What we do know:

-There are major, widespread vulnerabilities in our voting systems (democrats talked about this for 3 years) We know that there are areas that need improving, but not that these vulnerabilities are widespread or impactful.

-There have been a few discoveries of "errors" and inconsistencies in election results We know that this happens ever year and is on the magnitude of < 0.0001%. Again, neither widespread nor material.

-There have been "errors" that led to initial flips in election results in favor of democrats (see Antrim county and iowa caucus) There have been human errors that have been corrected by checks in the process. That's like you making a typo of your when you mean you're and Word catching it.

-There are widespread witness accounts of election fraud. There simply are not. There are widespread complaints by people who don't understand the voting process and laws within their state and wish they had autonomy to do as they pleased when counting votes. There are actually 0 witnesses to actual fraud. 0. As in none.
-Many republicans considered the shift to mail in ballots to be fraudulent by default (and talked about it before the election) People considering something to be true doesn't make it meaningful, especially when the law is considered. Many people consider flag burning a crime, but it simply is not.

What we don't know:

-How many accounts of fraud are fake and how many are real. We do know this. It's all known ones at this time.

-If the summation of all errors and fraud were enough to flip the election We actually categorically know this as well. All those projected by Trump law suits wouldn't turn the election in any form, not popular vote, not enough states, etc.

-If any of the fraud was intentional or part of some wide conspiracy We also know that it wasn't. Not just because there is no evidence of it (absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence) but the Trump lawsuits lack any common thread as to indicate that there is no conspiracy for the thing that did not happen.

-The effect pretending we know stuff we don't know or don't know stuff we don't know has on the spread of conspiracy theories and misinformation. We absolutely know that spreading certainly false but without question unproven distrust in our elections spreads misinformation and conspiracies at wide scale (see family FaceBook posts or million MAGA march).

[Edited on November 17, 2020 at 1:56 PM. Reason : spaces]

11/17/2020 1:55:24 PM

I feel like those vulnerabilities are in voter registration files, ie people getting dropped inappropriately, and potentially in firewalls keeping voting data/voting machines, none of which would effect mail in voting alone. In fact the larger effect would potentially be on in person voting.

11/17/2020 2:00:03 PM

John Oliver in 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEuG_ekNT0&t=4s

John Oliver last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyC855KdBKo

Which episode was dishonest?

And this same trend played out throughout the party/media

11/17/2020 4:45:29 PM

Quote :

"Its very difficult to expose lies as lies to people who have a blindspot to those lies (most democrats). The fact that you are asking this question means its already a tall task."

Translation: You know you're full of shit, so when you're backed into a corner you hide behind the usual bullshit.

11/17/2020 5:40:50 PM

Quote :

"Republicans lie to advance the agenda of their base"

Yeah, they often lie to their base ("War on Xmas" bullshit) in doing that....

....contradicting your claim they are honest to their base.

Gaslighting ain't honesty, dumbass.

11/17/2020 5:42:35 PM

Quote :

"democrats lie to expand their base and get votes from people who would never vote for them if they told the truth. (they need both a public and private position on issues)"

Oh, you mean like how Republicans campaign by fear mongering over the federal deficit, only to cut taxes and make the federal deficit skyrocket once they get into office?

11/17/2020 6:20:35 PM

Let it go

11/17/2020 8:59:03 PM

Completely unrelated, but am I the only one who thinks Gavin Newsom looks like a stock, evil-capitalist trope movie character?

11/17/2020 9:08:56 PM

Possibly. I think he is awesome cause he banged the fuck out of Kimberly Guilfoyle when she wasn’t ragged.

11/17/2020 9:11:08 PM

Quote :

"John Oliver in 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEuG_ekNT0&t=4s John Oliver last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyC855KdBKo Which episode was dishonest? "

Neither, still just you and the conservatives
https://twitter.com/lastweektonight/status/1329542855149416448?s=21

11/19/2020 6:03:00 PM

^I think I made horosho tap out of this thread.

11/19/2020 7:10:55 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, they often lie to their base ("War on Xmas" bullshit) in doing that...."

