

Quote :
"These are terms you never use, and when you post this way you appear to be under the impression you're always right and there's no room for another opinion. ."

You haven't read enough of my posts then. No, I don't do what you just did, but I do use a lot of hypotheticals and literally ask open questions in a lot of posts.

Quote :
"You were one of a couple people on this board who absolutely KNEW that Hillary was going to win, so it didn't matter who you voted for. You knew it so hard and acted like such a dick about it I came after you, basically offering to front money for you to bet on it happening. "

I knew Hillary was going to win my States and she did so it didn't matter who I voted for. I was wrong about Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Ohio and have not only admitted that, but changed my approach to try to understand why Trump won in these places. I feel like one of the only people on this board who actually admits they were wrong about the election. Most of the people on here still think Comey and Russia made them wrong.

Quote :
"And then when you were wrong did you come to some realization that maybe you don't know as much as you think you know? Of course not, now you act like you're the most enlightened person on this board and everyone is stupid and getting tricked. YOU were wrong, act as such."

You are speaking in such a fixed-mindset. Being wrong doesn't make you any less enlightened. If you take the right approach and don't live in denial, being wrong actually makes you more enlightened. I admit when I'm wrong, learn from it, and move on. From this post, I gather that you are AFRAID of being wrong because you are afraid of your own ignorance.

Its not the number of things I know that makes me so enlightened. Its my approach. I was wrong then and could be wrong now, but my open-minded approach is far superior to most on here. My ability to suspend bias allows me to evaluate situations based on observations and facts and also liberates me from having to adopt a set of beliefs from any party or organization.

I recognize that this is frustrating to people with fixed-mindsets. If you're using labels to simplify things and you put me in a box one day only to come back the next, and realize I belong in another box.

11/9/2017 12:39:57 PM

ElGimpy
All American
2890 Posts
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Quote :
" The way you are explaining it here essentially means that the statement didn't actually claim anything outside of the what has always been obvious to everyone."


I was responding to people who are claiming that the Virginia results mean nothing, by saying they could be indicative of a potential for flipping, possibly even in those states that went red by a very small margin. Was I making some bold new statement? No. I was retorting people claiming the opposite. That is something

And you are missing the point about Hillary. I was ready to bankroll you betting on her winning the election because you were the most sure that she was going to win, and using the most acute language. Thus, making you the MOST wrong about what actually happened. That's the type of thing that should make you question how strongly you think you know things, not make you even more sure about how right you are about what comes next.

Quote :
"Its not the number of things I know that makes me so enlightened. Its my approach. I was wrong then and could be wrong now, but my open-minded approach is far superior to most on here."


My approach is so open-minded that it's far superior to most everyone else. I'm so open-minded

[Edited on November 9, 2017 at 1:01 PM. Reason : asdf]

11/9/2017 12:59:09 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"I get that this is how you feel, but is this what you think Bob Ditka-stache is shouting at his local AFL-CIO meeting in the rust belt? Seems doubtful.

In fact, you're more likely to hear "DEY TURK ER JERBSSSSSS," which is a pretty slippery slope to ethno-nationalism (see Trump, Donald.)

The only reason I'm being contrarian on all this is because I'm quite concerned about voices that would wish liberal enlightenment to bow to the backwardass racial inquisition that is ongoing in this country right now, all for short-term gains..

IMO, Dems should continue to be EXPLICIT that they want to include all americans in their vision, it seems we would both strongly agree on this point."



I'm sorry, but its ridiculous to think that Hurricane Ditka-stache, who loves Polish sausage and Brian Urlacher has suddenly become more irredeemably racist than Texas with a dollar sign. And to write off the entire Midwest as a lost cause because of racism and to focus on states that still have CONFEDERATE SOLDIER STATUES on state grounds is comically absurd on its face. If one genuinely believes that racism has infected an entire region and therefore they are unreachable, then surely you cannot sincerely turn around and use that exact same logic to justify targeting Virginia, where KKK members and Nazi's literally murdered a leftist in order to defend a statue of Robert E. Lee.

I mean, how does that logic add up in anyone's head?


Quote :
"Yea, and Walker proceeded to win re-election twice after those protests, running on an explicitly anti-labor (and at times racist) platform."


Yes, and he was bankrolled by the Koch brothers and other outside titans of industry. This is how corporate capitalism breaks the backs of the working class. Scott Walker doesn't represent the will of the working class of Wisconsin anymore than Pat McCrory represented the working poor of North Carolina. Their respective elections were more of a testament to corporate sponsorship than it was a reflection of a will of the working poor.

11/9/2017 12:59:14 PM

Exiled
Eyes up here ^^
5719 Posts
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Quote :
"Its not the number of things I know that makes me so enlightened. Its my approach. I was wrong then and could be wrong now, but my open-minded approach is far superior to most on here. My ability to suspend bias allows me to evaluate situations based on observations and facts and also liberates me from having to adopt a set of beliefs from any party or organization.

