Only complete shitheads can look back on the Vietnam War and say “yeah, that was a great idea, don’t regret it at all”

[Edited on August 26, 2018 at 6:50 PM. Reason : .]

8/26/2018 6:50:03 PM

Outstanding strawman!

8/26/2018 7:06:02 PM

what? you pulled the strawman, my dude. i was referencing his service in the vietnam war, specifically.

but if you served in iraq and don't regret it, you're a shithead too.

[Edited on August 26, 2018 at 7:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/26/2018 7:11:33 PM

Quote :

"Only complete shitheads can look back on the Vietnam War and say “yeah, that was a great idea, don’t regret it at all”"

Is the obviously wild strawman.

And I didn't serve in Iraq, but nice try grabbing for the low hanging fruit, my dude.

[Edited on August 26, 2018 at 7:37 PM. Reason : Your entire US military action world view is Iraq. SAD!]

8/26/2018 7:23:11 PM

Quote :

"continuing to call the Vietnamese “gooks” long after the war ended"

He was also instrumental, along with Sen Kerry, in rebuilding bridges and normalizing relations with Vietnam.

Quote :

"but if you served in iraq and don't regret it, you're a shithead too."

That is a pretty simplistic way to look at it. I will say this: people may have disagreed with that war, but they wouldn't have accomplished anything other than to ruin their own lives if they'd refused to go, whereas there were ample opportunities to do good in a bad situation by going.

8/26/2018 9:00:28 PM

Quote :

"Your entire US military action world view is Iraq. "

I used it as an example because it's the worst thing we've done since Vietnam or Korea. We could also go into Libya, Syria, and Yemen as horrible conflicts that John McCain pushed for. Afghanistan was a terrible misjudgement imo as well.

Quote :

"He was also instrumental, along with Sen Kerry, in rebuilding bridges and normalizing relations with Vietnam."

Doesn't mean a whole lot when he went right back to fomenting war all over the globe.

8/26/2018 9:18:01 PM

bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran

8/26/2018 9:34:38 PM

Quote :

"Doesn't mean a whole lot when he went right back to fomenting war all over the globe."

Oh, excuse me then. I thought the context was Sen McCain's views and pejorative language towards Vietnam, not his hawkish broader foreign policy views. One could see how I might make that mistake, though.

8/26/2018 11:28:54 PM

https://youtu.be/ELFcTam4LJA?t=2m5s

8/26/2018 11:45:04 PM

Quote :

"Afghanistan was a terrible misjudgement imo as well."

Do tell.

8/27/2018 4:51:38 AM

how long does it take to appoint someone to the senate after a senator's death? could democrats theoretically refuse kavanaugh's appointment by not allowing the senate to have quorum when they call for a confirmation vote?

8/27/2018 10:02:32 AM

Nope.

McConnell can and would call for unanimous consent to waive quorum which would have no D opposition because if one D was present to dissent there would actually be a quorum.

[Edited on August 27, 2018 at 10:11 AM. Reason : Of course, I am not an expert in Senate procedure but I’ve seen the above in a few places]

8/27/2018 10:09:09 AM

you would need quorum for that, also you can be there and not vote in a roll call vote

can democrats not just call for a roll call vote then peace out?

8/27/2018 11:12:48 AM

Progressive Andrew Gillum won the Dem nomination for Florida governor yesterday. Medicare for all, abolish ice, etc. We'll see if he stays pure through the general

8/29/2018 7:11:02 AM

Democrats had a huge primary turnout in FL

8/29/2018 7:21:23 AM

^^ Yep. Fuuuuuuck. That's all I need to know about him, and that DeSantis is a Trump-clone and that he has tried to derail the Mueller investigation is all I need to know about him. Before all the votes were counted on primary day, I knew that there is a 0% chance of me voting for governor in the general.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 9:03 AM. Reason : goddammit, for once i'm willing to vote for lesser evils, and neither party will even field THAT!]

8/29/2018 9:02:02 AM

Ha I'm surprised you say that bc Gillum was supposed to be have no chance. I voted for him thinking it was a vote to pull Graham left but I'm glad he won.