Nah. "War on Christmas" is a real grievance held by their constituents. There is no lie about it. There has been a conscious effort in corporate america and MSM to remove christianity from being the default way we approach the holidays. This means "christmas time" is being renamed to things like "xmas"(ironically what you used in your post), "holidays", "winter season" and anything that makes sure christianity is no longer the default. People notice this and get angry. Its the same way the republican constituents felt about "press 1 for english".

This is TWW, so of course, someone will incorrectly attribute the point I'm making about republican beliefs as what I believe personally. As a teacher, I'm always waging war against Christmas. I indirectly correct student who refer to "christmas break" in their questions by using "winter break" in my answers. We have a large jewish population so I don't think its not fair to talk about Christmas specifically without equal representation. There has been a "christian privilege" in this country and that is being eroded in favor of multiculturalism which I think is great and republicans view as oppression against them.

Quote :

"Oh, you mean like how Republicans campaign by fear mongering over the federal deficit, only to cut taxes and make the federal deficit skyrocket once they get into office?"

I'm glad you brought this up because its the single biggest grenade taking democrats all out at once.

Republican constituents want military spending and tax cuts. Period. The fear-mongering over the deficit is yet another means to an end where the end is what the base wants. The fear-mongering only affects liberals and democrat voters who claim to be in favor of adequate social programs but still believe in the deficit myth. This is literally the main division in the democratic party and its always democratic leadership who are serious about balancing the budget.

11/19/2020 10:14:35 PM

Troll on 18 wheeler, troll on

11/19/2020 10:25:17 PM

Quote :

"This means "christmas time" is being renamed to things like "xmas"(ironically what you used in your post)"

Considering that the use of "xmas" dates back centuries, it is certainly not a product of any "war on xmas". That is but one example of the lies Republicans tell about the "War on Xmas"---Lies that you are now parroting.

Quote :

"Republican constituents want military spending and tax cuts. Period. The fear-mongering over the deficit is yet another means to an end where the end is what the base wants. The fear-mongering only affects liberals and democrat voters who claim to be in favor of adequate social programs but still believe in the deficit myth. This is literally the main division in the democratic party and its always democratic leadership who are serious about balancing the budget."

Totally irrelevant to the fact that it is a Republican lie. Nice try, however.

11/19/2020 11:17:42 PM

The point is that republicans don't lie to their base. They lie on behalf of their base which further supports the idea that they fight for their base even if it means taking the gloves off.



See the trend. This is not the 90s anymore. The economy has collapsed on the working people and the status quo is no longer sustainable. Democrats have been bleeding seats for 25 years. Obama's magical 08 campaign tricking people into thinking he was progressive was the only exception.

[Edited on November 22, 2020 at 5:12 PM. Reason : can't get fooled again. ]

[Edited on November 22, 2020 at 5:15 PM. Reason : no more sweeping problems under the rug. fix it or the far right populists will eventually win]

11/22/2020 5:11:09 PM

Quote :

"The point is that republicans don't lie to their base."

.

Dude, I know what your point is. And my point is you're wrong. While some Republican politicians have claimed deficits don't matter (despite campaigning on deficit fear mongering), their base takes that shit to heart--They are lying to their base.

And your chart is totally irrelevant to that. Here, allow me to post a chart to support my own position:



(My chart is as relevant to my post as your chart is to yours. LOL!)

11/22/2020 5:48:27 PM

Thats a different point. This thread is about the democratic party's lack of credibility. You're basically saying correlation isn't causation but I never implied republicans not lying to their base was causing democrats to lie to theirs. Obviously its money. The democrats being absolute failures does not mean that the republicans are doing a perfect job either. It all comes down to the risk/reward of the lies and how well they are sold.

When republicans lie and say Biden is a socialist, its a low risk high reward because even if their base finds out he isn't one, they still wouldn't like him and would believe he is secretly so anyway.

In contrast, when democrats lie to get the vote of a key interest group, and then do nothing to advance that interest, they are going to lose a proportion of that group forever.

