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bbehe
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There is a massive difference between Trump's words on Twitter and Obama's in his presidency.

5/29/2020 2:18:17 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"Yeah, I'm not sure what Dave's point was there. Should the sitting president not condemn looting and burning of an American city? Should he just not mention it? Or should he support it?"


The sitting president should have focused on the cause and not the reaction from a community in pain with no other recourse than violence. And he especially shouldn't have used racist language in his statement (which he doubled down on after receiving criticism from black activists, btw).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/

5/29/2020 2:22:31 PM

bbehe
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Jesus, pulling stuff from a thread 4 years ago in which I'm specifically calling out white American terrorism? Ok

5/29/2020 2:22:39 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"There is a massive difference between Trump's words on Twitter and Obama's in his presidency."


In this case the words look pretty similar

5/29/2020 2:25:27 PM

bbehe
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Yeah man, invoking the phrase 'when the looting starts, the shooting starts' with all the historical context behind it and what Obama said...totally the same

5/29/2020 2:28:11 PM

daaave
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The difference is Obama didn't explicitly call for rioters to be shot. He just did nothing to stop it. And did nothing afterwards to curb police violence. He's a cop defender like all centrist Democrats.

5/29/2020 2:28:32 PM

rwoody
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So if that sentence was gone Trump's tweets would be a ok?

He RTed this from Lara Trump, almost an Obama quote
Quote :
"Looting is not protesting. Burning down local homes and businesses is not protesting. How sad that the memory of #GeorgeFloyd has been lost in all of this. "


[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 2:30 PM. Reason : E]

5/29/2020 2:28:56 PM

daaave
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bhehe do you support BLM now or is that a no? Personally, I condemned the riots back in 2014 but I've had a change of heart on a lot of things since then.

5/29/2020 2:29:43 PM

bbehe
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It is hard to support or condemn a movement that is extremely broad and does not have an organized structure. I support the goals that BLM is generally trying to achieve.

5/29/2020 2:32:16 PM

bbehe
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I just want to point out, I don't avoid your questions, but you and Rwoody sure as hell avoid mine or try to spin them as not relevant

5/29/2020 2:35:05 PM

rwoody
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Look if you want to go back to that and down the path of calling rocket attacks on Israel "choices of the Palestinian people" we can. I never once claimed to support BDS, or criticized Biden for supporting BDS so as I said then, and now, Im not sure why that was relevant. You're welcome to present a better argument.

And in the future, if I ask you a question that you feel is off topic PLEASE feel free to ask me to explain why I consider it relevant. Communication is key to understanding, but neither of us is under any obligation to debate something.

5/29/2020 2:43:40 PM

BettrOffDead
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Quote :
"Personally, I condemned the riots back in 2014"


And they didn't stop?

5/29/2020 2:43:47 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"It is hard to support or condemn a movement that is extremely broad and does not have an organized structure. I support the goals that BLM is generally trying to achieve."


What is it about BLM that you don't support? It seems like you think you know better than on-the-ground black activists who have been unable to reach white conservatives and moderates through peaceful means.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2020 2:45:44 PM

Bullet
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"The sitting president should have focused on the cause and not the reaction from a community in pain with no other recourse than violence."


He did. Many times.

5/29/2020 2:49:41 PM

bbehe
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No, I don't claim to know more, that isn't what I said at all.

5/29/2020 2:49:54 PM

A Tanzarian
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jeebus this page is insufferable

5/29/2020 2:51:42 PM

rwoody
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^^^He said looting and such is not protest and was done by criminals and thugs. But it is, in fact, protest taken up by a community that feels it has no recourse. If it wasn't it would happen every other week.

Surely there are people in the group taking advantage, as in any group, but that's not why these things start.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM. Reason : E]

5/29/2020 2:53:55 PM

daaave
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"He did. Many times."


He blamed both sides and never addressed the root issue in a meaningful way.