I recognize that this is frustrating to people with fixed-mindsets. If you're using labels to simplify things and you put me in a box one day only to come back the next, and realize I belong in another box."


This is the neckbeardiest statement I've seen on this board in a minute. Fedoras off to you Edge-Lord.

11/9/2017 1:17:47 PM

TerdFerguson
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It's not a comparison on which region is more or less racist, it's a comparison of which region is more fertile for liberal/progressive votes. Secondly, that Nazi in Charlottesville was from some shit-stain town in hollowed out Ohio.

And no one is writing anyone off, I'm just pointing out the shifting playing field. The reliably blue rust belt of the 1970s doesn't exist anymore, that's not controversial. Thinking you can shout Workers Unite!!! and all the Ditkas will come out of the woodwork in solidarity is what's laughable (that place never existed in the USA, outside of Berkeley).

Working class white voters broke hard for both Scott Walker and Pat McCrory, in every election they've run in. Then McCrory was forced to run on the bathroom bill, an identity issue, and lost to gee-shucks conservadem Cooper. Walker ran on an anti-Labor platform and won re-election every time. Unions are dead, LGBTQ, people of color, and women are here to stay, and they're winning elections together.

[Edited on November 9, 2017 at 1:37 PM. Reason : ^lmao]

11/9/2017 1:37:09 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"And no one is writing anyone off"


The person I was responding to was. And he wrote off Ohio and Iowa specifically in favor of Texas.


Quote :
"It's not a comparison on which region is more or less racist, it's a comparison of which region is more fertile for liberal/progressive votes"


I understand that. Which is why I think it's stupid for him to say that leftists are "dumbass fake progressive[s] who thinks preaching "economic justice" to racists is going to win elections"

What other conclusion am I supposed to glean from that other than him assuming that the Rust belt is just chock-full of racists? It's a stupid assertion to make. And it's even more stupid when you compare it with his solution of focusing on a region that has been stained with the embarrassment of a slavery, jim crow, and shadows of the confederacy. You seem to think that I am on a high horse looking down at Southerners for being inherently racist. I am not. I'm simply acknowledging the political tools that were used by the land-owning class of the South to prevent a united front from a cross section of the rural poor and urban laborers.

Simply shouting "racism!" instead of critically examining the conditions that breed and ferment racist ideology is some lazy-ass intellectualism. This is where liberalism falls short EVERY TIME. Because if they dug deeper into their analysis into what conditions breed nationalism (hint: it's forced austerity), then they would be more openly identify themselves as socialists. You CANNOT defeat fascism with liberalism. You can only defeat it with socialism. This is not to be construed as "short term" concession to midwestern racists for quick political gain. It is a long-term political shift that is necessary in order to return representative rule back to the common citizen. The polarization of wealth into the hands of the ruling elite has thrown many societies into a state of ethno-nationalist ferver. It happened in the Weimar Republic, it happened in Yugoslavia, and if we're not smart, it can happen here. You have to unite them. And you cannot unite people with appeals to disparate social identifiers. It doesn't work. More brilliant political theorists than you or I have understood that the rise of fascism occurs when the institution of capitalism begins to decay and must rely on force to protect the ill-gotten gains of the ruling elite. They will happily sow racial divisions amongst the working poor in order to keep them from uniting together to demand equal access to the fruits of their labor.

11/9/2017 4:21:16 PM

TerdFerguson
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Right, I agree mostly, we've been talking past each other since the beginning of this exchange, but I have one more point to make (for the lurkers) that's barely related:

Quote :
"What other conclusion am I supposed to glean from that other than him assuming that the Rust belt is just chock-full of racists? It's a stupid assertion to make. And it's even more stupid when you compare it with his solution of focusing on a region that has been stained with the embarrassment of a slavery, jim crow, and shadows of the confederacy."


The conclusion should be that, potentially, Texas will be a more fertile area for progressives than the rust belt in the near future.

The median age of Texas is 8 years younger than a majority of the rust belt region. Texas is Browner/Blacker and is getting more so, it routinely ranks as one of the fastest growing states and routinely has multiple cities in the top ten fastest growing metro regions.

By comparison the Rust belt is geriatric, lily white, rural, and bleeding population (other than LA, all of the slowest growing metros are in the Rust Belt).

and who is:
Quote :
"They will happily sow racial divisions amongst the working poor in order to keep them from uniting together to demand equal access to the fruits of their labor."

seemingly the most effective on? Currently, its most effective on Old, White, rural working men, which the rust belt is chock full of.

11/9/2017 5:04:20 PM

Shrike
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Quote :
"The person I was responding to was. And he wrote off Ohio and Iowa specifically in favor of Texas.
"


Hillary lost Texas by a smaller margin than Iowa. She lost Georgia and Arizona by a smaller margin than Ohio. I don't think any state should be "written off" (yet) but the trend lines are pretty clear. The future of the Democratic party is in south.