8/29/2018 9:06:28 AM

the only thing everyone can agree on is that the status quo is not working

8/29/2018 9:13:53 AM

^^^you do you,

But what is nuts to me is that you are willing to equate a GOP candidate’s concrete actions to not only obstruct justice, but possibly undermine a counter-intelligence investigation with national security implications (depending on how you view the importance of the Mueller investigation)

With

A dem candidate that has only offered policy ideas that attempt to address healthcare and immigration, with a GIANT caveat being anything a governor supports would still have to go through the legislating process. They’re just policy ideas.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 9:23 AM. Reason : Arrows]

8/29/2018 9:22:37 AM

^^^ no, i mean once it was apparent that Gillum and DeSantis would be the winners. I haven't really even researched either of them. There's no need to; they're both non-starters in my book.

8/29/2018 9:25:32 AM

because progressive policies are too offensive to even google

8/29/2018 9:59:57 AM

If you lived in FL, and you saw that DeSantis was endorsed by Trump, claimed to have no policy differences with Trump, made a name for himself by defending Trump on cable news and fighting against the Mueller investigation, and apparently ran a campaign ad with his kid playing with blocks, and him encouraging him to "build that wall", would you need to Google anything deeper, or would that be enough to know you weren't voting for him?

It's plenty for me to make a decision without wasting any further time on him.

Similarly, if someone is endorsed by Bernie Sanders and is on the Medicare for all/abolish ICE/$15 per hour min wage bandwagon, I know enough about what his politics look like to know I don't need to waste my time reading any more about him.

That's just another race I'll write off and say "fuck it" on.



I'll probably vote for Bill Nelson over Rick Scott, though I need to read a little more about them both. I'm pretty sure Scott's a non-starter, because I've resolved to not vote for any Republicans, anywhere on the ballot, unless I have a pretty good idea that they're actively hostile to Trump/Trumpism. I'm sure I would disagree with Nelson on plenty, but I think he's pretty centrist, and I can probably grit my teeth and vote for him during this uniquely bad election cycle.

I need to read more about her, but I might vote for Dr. Zimmerman over Gaetz in FL-1. Gaetz is fucking abhorrent. At first glance, Dr Z seems pretty moderate. It won't matter, though...the Dems could run Jesus in FL-1, and he'd lose 70/30.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 11:31 AM. Reason : ]

8/29/2018 11:21:11 AM

Duke, even 52% of Republicans support Medicare for All.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/most-americans-now-support-medicare-for-all-and-free-college-tuition.html

And Trump is nothing but a continuation of the party you've supported for years.

8/29/2018 11:36:50 AM

^ that's a very shocking number. can you find any other polls to support 52%? I can't...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/04/12/about-half-of-americans-support-single-payer-health-care/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4209da27884e

8/29/2018 12:31:22 PM

that's some sissy shit

8/29/2018 12:34:53 PM

^^
It's the most recent poll. Here's the one in your article broken down further:

8/29/2018 12:49:55 PM

completely outside of his progressive policies, which are good and widely supported, gillum is probably a bad candidate choice just because of the corruption stuff

8/29/2018 1:07:54 PM

The Florida voters won’t monkey around.

8/29/2018 1:41:29 PM

Like, Medicare for All at this point will be a public option for Obamacare, not a complete overhaul to federal single payer. This is something that was passed by the House nearly a decade ago, by a far less progressive Democrat caucus. It's hardly some radical proposal that should scare anyone off from a candidate.

California, the world's 5th largest economy, passed $15 minimum wage 2 years ago and somehow still exists. ICE was created in the wake of 9/11 as part of the racist freakout against Muslim immigrants, it's not some long established agency that we can't live without. Calling for it's abolishment shouldn't scare off anyone. None of these things should.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

8/29/2018 2:30:50 PM

theDuke is the mythical "moderate Republican" that Democrats have been chasing for decades to no avail. He's actually a really good example of how moderate Republicans simply won't vote Democratic (because they're not Democrats...they're Republicans). At best, they'll abstain from voting for some fascist ghoul, and at worst they'll pinch their noses and vote for them anyway or try and find some other Republican that they can support.

The Republican party exists solely to narrow the pool of voters in order to consolidate power to the super-rich. And the Democratic Party in response has failed miserably at trying to win elections within these rapidly shrinking margins. It's an insanely stupid and losing strategy, and they should completely drop it and run to the left and actually try to (re)enfranchise non-voters by promising simple and popular policy proposals like medicare for all, raising minimum wages, and abolishing our newly minted gestapo forces such as ICE. Actual policy proposals that lift the material conditions of the working poor can actually turn out voters. Mealy-mouthed, incremental, and piece-meal solutions that only appeal to these mythical moderate Republicans (who will never fucking vote for you anyway) will not.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 2:53 PM. Reason : ]

8/29/2018 2:50:59 PM

To be fair it looks like we're starting to see more of those types of democrats run. The question will be is how far towards the center will they move after they start winning primaries.

