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GrumpyGOP
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I regretted that little aside not long after I made it - not because it's untrue but because it's immaterial. Why the fuck do I care who gets credited with a little eloquence on TWW, of all places? This isn't an academic paper. We don't need citations.

But anyway, no, you don't disagree with me on the matter at hand. We agree. And "my party" is Democrat and would likely be to the Left of that, if any of the leftist parties could refrain from a toxic ideological split or totally boneheaded foreign policy rant for five straight minutes.

3/23/2022 9:37:38 PM

EMCE
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Page 2.2 asks "So what's the purpose of women's sports?"

3/24/2022 6:02:56 AM

beatsunc
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i cant wait for a 6'10" trans basketball player that gets 20 dunks a game. would be great to showcase how good at basketball women can be

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 6:52 AM. Reason : pronouns: he haw]

3/24/2022 6:52:13 AM

The Coz
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^^

3/24/2022 7:27:23 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Page 2.2 asks "So what's the purpose of women's sports?""


What's the purpose of any sports? What is the outcome that's being affected here? If you're trying to tell me that the main goal is so that we can rank individuals in order of skill, well, that is deranged on the face of it.

3/24/2022 8:53:19 AM

EMCE
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I'll rephrase, to avoid the rhetorical nature of the question: Page 2.10 asks "So what's the purpose of segregating men's sports from women's?"

3/24/2022 9:13:59 AM

bbehe
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As in "What's the point of this segregation in the year of our lord 2022?" I would assume two fold. First, the important caveat is that most sports aren't segregated into men and women, they're segregated into open and women's.

The first reason, to allow women to compete at high levels. For sports that require raw strength or other physical attributes, athletes who went through puberty as a male, will undeniably have an advantage. If there was one league, you'd never have cisgendered women athletes in a significant amount of sports (a female boxer at 150lbs will be destroyed by a male boxer at 150lbs if both are elite, same for many track events although women seem to do better at ultra distances,)

The second reason, to allow women to compete in environment where they feel safe when that sport/activity traditionally had very low representation. A good example of this is chess. I don't think there's any reason that women can't compete on par with men, however, having a women's league can help to foster interest and provide a better environment to develop talent.

3/24/2022 9:27:36 AM

Bullet
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Do yall think a middle-of -the-road (or top25) men's P5 college basketball team could beat a WNBA team?

Would an average starter on a men's P5 college team dominate if they played in the WNBA?

3/24/2022 9:38:57 AM

bbehe
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Realistically, it's just a shitty situation all around and will likely require more research, which is hard without a large sample size. I certainly don't think any athlete is thinking 'Well, I'm just going to compete as a woman to be able to win' (and if there were, it would certainly be a serious mental issue)

It's unfortunate that the loudest voices on one side are hateful/transphobic and the loudest voices on the other side seem to deny science (the very real benefits of undergoing puberty as a male and the effects of testosterone on the body)

I think GrumpyGOP said it very eloquently when he said "What is my gut telling me, and is it telling me to be on the side that has nazis?". It is UNDENIABLE that that voices on the side that are transphobic/hate are much, much, much worse than those who are, in my mind, ignoring the science. I would much rather the transphobic/hateful people be wrong.

I think the NCAA's new rules (3 years after transition + case by case decision) are a step in the right direction, but it's still going to piss people off.

I personally have zero objection to trans athletes competing where they feel comfortable in youth leagues/rec leagues (minus any obvious safety concerns, such as the X-man rules in peewee football). However, when we do get to the elite levels of competition such as NCAA and higher, it will require more science and leagues/sports will need to make hard decisions that can't satisfy everyone.

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 10:09 AM. Reason : a]

3/24/2022 10:09:02 AM

EMCE
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Thank you for sharing your opinion, bbehe.

3/24/2022 10:16:15 AM

Walter
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Quote :
"Do yall think a middle-of -the-road (or top25) men's P5 college basketball team could beat a WNBA team?

Would an average starter on a men's P5 college team dominate if they played in the WNBA?"