[Edited on December 6, 2020 at 9:53 PM. Reason : more people buying burritos means more explosive diarrhea while riding a motorcycle leading to crash]

12/6/2020 9:52:11 PM

Quote :

"Thats a different point. This thread is about the democratic party's lack of credibility."

We are debating, however, on whether or not Republicans lie to their base.

Quote :

" You're basically saying correlation isn't causation but I never implied republicans not lying to their base was causing democrats to lie to theirs."

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying your chart is entirely irrelevant. Hell, what correlation are you even talking about? Correlation with Republicans being honest with their base??? That's what you claim, while being utterly unable to support it. It's not correlated with anything if it's not even real, dumbass.

Quote :

"Obviously its money."

I don't think that's obvious, either, but I'm at least slightly reassured by the possibility that you're now backing off the moronic "Obviously it's because Republicans are honest to their base" bullshit.

Quote :

"The democrats being absolute failures does not mean that the republicans are doing a perfect job either."

Hell, I can't argue against that, but that's quite different from your bullshit claim of Republicans being honest with their base. Tell you what: You finally figure out exactly what you want to say, then I'll patiently explain to you why you're wrong. LMFAO. Deal?

Quote :

"When republicans lie and say Biden is a socialist, its a low risk high reward because even if their base finds out he isn't one, they still wouldn't like him and would believe he is secretly so anyway."

I'm more interested in how you bullshit your way around the fact that Republicans lie to their base regarding the deficit/debt. You know, the example I brought up weeks ago that you never managed to formulate a decent response to (obviously since you're full of shit and no good response actually exists).

Quote :

"In contrast, when democrats lie to get the vote of a key interest group, and then do nothing to advance that interest, they are going to lose a proportion of that group forever."

Irrelevant. I never claimed Democrats do not lie to their base; my only claim is that you're full of shit when you claim Republicans do not lie to their base.

You probably should've just stayed tapped out.

LOL

12/6/2020 10:47:54 PM

Republicans make promises about how they will do things their base consider most important. They get in office and deliver on their promises. The progress they make is measurable. Their consistent delivery correlates with them gaining power and gaining seats and is also measurable (see huge chart I posted)

Republicans also happen to lie about many things in order to try and sabotage democrats. This doesn't erase the previous paragraph.

[Edited on December 8, 2020 at 1:00 AM. Reason : abortion and guns]

12/8/2020 1:00:15 AM

Quote :

"Republicans make promises about how they will do things their base consider most important. They get in office and deliver on their promises."

Not when it comes to getting the debt/deficit under control, they don't.

12/8/2020 7:42:00 AM

Quote :

"Their consistent delivery correlates with them gaining power and gaining seats and is also measurable (see huge chart I posted)"

Like I said previously, this "delivery" you speak of--Being your own illusion (in addition to the debt/deficit, consider also for example gay marriage) it is not correlated with anything. It is nonexistent. To the contrary, the fact they have been gaining seats is correlated with gerrymandering and voter suppression (ETA: Plus an explosion in right wing talk radio and media (such as Fox News) in the 90s).

[Edited on December 8, 2020 at 8:00 AM. Reason : ]

12/8/2020 7:54:56 AM

You are hanging onto something (debt) that republicans don't care about and ignoring the things they do care about which explains why you don't think they are voting in their own interest. The base doesn't want high taxes and wants high military spending. They also are generally against additional government-funded programs. There is overwhelming consensus here. The talking point is mostly a booby trap for democrats.

12/8/2020 7:27:08 PM

If posible can you put in parenthesis what they do care about? You put debt in parenthesis for what they don’t care about and I appreciate that.

12/8/2020 8:08:34 PM

(No new taxes)
(Protect the 2nd)
(Reduce abortion)
(Strong, well-equipped military)

12/8/2020 9:55:01 PM

Quote :

"You are hanging onto something (debt) that republicans don't care about"

I disagree. Many Republican politicians have gone on the record as saying they use the debt to scare monger, yes. However, it really is an important topic for the base. And those politicians are lying to their base about it.