8/29/2018 3:33:25 PM

Quote :

"He's actually a really good example of how moderate Republicans simply won't vote Democratic"

Didn't theDuke866 vote for Obama, twice?

Wait nevermind

theDuke866:

Quote :

"HRC/President Obama/etc are dirty commies."

I do not think he is a "moderate Republican". I think he's more of a Libertarian than anything.

8/29/2018 6:30:02 PM

Fast tracking judges in exchange for naming a building after a republican? I missed this yesterday. Shrike are you still defending party leadership or can you agree this is bad?

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 9:10 PM. Reason : ?]

8/29/2018 9:09:17 PM

Quote :

"The Florida voters won’t monkey around."

damn dude i thought this was a joke but desantis actually said that??

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/08/29/andrew-gillum-ron-desantis-monkey-comment-out-trump-playbook/1139968002/

8/29/2018 9:54:41 PM

Quote :

"Duke, even 52% of Republicans support Medicare for All. "

I don't give a fuck what % support it.

Quote :

"And Trump is nothing but a continuation of the party you've supported for years."

[NO]

The seeds for Trump have certainly been germinating for a while, and the GOP has edged more and more in that direction for a while, but Trump is something different.

It's probably a stretch to say that I have supported the GOP for years. I changed my registration to (L) a couple of years ago. I would've done it before that, but I figured I might as well nominally stick around and vote in the GOP primary (I voted Kasich, and then changed my registration hours later). I would have switched to (I) (or in FL, No Party Affiliation, or "NPA")...but then you can't vote in any primaries, so it's pointless.

I have never been a party-line GOP voter (in fact, the only GOP Presidential candidate I've ever voted for in the general election was GWB in 2000. I voted McCain in the primary in '08, but then wrote in "none of the above" in the general, because he sold out to the right wing--and with Palin, also the stupid wing--of the party.). I have voted for fewer and fewer Republicans, seemingly with every election cycle. For the last 2, I'd say it was probably about 25% GOP, 35% Libertarian, 5% Dem, and 40% abstain/none of the above.

I'm gonna guess 0% GOP, 45% Libertarian, 10% Dem, and 45% abstain/none of the above this time, but it's the Dem's vote to lose. I'm looking to vote for them, but they'll fuck it up.

Quote :

"Like, Medicare for All at this point will be a public option for Obamacare"

Maybe, maaaaayyyyybe I could grudgingly go for that, depending on the details. At best, I don't like it, it's not what I would really support, but we have a fucked up system now, and we had a fucked up system before, and there isn't the political will for a non-fucked up system, so whatever.

Quote :

"California, the world's 5th largest economy, passed $15 minimum wage 2 years ago and somehow still exists. ICE was created in the wake of 9/11 as part of the racist freakout against Muslim immigrants, it's not some long established agency that we can't live without. Calling for it's abolishment shouldn't scare off anyone. None of these things should."

California is California. $15/hr min wage federally is a terrible idea.

ICE, I don't give a shit about as long as the valid functions are retained elsewhere. I'm very pro-immigration, but I'm not full-up open borders. I'm all for eliminating agencies--but I do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Regardless, those issues form a pretty representative sample for someone's politics, at least in the sense that if they're on the hard left side of all those, they're overall gonna be vastly more hard left than I am willing to stomach, even for the sake of defeating and/or restraining Trumpism.

Quote :

"moderate Republicans simply won't vote Democratic (because they're not Democrats...they're Republicans)"

I don't buy that, and 10x over at the moment, with such a sharply divided GOP. There are a lot of Nevertrump Republican pundits who are advocating voting Dem this round. For my part, I plan on voting for Nelson (D) for FL Senate, in what is expected to be a tightly contested race. For that matter, that race is likely the only reason I'll bother going to the polls at all, as there's a good chance that no other race will both have a candidate that I can tolerate as well as be even remotely contested.

Quote :

"I do not think he is a "moderate Republican". I think he's more of a Libertarian than anything."