5/29/2020 2:56:30 PM

TerdFerguson
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If you read past the headline and first two paragraphs of that CNN article

https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/28/politics/obama-baltimore-violent-protests/index.html

Quote :
"Obama also said that "there are some police who aren't doing the right thing," pointing to tensions with law enforcement that have boiled in African-American communities for decades and now seem to burst into public view "it seems like once a week now."

"This is a slow-rolling crisis," Obama said. "This has been going on for a long time. This is not new and we shouldn't pretend it's new."

He said addressing those issues in communities where manufacturing jobs have fallen away and the illicit drug trade has become a key source of income requires major policy shifts, including more funding for education, criminal justice reforms to help nonviolent offenders gain employment and changes in police tactics, such as attaching small video cameras to each officer.
He said achieving those changes would require "that we don't just pay attention to these communities when a CVS burns" — a reference to one of the most prominent scenes from Baltimore on Monday night.

Obama criticized the media's coverage of the riots, saying the violence was a distraction from several days of peaceful protests, which should have received more attention.
"They were constructive and they were thoughtful. And frankly, didn't that much attention," he said of the peaceful protests. "And one burning building will be looped on television over and over and over again, and thousands of demonstrators who did it the right way, I think, have been lost in the discussion."

"I think there are police departments that have to do some soul-searching. I think there are some communities that have to do some soul-searching," Obama said. "But I think we as a country have to do some soul-searching."
"


If you wanted Obama to scream "Fuck the Police" while addressing the nation from the Rose Garden, I just don't know what to tell ya.

5/29/2020 3:03:04 PM

rwoody
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Great strawman

5/29/2020 3:06:27 PM

TerdFerguson
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What? That Obama LITERALLY addressed the things that you said he didn't address in his speech?

5/29/2020 3:08:17 PM

daaave
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"He blamed both sides and never addressed the root issue in a meaningful way."


He asked police departments to do some soul searching lmao

He did NOTHING. I think he wanted to look into the amount of military equipment going to police, but even that didn't happen as far as I recall.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2020 3:10:11 PM

rwoody
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I don't see anywhere in there where he says "actually I was joking the rioters are NOT thugs and it IS a form of protest" but maybe I missed it

I also see nowhere in my posts where I ask him to say anything approaching "fuck the police"

Look that speech is mostly light years better than the current president, but it is still quite toothless and has a key negative element of criminalizing the protests.

It seems like democrats should be free to criticize mistakes Obama made to be able to push to correct them in the future. Nobodies perfect but a president should expect and desire to be nitpicked.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 3:14 PM. Reason : E]

5/29/2020 3:11:15 PM

daaave
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The point here is not to cover for Trump by pointing at Democrats. It's to help people understand that nothing will change by just electing Biden (or any of the other previous candidates, including Sanders). Don't just defend them, hold them accountable and demand better.

5/29/2020 3:19:33 PM

Bullet
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I mean, sure, that's great. Very idealistic. But meanwhile, back here in reality.....

5/29/2020 3:23:46 PM

daaave
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it can't be helped! this is just the way things are!

5/29/2020 3:34:42 PM

rwoody
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^^

5/29/2020 3:35:32 PM

TerdFerguson
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Quote :
"He asked police departments to do some soul searching lmao

He did NOTHING. I think he wanted to look into the amount of military equipment going to police, but even that didn't happen as far as I recall."


Well he did say:
Quote :
"He said addressing those issues in communities where manufacturing jobs have fallen away and the illicit drug trade has become a key source of income requires major policy shifts, including more funding for education, criminal justice reforms to help nonviolent offenders gain employment and changes in police tactics, such as attaching small video cameras to each officer."


Sorry Obama couldn't snap his fingers, implement every leftist policy under the sky, and solve 400 years of oppression during an 8 year term? The Obama DOJ was HATED by police unions, It was easily the best DOJ at addressing racial policing issues IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY. Could it have been better? Probably, but singling Obama out here as just totally not caring about this issue is bullshit. Do you believe Obama was the greatest obstacle to police/justice system reforms while he was President?