Quote :
"What other conclusion am I supposed to glean from that other than him assuming that the Rust belt is just chock-full of racists?"


No assumption required, there are dozens of actual analysis that show those states broke hard for Trump for mostly bigoted reasons. The rust belt is definitely chock-full of non-college educated white racists and not much else.

Quote :
"And it's even more stupid when you compare it with his solution of focusing on a region that has been stained with the embarrassment of a slavery, jim crow, and shadows of the confederacy."


You mean like Virginia, the capital of the Confederacy, which has now become a reliably blue state in Presidential races?

Also, where is this myth coming from that Democrats should be the party of working class whites? That hasn't been the case for generations.



[Edited on November 9, 2017 at 5:34 PM. Reason : .]

11/9/2017 5:14:59 PM

JesusHChrist
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Ohio has 18 electoral votes. Virginia has 13. Good luck with your electoral math, guy with college education

11/9/2017 5:36:39 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"The conclusion should be that, potentially, Texas will be a more fertile area for progressives than the rust belt in the near future."



Only if you offer them something, though. You can't just chase demographics and expect their loyalty without at least attempting to address their material needs. Brown people do not owe you their vote. But they are predominantly members of the working class. Address their material needs and they will give you their vote.

Otherwise you're playing a dangerous game that plays into the game of the right wing

11/9/2017 5:57:33 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Only way Texas flips in the near future is if a strong hispanic Presidential candidate comes out of Texas.

11/9/2017 6:12:45 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"where is this myth coming from that Democrats should be the party of working class whites?"


The answer to this question is this: Only in your head. Democrats should be the party of working class PEOPLE.

You're the one who keeps adding the unnecessary racial qualifier at the end. Not me.

11/9/2017 6:39:16 PM

UJustWait84
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It's true. If the democrats could do a better job at being the party for the entire working/middle class, that would leave the GOP left with nothing but the mega rich, uber Christians who will vote for the GOP no matter what, and the downward spiraling "poors" who blame all their problems on foreigners, while drinking the trickle down Kool Aid the GOP has never stopped selling. We're about halfway there as it is, so it's not like it'll take rocket science to figure out.

11/9/2017 7:48:38 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Democrats are also the party of the future, Republicans are the party of the present.

Democrats say: let's pay more taxes now so that the next generation will have less debt. Let's restrict manufacturing's impact on the environment so that the next generation will have a chance at cleaner air and water. Let's make it easier to go to and pay for college, so that the next generation will be more competitive in a global market. It's all about the American society moving forward.

Republicans say: gain as much personal wealth as possible NOW, and pass it on to your own children later. It's all about your individualism and taking care of your own legacy and lineage and making your own choices (except for the Republicans who want the Bible to make their choices for them).

Young people vote Democrat because it's their future on the line and they aren't seeing many opportunities for the accumulation of wealth right now. Older folks vote Republican, because they are the earners right now and they don't want to give it up for an unforeseen future.

Democrats lack stability, Republicans lack vision and direction.

11/9/2017 8:22:33 PM

tulsigabbard
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The key word is "say"

11/9/2017 10:31:00 PM

wdprice3
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VOTE SANTOS

12/12/2017 6:55:46 PM

tulsigabbard
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Every side is going to try and make absolute statements about 2018 based on what happens tonight

12/12/2017 9:14:19 PM

thegoodlife3
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Jones wins

have fun with your horse, you child predator

12/12/2017 10:09:23 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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^According to who? All I'm seeing is too close to call.

12/12/2017 10:19:02 PM

thegoodlife3
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the trusty New York Times Live Meter

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/alabama-senate-special-election-roy-moore-doug-jones

12/12/2017 10:21:02 PM

tulsigabbard
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The math of votes remaining suggests that Jones is going to win.

12/12/2017 10:21:06 PM

thegoodlife3
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it’s now official

12/12/2017 10:25:22 PM

tulsigabbard
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I'm guessing this will serve as a blueprint for establishment strategy going forward.

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 10:39 PM. Reason : also poetic justice to see selma decide the election]

12/12/2017 10:35:13 PM

synapse
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Didn't see that coming

Not much of a consolation for the SC seat tho

12/12/2017 10:36:37 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"it’s now official"


Apologize for being pedantic but I don't think it's official, it's just been called by major news orgs.

Still plenty of votes to count just all data shows those votes will prob be good for jones

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 10:40 PM. Reason : Or has Bama SOS called it? Has Moore conceded? ]

12/12/2017 10:39:41 PM

Shrike
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Biggest thing this says about 2018 is that the Senate is now mathematically in play. They still need to basically run the table, but before tonight even that would have only gotten it to 50-50.