I'm registered (L). I often don't vote for them, either...I won't vote for the ones who are fucking crazy.

I would say that I am a libertarian centrist. I am probably further to the left on social issues than I am to the right on economic issues, but I'm mostly more motivated by economic issues.

Quote :

"HRC/President Obama/etc are dirty commies."

That was pretty much tongue-in-cheek.

I fucking loathe HRC. I think she should have been prosecuted...but I would still have voted for her against Trump if I had thought he'd been a serious threat to win. No kidding, I waited until 15 minutes before the polls closed here, then then filled out the rest of my ballot, and then checked the latest updates and projections to make sure things looked on track for HRC, and then I voted for Gary Johnson.

I always liked President Obama as a dude and as the chief executive. I had serious issues with him on policy. I'd still vote for him easily against Trump--actually with less angst than I would have voting for HRC.

There I go again, being willing to vote for Dems sometimes.

8/29/2018 9:59:58 PM

At any rate, it's not just about moderate Dems picking off moderate Republicans. That probably doesn't happen enough to worry about, with the exception of right now since so many in the GOP hate Trump. As you say, moderate Republicans are not Democrats--they're Republicans.

Otherwise, though, there are swing voters and true independents. They are relatively few in number, but not so few that I think it's a foregone conclusion to abandon them and drive far-left turnout.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 10:03 PM. Reason : ]

8/29/2018 10:03:05 PM

I can't wait to vote against Rick Scott and DeSantis. Two absolute shitheads.

8/29/2018 10:34:21 PM

Why is Medicare for all even controversial?

We are already giving medicare to the most expensive people, the elderly and disabled.

[Edited on August 29, 2018 at 10:45 PM. Reason : ]

8/29/2018 10:44:35 PM

Quote :

"since so many in the GOP hate Trump."

who wants to tell him?

and Trump is absolutely a continuation of the GOP of the past 40-ish years. I don’t see how that’s even debatable at this point.

8/30/2018 12:58:50 AM

Quote :

"I don't buy that, and 10x over at the moment, with such a sharply divided GOP."

https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx

There's nothing to "buy." The facts are in. The GOP is not divided. According to the most recent Gallup polling, Trump has 87% approval within his own party. This is not surprising, because the Republican Party is now an openly white-nationalist party (as opposed to being the closeted white-nationalist party it used to be).

Trump IS the GOP. Look at him. He is the captain now.

Trying to appease the 13% of Republicans who are "never Trumpers" is a fool's errand. The margin of Republicans who disapprove of him is so small that it is inconsequential, because just as many Democrats approve of him (which is mind-boggling, but it is what it is) than Republicans who disapprove. The Democrats, if they want to win, don't have a choice. They MUST go left.

Because the GOP is not fractured. It is totally united behind him. Trying to defeat the far-right from the center is a recipe for disaster.


By the way, this:

Quote :

"I have voted for fewer and fewer Republicans, seemingly with every election cycle. For the last 2, I'd say it was probably about 25% GOP, 35% Libertarian, 5% Dem, and 40% abstain/none of the above."

Totally re-enforces my point that "moderate Republicans" will "At best abstain from voting for some fascist ghoul, and at worst they'll pinch their noses and vote for them anyway or try and find some other Republican that they can support"

So I'm not sure why you disagreed with my assertion only to back it up by your own admission.



[Edited on August 30, 2018 at 1:35 AM. Reason : Democrats have been chasing the moderate R's for a 5% chance of their vote.That's just...astonishing]

8/30/2018 1:15:14 AM

Quote :

"There I go again, being willing to vote for Dems sometimes."

I think you like to talk about being willing to vote for Dems, and very rarely ever actually do it.

Quote :

"I'm registered (L). I often don't vote for them, either"

So GWB in 2000, "none of the above" in 2008, and Gary Johnson in 2016. What are your other general election votes?

Quote :

"Trump IS the GOP. Look at him. He is the captain now."

This is true. Some candidates have to feign alliance with him in order to not get primaried, but the party itself is behind him. There are a handful of opponents within his party but they don't have any power, and I doubt that situation is unlike many other administrations. This could change in the coming months with more output from Mueller, but for now, it is what it is.

8/30/2018 6:08:39 AM

Trump is the exact same talk radio bullshit republicans have been for decades, its the inevitable conclusion of what the party embraced decades ago and not some kind of overnight surprise. If someone is a lifelong republican who has been voting for republicans they're just as responsible for trump even if they didn't vote for him. None of this is new for the party, its just more of the same.