Any college men’s team, regardless of division, would absolutely wax even a WNBA all star team. There are quite a few HS boy’s teams that would do the same. If Dennis Horner had chopped off his cock and joined the WNBA, he’d probably have a 50 pt career average.

3/24/2022 10:35:07 AM

utowncha
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^^^^i dont know about basketball but in track (for example) the high school record in north carolina for the 400m is almost 1.5 seconds faster than the female world record.

thats just NC and thats a huge margin for that race.

again, in just NC (at the high school level), the margin in the mile (1600m) is ten seconds. thats a north carolina high school record versus the all time womens world record.

just to restate, in 2012, the fastest 1600m high school runner in north carolina would beat the fastest female 1600m runner in history by ten seconds.

EDIT: i would just like to add i am completely for trans athletes competing however they like. the only concern comes at a certain high level of competition. i dont think people grasp in certain sports just how many men exist who can beat the best woman ever. assuming a tiny fraction of those men transition in the future, on a long enough timeline, all records in many sports will be held by men or men who transitioned.

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 10:45 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2022 10:40:10 AM

Snewf
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I just don't believe that the number of people who have a legitimate concern about fairness in sports is equal to or greater than the number of transphobes. What's much more likely is that this is a flashpoint issue where bigots get to stick it to trans people. Trans folks seem, overwhelmingly, to just wanna live their lives. But if any of them gets uppity and succeeds at something then these kinds of arguments get trotted out.

3/24/2022 11:00:05 AM

bbehe
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Quote :
"I just don't believe that the number of people who have a legitimate concern about fairness in sports is equal to or greater than the number of transphobes."


Which is an absolutely fair statement! I certainly agree, especially if we're only counting the loudest voices. However, that can't be an excuse to dismiss people who have legitimate concerns, which is why the NCAA (or other governing bodies) need to do research and come out with solutions.

3/24/2022 11:02:54 AM

rwoody
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Btw one of the tropes about Thomas is that they were a low level competitor before transition, but wiki claims they had one of the 6 fastest men's times.

3/24/2022 11:06:46 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
""So what's the purpose of segregating men's sports from women's?""


Representation. If all sports are open, you'll see vanishingly few women playing them - they won't make the team, won't make it to the championship, whatever the case may be for the sport in question. So we separate the - I don't know what the current annoying term of art is, let's say the "traditional genders" - so that women can compete in a visible way.

I don't see how permitting trans women to play as women defeats that purpose. The AFAB women are still overwhelmingly represented. Despite what several people here seem to think, the triumph of the occasional trans woman is not preordained - Lia Thomas won an event, but came in 5th and 8th in two others. Her times were neither record breaking nor even unusually good.

So what changes by letting in trans athletes? Women born as women still get represented. So do people who transitioned, who otherwise would have no representation in sports.

At the end of the day it really feels like most of the opposition to this really comes from a place of being grossed out and/or confused by transgender people. How many of the vocal opponents have ever watched or given a shit about collegiate women's swimming (or any other women's sport at any level)? How many of them are laboring under the wildly inaccurate calculation that there are enough trans women around to dominate any sport? How many are obsessed with the sick fantasy that somewhere out there, there's a non-trans man willing to go through transition just so that they can revel in the glory of . . . excelling in women's sports, which is famously paid a fraction of the money and attention lavished on men's sports.

3/24/2022 11:11:48 AM

utowncha
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^^

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

Here are the rankings and percent comparisons. I cant really comment on them intelligently because I dont know anything about swimming.

3/24/2022 11:20:46 AM

rwoody
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I know she is stronger in the women's field then when they competed in the men's, but some of the items I've seen have exaggerated those differences. They appeared to be a strong men's competitor in a few races, and may have risen to a higher level in one race considering she beat a silver medalist. I don't really care to dig too much deeper than that,just that they appeared strong in both fields.