12/8/2020 10:18:32 PM

Most of e man’s list is vague stuff, though. Well equipped military? Are the Dems actively trying to make the military ill-equipped?

Yeah, those are things the Republican Party is in favor of and its base supports, of course. But some of it is clearly scare tactics. Dems may want to improve gun control (isn’t the majority of america in favor of this?) but they don’t want to abolish 2A. Dems may want to allocate spending differently but they don’t want to dismantle the military.

And for those things that you can say the GOP has followed through on...they also campaigned heavily on building a wall and repealing Obamacare. I really think it’s more about the GOP being better at messaging and branding (either through scare tactics or any other method) than the Dems.

12/9/2020 7:59:01 AM

Does the Republican Party really want to reduce abortions? The actions they take in the US and around the world (defund planned parenthood/family planning services, abstinence only education, global gag rule) have all actually been shown to increase abortion numbers and teen pregnancy.

12/9/2020 9:28:44 AM

^thats also a very fair point. Again, it’s about branding and messaging rather than practicality.

12/9/2020 9:44:53 AM

All those teen pregnancies are God's will.

12/9/2020 11:13:13 AM

Quote :

"Are the Dems actively trying to make the military ill-equipped?"

Some are. Think of it as a statement. "The US military should have the best equipment technologically available". Strong agreement means you fund programs like F-35 and whatever else the pentagon asks for. The majority of democrat republicans strongly agree but democratic voters fall somewhere to the left of strong agreement starting with wanting minor/sensible budget changes in the name of efficiency with the extreme tail of that spectrum being the minority who support large scale defunding and defense-based military. The fact that you only see a handful of democratic politicians calling for military cuts AND voting against new military spending is part of what I'm getting at.

Quote :

"But some of it is clearly scare tactics. Dems may want to improve gun control (isn’t the majority of america in favor of this?) but they don’t want to abolish 2A."

What did Beto say?

Quote :

"And for those things that you can say the GOP has followed through on...they also campaigned heavily on building a wall and repealing Obamacare."

I forgot to mention securing the border as something the republican base wants. Obamacare falls under (taxes) but it also has driven up costs so anyone who supports it either enjoys higher costs or has been effectively lied to by their politicians(democrats)

premiums were lowered total out of pocket has gone up. democratic slight of hand

[Edited on December 9, 2020 at 9:48 PM. Reason : they swindled people into supporting an insurance company gift. ]

12/9/2020 9:46:25 PM

Quote :

" The fact that you only see a handful of democratic politicians calling for military cuts AND voting against new military spending is part of what I'm getting at. "

Ok I think we got our wires crossed. This is basically exactly what I said. When I said “the Dems don’t want an ill-equipped military” I was referring to Democratic politicians. Not what some individual registered Democrat voter may or may not want. But I clearly strayed from the main point anyways.

As for the Obamacare statistics...the argument isn’t whether or not the ACA is good or bad. It’s that the GOP has promised to repeal it. They haven’t. And repealing it is unpopular. I was just providing an example of an obvious thing they haven’t been able to follow through on. And it’s been like 10 years of trying.

12/9/2020 10:17:39 PM

Well the ACA thing was all on John Mccain

Quote :

"Ok I think we got our wires crossed. This is basically exactly what I said. When I said “the Dems don’t want an ill-equipped military” I was referring to Democratic politicians. Not what some individual registered Democrat voter may or may not want. But I clearly strayed from the main point anyways. "

My main credibility issue is that republicans generally operate in the interests of what their base wants while democrats leave much more distance between how they govern and what their base wants. You occasionally see democrat politicians aligning with republican values but almost never see republican politicians aligning with democrat voter values. John Mccain was the rare exception.

[Edited on December 9, 2020 at 10:30 PM. Reason : look at the gop in the pic they are stunned and john mccain got dragged for that]

[Edited on December 9, 2020 at 10:30 PM. Reason : gop]

12/9/2020 10:29:39 PM

I notice you've made the wise decision to stop trying to bullshit that Republicans are not lying about the deficit/debt. LOL!