12/12/2017 10:43:19 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"all data shows those votes will prob be good for jones"


Any reason to doubt that data?

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 10:44 PM. Reason : ^ yup]

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 10:47 PM. Reason : Except Democrats historically don't show up for mid-terms ]

12/12/2017 10:43:46 PM

moron
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Been called for Jones

Big slap in the face to Trump... again

12/12/2017 10:44:14 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
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^^no I've just been super pessimistic and want the fat lady to sing before celebration

I'm an nc state fan

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 10:45 PM. Reason : A]

12/12/2017 10:45:28 PM

tulsigabbard
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~25,000 votes at large. Moore is down by ~10,000 so he would have to win 18,000-7,000 to squeak out a victory.

Most of those votes are in Jefferson country where Doug Jones is up big. Moore hasn't won any of the suburban counties by the margin he would have to win the remaining 2% by. This is the logic they use to project winners. It only failed in 2000. It would have to be a situation where most of the outstanding votes are from a large collection of tiny conservative enclaves spread all around an urban county. Extremely unlikely.

12/12/2017 10:49:28 PM

moron
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Looks like Moore's loss is in the margin of write-in votes

12/12/2017 10:52:38 PM

moron
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With an extra seat in the senate, history will record Black Americans as the strongest fighters on the front line against Trumpism

12/12/2017 10:59:46 PM

tulsigabbard
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^Seems right but how does this compare to blacks voting against non-Trump Republicans? I'd need to compare those numbers to confirm it isn't just blacks being loyal democrats.

12/12/2017 11:05:52 PM

Cherokee
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2016 Exit Polls



[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 11:11 PM. Reason : a]

12/12/2017 11:11:49 PM

tulsigabbard
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we need non-trump exit polls

12/12/2017 11:25:23 PM

Cherokee
All American
7934 Posts
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you mean non-presidential?

try this: http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls/national/house

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 11:30 PM. Reason : link]

12/12/2017 11:28:54 PM

tulsigabbard
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The Roy Moore people are saying there could be an automatic recount and that "God is still in control". They are also saying the military votes aren't even in yet and will have to be counted. They aren't anywhere near concession until the end of the month if the vote is certified to be a +.5% win by Jones.

^Alabama isn't on there. I'm talking about confirming the idea that blacks are anti trumpism and not just pro democrats 2012 or 2014 data would be most helpful

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 11:36 PM. Reason : k]

12/12/2017 11:32:36 PM

synapse
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Quote :
" if the vote is certified to be a +.5% win by Jones."


Except it's triple that.

Turns out Moore actually didn't have a concession speech ready. Dude spoke for a minute tops, and it was all scripture.

12/12/2017 11:37:54 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"Not much of a consolation for the SC seat tho"


about a million times better than a second SC seat, though

and the torpedoing of the tax bill

[Edited on December 12, 2017 at 11:40 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2017 11:39:39 PM

tulsigabbard
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Google says there are 9,000 active military in Alabama. 100% Moore would only cut it to .7%


PLOT TWIST: What if the write ins were all Roy Moore?

LMAO

12/12/2017 11:41:20 PM

moron
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There could be a bunch of write-ins for "no one" or "no confidence"

Still doubt a recount would go Moore's favor.

12/12/2017 11:44:48 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"about a million times better than a second SC seat, though

and the torpedoing of the tax bill"


For sure, but both wild "ifs" vs what's already happened.

12/12/2017 11:49:32 PM

thegoodlife3
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I don’t think anyone is treating this as any kind of consolation prize

it’s a seismic result that has huge implications on the future

12/12/2017 11:56:53 PM

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Quote :
"result that has [potential] huge implications on the future"


I wish I could share your enthusiasm.

[Edited on December 13, 2017 at 12:10 AM. Reason : But thank Jebus the GOP opponent is a teen-loving pervert. That's the only reason Jones won tonight.]

12/13/2017 12:07:50 AM

tulsigabbard
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^,^^ Theres something that needs to be said but I don't need to be the first person to say it so I'll wait a few days to let someone else say it first.

[Edited on December 13, 2017 at 12:12 AM. Reason : k]

12/13/2017 12:11:42 AM

thegoodlife3
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flipping one of the safest, reddest senate seats to blue, meaning that democrats now only need two republican senators to vote against the Trump agenda to kill the agenda, is worth being enthusiastic about

especially after what happened in Virginia last month

there’s no need for such cynicism after a really good result

[Edited on December 13, 2017 at 12:21 AM. Reason : .]

12/13/2017 12:18:55 AM

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Quote :
" meaning that democrats now only need two republican senators to vote against the Trump agenda to kill the agenda, is worth being enthusiastic about"


Imma need you to define "now"

12/13/2017 12:25:46 AM

thegoodlife3
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it’s “no”, but with a “w” added to the end

12/13/2017 12:35:14 AM

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