3/24/2022 12:33:11 PM

Walter
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Just to highlight the natural physical disparity between biological males/females in sports, the US national women's soccer team got beat by an under-15 boy’s club back in 2017:

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

3/24/2022 1:05:48 PM

utowncha
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your example literally says it was very informal and the womens team wasnt going all out.

also worth noting what the actual purpose of the match was*

3/24/2022 1:23:45 PM

thegoodlife3
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love to not read the article I link to while trying to prove a point:

Quote :
" Of course, this match against the academy team was very informal and should not be a major cause for alarm. The U.S. surely wasn’t going all out, with the main goal being to get some minutes on the pitch, build chemistry when it comes to moving the ball around, improve defensive shape and get ready for Russia."

3/24/2022 1:25:04 PM

Walter
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Oh I read the article alright. The US national women’s soccer team lost 5-2 to a group of 13/14 year old boys. This is not at all uncommon and women’s national teams regularly scrimmage (and lose) against boys’ teams.

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-gremio-mens-under-16s-beat-brazil-womens-national-team-6-0-20210113

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-women-s-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

3/24/2022 1:45:49 PM

Walter
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You can say that it was “informal” or that they “weren’t really trying”, but the fact is those are legit scrimmage matches for them and the women sure as hell aren’t playing to lose. Why do you think these teams are playing against 13-16 year old boys in the first place?

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

3/24/2022 2:06:13 PM

utowncha
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playing practice games to develop certain skills... where the score isnt a factor at all... is extremely common in many sports / games.

a "scrimmage" is literally a simulated game. a simulation is by definition pretend or for the purpose of study.

3/24/2022 2:28:12 PM

rwoody
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How has the women's national team fared against team of post hormonal therapy trans women

3/24/2022 2:48:22 PM

dmspack
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The phrase “legit scrimmage” is funny to me.

3/24/2022 2:52:16 PM

Snewf
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Transphobia makes me see red. I fuckin' hate bigotry and I really, really love some trans people.

They're way better than so many loud assholes with useless opinions.

3/24/2022 3:00:22 PM

thegoodlife3
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it’s really not that hard to not be a bigot and to simply let people exist

3/24/2022 3:09:44 PM

Snewf
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yeah but so many jerks are like

3/24/2022 4:15:42 PM

TreeTwista10
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Are any transphobes adamantly against people who were born female but transitioned to or identify as males, competing in men's sports? Or just people born male who transititioned to female competing in women's sports? The former has pretty much zero chance of shattering any world records, wheras the latter certainly has the potential.

Is it ok to be against trans bullying, against legislation that prevents trans people from receiving healthcare or other basic rights, etc, but to not be 100% on board, from a sports records integrity perpective, of trans women competing against AFAB women?

3/24/2022 4:38:39 PM

utowncha
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in my opinion, which is exactly that and possibly shit, the concern for biological womens records is the only legitimate concern.

...and has already been discussed, while possible, its an extremely long timeline before trans men decimate all female records.

3/24/2022 4:54:35 PM

Snewf
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"sports record integrity" is a lousy reason to make already marginalized people's lives worse

3/24/2022 7:00:14 PM

TreeTwista10
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Has anyone complained about AFAB people transitioning to males and competing in men's sports? Seems like hateful transphobes would be equally against that, no?

3/24/2022 7:32:44 PM

bbehe
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Honest question, can they? Most sports have rules on taking testosterone supplements, which I'm under the impression that most transgendered males are on.

3/24/2022 7:38:27 PM

TreeTwista10
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Good point. So if they can't, then shouldn't that be higher up on the list of things to be mad about?

3/24/2022 7:41:44 PM

Walter
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

"Chris Mosier is an American transgender advocate and triathlete. He started his athletic career before transitioning, started his transition in 2010, and in 2015 earned a spot on the Team USA sprint duathlon men's team for the 2016 World Championship, making him the first known out trans athlete to join a U.S. national team different from his sex at birth"

3/24/2022 7:46:42 PM

EMCE
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Goddamn, if I were Trans, I would hate for Caitlyn Jenner to be a public face of my people
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2022/03/24/caitlyn-jenner-trans-swimmer-lia-thomas-not-rightful-winner-ncaa/7154631001/


They probably feel how I feel anytime Candice Owens pops up in the news.