12/9/2020 11:23:09 PM

And another thing: Somewhere along the way your position seems to have morphed from "Republicans are honest to their base" to "Republicans deliver for their base". These are not the same thing.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume for the moment that Republicans actually are more consistent than Democrats at delivering for their base. The chart that you posted on Nov 22, ignorantly believing that it somehow supported your position: You seem to think that Congress is trending more Republican due to Republicans consistently delivering for their base.

The question is: Why are you so cocksure you have the causal relationship (assuming there is one) pointed in the right direction? A more natural causal relationship would be that Republicans consistently deliver for their base because they have a stronger representation in Congress, not the other way around.

Can you (for a change) actually support your position?

12/9/2020 11:43:40 PM

Quote :

"My main credibility issue is that republicans generally operate in the interests of what their base wants while democrats leave much more distance between how they govern and what their base wants. You occasionally see democrat politicians aligning with republican values but almost never see republican politicians aligning with democrat voter values. John Mccain was the rare exception."

the Democratic base has a wider spectrum and is more diverse (and overall just bigger). there's a much wider range of issues that Democratic voters disagree on than in the GOP, i think. i think that's part of what you're seeing.

but yes...Dem politicians do attempt to straddle the middle rather than leaning into the more left side of the party. in doing so, they alienate some of their own voters in an attempt to win over the "moderate" voter.

Quote :

"Well the ACA thing was all on John Mccain"

i'm aware. i don't need an explanation or anything. again, just providing the most obvious example of GOP failing to deliver recently.

[Edited on December 10, 2020 at 7:01 AM. Reason : j]

12/10/2020 6:59:25 AM

The repeal failing was on McCain, but they also promised to REPLACE (with something much better!), which was a complete lie. They never had anything to replace it with. If they did McCain might not have voted against the repeal.

12/10/2020 9:36:58 AM

Don't want to be ableist and I'm more focused on the actions, but the story about Feinstein is not great for Dem cred score. She was already one of the worst Dems in the senate, this news doesn't inspire confidence.

12/10/2020 12:10:45 PM

Quote :

"What did Beto say?"

and

Quote :

"Well the ACA thing was all on John Mccain"

I just love the juxtaposition of how you simply dismiss one counterexample (McCain) when it refutes your point, while you desperately cling to another counterexample (Beto) when it supports your point.

LMFAO!

Hey, at least you're consistent...(...ly full of shit).

12/10/2020 6:34:57 PM

^^ How is the Feinstein story ableist?

12/10/2020 11:19:14 PM

fear of the dementia lobby, obviously

12/10/2020 11:48:45 PM

The story itself isn't ableist I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to immediately say someone shouldn't be in a job bc of onset of dementia like symptoms. It seems like it's affecting her ability but the story didn't rely on Dr's so it could just be more offshoots of her general shitiness and lack of care about people outside the donor class, who knows.

12/10/2020 11:53:41 PM

I'd say it's entirely appropriate. What's described by the story is how Feinstein's condition is negatively affecting her ability to be a Senator. Schumer has apparently had several conversations with her about retiring--several because Feinstein forgets she's already had the discussion before.

I get not wanting to boot people at the first sign of trouble, but symptoms of cognitive decline aren't immaterial. At some point the impact on job performance becomes significant and action is required.

We desperately need a way for leaders to make a graceful exit. Feinstein's seat is likely to stay Democratic, but that won't always be the case (gives RBG the side-eye).

12/11/2020 1:52:52 AM

Most of your post is in agreement with what I said? She fucking sucks and should have been long ago, but you can't fire someone solely bc of a disease.

Im not really sure what you're defending, you seem to want her gone, as do I. I'm fine with the story as well for the most part. Are you trying to talk me into saying "you should fire people because of dementia"

12/11/2020 7:22:28 AM

Seems like the best place to put this...would our resident Tulsi Gabbard lover like to defend her latest bill?

12/11/2020 8:22:46 AM

People should fire themselves because of dementia.