8/30/2018 7:01:06 AM

why are democrats so bad at this?

Schumer Surrenders
DAVID DAYEN AUGUST 29, 2018
The Democrats’ Senate leader lets Mitch McConnell pack the courts.
http://prospect.org/article/schumer-surrenders



[Edited on August 30, 2018 at 8:44 AM. Reason : letterkenny is such a good show]

8/30/2018 8:35:08 AM

Quote :

"why are democrats so bad at this?"

They do fucking suck at politics.

8/30/2018 9:27:34 AM

I really think this is the time that we can trust McConnell to repay the good faith guys.

8/30/2018 9:41:59 AM

Quote :

"I think you like to talk about being willing to vote for Dems, and very rarely ever actually do it. "

I have always been willing to vote for Dems, and rarely have actually done it. Partly because they mostly suck, and partly because my standard has always been "on a scale of -10 to +10, they have to be at least a 0, even if their opponent is worse." In other words, I would not vote for a -3 over a -6.

At this dire moment, I'm willing to suspend that and vote for candidates that I dislike out of opposition to Republicans, but I have my limits.

Quote :

"So GWB in 2000, "none of the above" in 2008, and Gary Johnson in 2016. What are your other general election votes?"

For POTUS, you mean?
2000-GWB
2004-None of the above, I think...or maybe symbolic vote for Badnarik (L)? I can't really remember.
2008-None of the above. Mailed it in from Iraq, even after voting McCain in primary.
2012-Gary Johnson
2016-Gary Johnson

2020 will either by Dem or none of the above. I want it to be Dem, but it'll prob be none of the above, based on where it appears the Dems are headed. (Unless Trump is removed from office and the GOP nominates, say, a Jon Huntsman/Jim Mattis ticket, hahahaha)

Quote :

"Trump IS the GOP. Look at him. He is the captain now."

Agreed.

Quote :

"There's nothing to "buy." The facts are in. The GOP is not divided. "

Still don't agree. While his own-party approval rating is strong, the dissenters are FAR more vociferously opposed. I mean, you have a slew of GOP heavy-hitters, from George Will on down, saying "Fuck this, this is appalling, for both love of country and long-term benefit to the GOP, this ship needs to be scuttled. Elect Democrats." You would never see anything like this on display with any previous modern President. Oh, and that doesn't even count those who don't count in "own party approval" because they've left the GOP.


It's a perennial question--drive turnout or fight over the center. There are arguments for both sides. You may well be right, particularly because who the fuck knows what the "rules" are right now...but you don't seem to be thoroughly and deeply considering the arguments for the competing approach.
_________

You think I like being totally politically homeless and unrepresented? I'd LOVE to be a Dem--I don't think the adults are gonna take the GOP back anytime soon, if ever. I'd love to see the Wall Street and Silicon Valley types fully jump ship to the Dems, join up with the rest of the educated elites, and it be a party of winners + a collection of special interests that are maybe not coherent, but are opposed by Trumpism.

[Edited on August 30, 2018 at 12:48 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on August 30, 2018 at 12:52 PM. Reason : ]

8/30/2018 12:45:48 PM

I don't understand how you can say this:

Quote :

"When I worked as an engineer in a shipyard, I had many conversations about that subject with the more blue-collar "worker-bee" crowd. They would have basically been universally disgusted by racism...but also really, really bad at recognizing it--fairly poor at recognizing overt racism with at least a modicum of subtlety (like white polo shirts and torches at a Unite The Right march--the bulk of them who weren't doing anything outright, overtly Nazi-ish), and almost totally blind to systemic, implicit racism...stuff like racial profiling, police harassment, etc."

But then be opposed to policy measures intended to solve these issues?

8/30/2018 12:51:43 PM

I'm not wholesale opposed to such policies. I'd be with you on many issues that are tied back to that in one way or another.

I am not for progressive, redistributionist economic policy.

[Edited on August 30, 2018 at 12:54 PM. Reason : there are trade-offs with everything.]

8/30/2018 12:54:33 PM

What policies are you for that would dial back class & race inequality?

8/30/2018 1:02:16 PM

^^ if you're okay with the status quo then you're a huge fan of redistributionist economic policy, it's redistributing up

8/30/2018 1:05:00 PM