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 9:05 PM. Reason : hb]

3/24/2022 9:00:14 PM

bbehe
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Oh you mean Caitlyn Jenner, the murderer?

3/24/2022 9:04:48 PM

The Coz
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I'm really trying to use my better judgment and not wade into this issue at all, but since it's dominating recent discussion on these here boards, here we have a specific and timely example, and no matter how clear what's right is to folks posting so passionately in this thread, what's right really isn't that clear at all.

This is kind of like how Title IX had the unintended effect of killing a lot of non-revenue men's sports at schools who didn't have the funds to subsidize them, or not enough interest to field offsetting women's teams. Wrestling programs at smaller schools, for example, were decimated. Right intent, unfortunate outcome for some.

Talking about how uncommon something is or should be (a trans athlete transitioning and then dominating) when it literally JUST happened doesn't strike me as making a particularly strong argument to those who are almost certainly going to be more skeptical than me. In fact, while maybe it should be celebrated (?), I think it does a lot of damage vis a vis optics to the layman, and I think it's important to recognize this blind spot if you seek to advance your position.

Why did I do this?!

Please don't attack me.

3/24/2022 9:47:55 PM

EMCE
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^ you're never going to be a mod now

[Edited on March 24, 2022 at 9:54 PM. Reason : The Coz for sports talk mod 2022!]

3/24/2022 9:53:14 PM

The Coz
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Sports suck, TBH.

3/24/2022 10:05:50 PM

StTexan
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Not that there’s anything wrong with that

3/24/2022 11:52:51 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Talking about how uncommon something is or should be (a trans athlete transitioning and then dominating) when it literally JUST happened doesn't strike me as making a particularly strong argument to those who are almost certainly going to be more skeptical than me."


This is undoubtedly true, just as pointing to one outcome in one event in one sport is not particularly compelling to the other side. But is convincing the other side even the point anymore? As with every other issue, one's position is likely to be governed by existing ideology and news source, and will not be changed by conversation with someone from the other side.

Your mention of Title IX did prompt me to return to a position I've kept quiet about, knowing that it's unpopular with both sides, which is . . . why have college sports at all? We are, to my knowledge, unique in the world with our obsession with (even the existence of) collegiate athletics. I enjoy college football immensely, but there are so many issues surrounding it - player compensation, risk of injury, Title IX backfiring, grades scams, etc. - that I don't find my enjoyment outweighs the sense of bitterness I felt when comparing athlete accommodations and facilities to those the rest of us "enjoyed." It seems like a bizarre priority for an institution that nominally exists to educate. Get rid of it, and you also get rid of this trans athlete issue; private sports groups will arise and set their own rules, and if people don't like those rules they can form an alternative, and ultimately the market will decide (though admittedly the market mostly decides that nobody gives a shit about sports unless they're being played by men).

All of that is absurd, of course; college athletics are so baked into the fabric of this country that getting rid of them would be as likely to start a civil war as just about any other issue. But it would solve a lot of problems at a stroke.

3/25/2022 9:18:07 AM

utowncha
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private sports groups will go to court just like the colorado cake baker guy did.

3/25/2022 10:43:42 AM

Snewf
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visibility bias, yo

3/25/2022 12:33:46 PM

FeebleMinded
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I have a friend (Scott) who I served in the Navy with. He was quiet, but extremely intelligent and never struck me as being anything but introverted. I spoke at his commissioning ceremony and met his wife and kids.

Several months ago, a new person popped up on my Facebook that I didn't recognize. Scott was now Sara - she was very vocal about her transition. The difficulties she faced, the things she did not expect. She (and her wife) have since moved to Tennessee, and surprisingly (at least to me, considering the state), she reports that she is generally treated well.