I was affected by this at work with someone who had some kind of early onset dementia and hid it until it became very problematic. Everyone was wondering what the heck was going on with this formerly very capable person and blaming it on everything except dementia (prescription drug abuse, marital problems, laziness, etc.). It was unfair to both the person and the organization. When it finally became clear, of course everyone felt bad about their previous judgments, but the whole situation was avoidable. Unfortunately, it's not going to get better. Best to be honest about the condition and step down as soon as performance is affected.

12/11/2020 8:43:50 AM

Agree. Outside of rich US senators, you can absolutely understand why someone is hesitant to eliminate their own income, but for Feinstein its just narcissism. It's the flaw of every elected official that feels they have a RIGHT to hold the title til the death.

12/11/2020 10:24:15 AM

Hey, look! Another issue that could be greatly improved with robust social programs!

Quote :

"Most of your post is in agreement with what I said?"

I was hung up on the ableist comment.

Quote :

"but you can't fire someone solely bc of a disease."

There's a process, but you can definitely fire an employee if a disease prevents them from fulfilling core functions of the job. Unfortunately, Feinstein still meets the minimum requirements to be a Senator.

12/11/2020 2:12:28 PM

To your first point, true!

To your second, I was just referring to myself really, not anyone else. I felt weird as my brain started turning towards "ah she has dementia, now we can def get her out!"

To your last point, true!

12/11/2020 2:22:57 PM

Evidently when you ask horosho a couple of questions he's unable to answer he simply runs and hides.

LOL!

12/12/2020 5:25:55 PM

^It was a lot to unpack so I needed to wait until the weekend. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Quote :

"Can you (for a change) actually support your position?"

When the democrats had all of the power they weren't able to deliver much.

Quote :

"I just love the juxtaposition of how you simply dismiss one counterexample (McCain) when it refutes your point, while you desperately cling to another counterexample (Beto) when it supports your point. LMFAO! Hey, at least you're consistent...(...ly full of shit)."

I get what you're saying and would agree if the responses were to the same type of claims.

-The claim that republicans invented the idea of taking guns as fear-mongering.
-The claim that republicans didn't try to repeal ACA

One person can debunk the first claim because it only takes one person to validate an idea's existence while the second claim is about action. The equivalent would be to say "democrats are trying to take guns". They are not...yet.

Beto was appealing to the base with that quote. Its not like its something that lives only in his head. People want strict gun control and just because the democratic establishment doesn't currently support almost anything that the left base wants, doesn't mean those ideas are imaginary. GND, M4A, and gun control are excellent solutions to major problems and they are supported by tens of millions. GOP should definitely be playing defense against them proactively even though the democratic establishment still opposes them. Its actually a great example of how much more awareness they have. They are ten steps ahead.

Quote :

"^^ How is the Feinstein story ableist? "

(Its actually sexist because you're saying a male in cognitive decline can be president but a female in cognitive decline can't be senator. I was starting to think cognitive decline was a requirement to win a major seat in government. :crack/toungecheeck But on a serious note, you can't fire yourself if people keep rehiring you. How would you know anything is wrong?

Quote :

"Seems like the best place to put this...would our resident Tulsi Gabbard lover like to defend her latest bill?"

No I'm against the fucking bill but you guys are going to have to realize two humans can actually disagree on difficult, complicated topics. Stop pretending that you agree with anyone on every single issue because that just means someone is being fake/dishonest/ or not thinking for their-self. It turns into the thing you hear liberals say all the time I dunno "let me see what X says about this" or "X said it so I have to agree". Cult shit.

A major part of Tulsi's appeal is her authenticity and one cost of authenticity is staying true to your unfavorable beliefs. So this bill that I think is fucking terrible doesn't mean I suddenly hate Tulsi.



[Edited on December 12, 2020 at 6:27 PM. Reason : beto "said the quiet part out loud". the dem establishment is ashamed of the base's values]

[Edited on December 12, 2020 at 6:34 PM. Reason : joke tag so people don't lose their mind]

12/12/2020 6:24:23 PM