I reached out to her, because she seemed very willing to discuss things, and this was the first person I had ever closely known (at least to my knowledge) that had transitioned. We talked a lot, and this is actually one of the things we discussed. Here's an excerpt of Sara's exact words:

Quote :
"On the topic of sports… my wife and I don’t necessarily agree and you might be surprised who is on which side. I am solidly on the fence. Both sides have valid points, but I actually lean towards NOT agreeing with transgender people competing in sports. There is the question of fairness here… But we are all predestined to be capable of certain things and not others. Not everyone born can run… not everyone can swim. I feel like being transgender… being born into the wrong body… can eliminate some options. Just like many other unfortunate things that can happen to a human as they develop and are born… there is also the “luck” of natural inclination (or lack of) to do certain things.

According to IOC rules, once I’ve been taking hormones for 2 years, I could go compete with women in track. I’ll still be 6’1”. I can’t reverse that biological advantage I got because I was allowed to go through puberty. I feel like it would be unfair in my case.

That being said… if someone recognizes it before puberty… and goes on puberty blockers, and therefore does not have the advantage given by the testosterone it’s a different story.

In my mind, trans-youth education, support, and intervention becomes an important factor in whether I think trans in sports is fair.

This allows those who are deeply affected at an early age a chance to live a completely normal life in their preferred gender. For those of us that wait until after puberty… I say find a different hobby. Besides, having such a late start is surely detrimental to a serious career in a sport. Something that would make competing very difficult… if not for the advantages they received during puberty.

So my answer to the sports question is: it depends.

It’s not going to be fair for someone. I would prefer to affect the smallest number of people possible."


I'm not posting this just because I believe she is correct. More than anything, I hate the narrative that, if someone isn't 100% onboard with transgender athletes competing, then that person must be transphobic. It's just not the case. It's a very nuanced topic, and very new to most people.

3/26/2022 12:51:36 PM

The Coz
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See, I can go with that. The subject of the thread knows this is not physically fair competition. Take a pass.

3/26/2022 12:58:19 PM

moron
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It’s funny that womens sports are roundly mocked, especially by the right wing, to the point you could find dozens of articles saying the wnba shouldn’t exist, until transgender people get involved. They don’t care about womens sports they just hate transgender ppl (this is not all ppl weird about trans ppl in sports— but the noisiest aren’t doing it for genuine concern for women).

Outside of that, there’s likely some fine tuning involved, but there’s no reason trans women shouldn’t partake in womens sports assuming they meet the requirements (something along the lines of X number of years on Y level of hormone therapy etc— whatever the science says makes sense) is fine. Most trans women aren’t hulking behemoths (not like ppl don’t also mock muscular biological female athletes anyway— guess we forgot what the anti trans ppl said about Katie Ledecky??), and over time they would tend to lose muscle mass if the medicine works the way we’re told.

Thirdly… transgender people are an extremely small percentage of the population, there’s no rational reason to believe they will flood womens sports and crush the competition. Most transgender people just want to live without harassment or fear of attack, they don’t want to be in the spotlight or play professional sports, there’s no slippery slope or trend here, athletes like lia are a rare exception.

It was weird for older generations to accept interracial marriage, it was weird for ppl to accept gay marriage, I get why people have preconceptions about trans ppl in womens sports, but lia Thomas is a good example of how it can work well— her 1.7s win is surmountable by biological females, in theory the hormone therapy would continue to reduce her muscle mass, and her record will push other women swimmers to perform better (there was a good study about Olympic running records, once one person broke a record it pushed all the other top runners to Match then exceed that record).

Tl;dr there’s nothing to worry about at this point, trans ppl don’t deserve the hate they’re getting

3/26/2022 11:20:28 PM

moron
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https://twitter.com/heartlandsignal/status/1507836031911014407?s=21

Quote :
" Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) at Trump’s Save America Rally in Commerce, Georgia tonight:

“And you know what? Pete Buttigieg can take his electric vehicles and his bicycles and he and his husband can stay out of our girls’ bathrooms.”"


Anti trans politics is just right wing religious extremism being marketed a different way

3/27/2022 2:45:30 AM

The Coz
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It's unfortunate when all positions reaching the same conclusion on a nuanced issue get coupled together as if a monolith.

Not all of it stems from hate. Are we going to start characterizing actual trans people who are against such post-transition competition as self-loathing and anti-trans rights?

3/27/2022 9:50:35 AM

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