Quote :
"Look that speech is mostly light years better than the current president, but it is still quite toothless and has a key negative element of criminalizing the protests."


He didn't criminalize the protests, he criminalized looting and arson, which last time I checked are crimes. Property damage and looting are accepted among the left because they have a better understanding of just how deep the injustices go. Unfortunately, that's not true for probably 75%+ of the nation. This was an incredibly tough, political tightrope for the first Black President to walk while still trying to maintain the "Obama Coalition" of voters.



The real problem I have with this discourse though, is no one is able to articulate what Obama SHOULD have done, only that he SHOULD have done better. Totally empty criticism. its political grenade throwing and that's it.

5/29/2020 3:37:10 PM

rwoody
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Standing in the road is a crime too doesn't mean you say those people are criminals and thugs who aren't protesting. And I DID outline what I wish he has said, he should have said something about not condoning violence and destruction but that he understood the frustration and anger that would drive someone to that point. Guy had great speechwriter he could have pulled off that sentiment if he wanted.


Quote :
"while still trying to maintain the "Obama Coalition" of voters."


Insert bush mission accomplished pic here?

5/29/2020 3:42:48 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"The real problem I have with this discourse though, is no one is able to articulate what Obama SHOULD have done, only that he SHOULD have done better. Totally empty criticism. its political grenade throwing and that's it."


https://www.nfg.org/news/breaking-ferguson-activists-meet-president-obama-demand-end-police-brutality-nationwide

Quote :
"Among other avenues for change, the group’s demands include:

-The federal government using its power to prosecute police officers that kill or abuse people.
-Removing local district attorneys from the job of holding police accountable, and instead having independent prosecutors at the local level charged with prosecuting officers.
-The establishment of community review boards that can make recommendations for police misconduct, instead of allowing police departments to police themselves.
-Defunding local police departments that use excessive force or racially profile. Instead of having the Department of Justice (DOJ) wholesale giving more than $250 million to local police departments annually, DOJ should only fund departments that agree to adopt DOJ best practices for training and meaningful community input.
-The demilitarization of local police departments.
-Investing in programs that provide alternatives to incarceration, such as community-led restorative justice programs and community groups that educate people about their rights."


[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2020 3:43:32 PM

horosho
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Obama didn't implement ANY major leftist policy. He had obstacles no ones saying it was easy but great leaders do more than whats easy. He didn't do shit but tiptoe around not offending the right who was going to be outraged no matter what. Remember the beer summit? It doesn't get more "both sides" than that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates_arrest_controversy#%22Beer_Summit%22
Obama painted police relations as a big misunderstanding when police were clearly out of line but then called Baltimore protesters "criminals and thugs". They didn't get invited to a beer summit.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/

5/29/2020 3:48:25 PM

Bullet
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"Don't just defend them, hold them accountable and demand better."


Ok, then what? Dave told me that nothing will change by electing Biden (or Bernie), and that we need to hold them accountable and demand better. Rwoody, what exactly are you doing to hold Biden accountable? And how are you demanding better? I'd really like to know, because I don't like being called a centrist just because I have to choose between Trump and Biden.

5/29/2020 4:07:43 PM

bbehe
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Demand better by sitting out in 2020! /s

5/29/2020 4:09:04 PM

rwoody
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You're right, individuals DO have very little power to influence structural change. To answer your question though, I vocally and monetarily supported other candidates in the primary and other elections and I attempt to convince others of my POV to encourage them to also support more left candidates. Now that the presidential primary is essentially over, I continue to push for more left house and senate candidates to help pull Biden left.

It's not much but it's something


Also hey, making it known that a percentage of Dems won't vote for Biden unless he moves left is prob useful even if they're lying! This will likely be another razor thin election, they'll need every vote they can get.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 4:15 PM. Reason : E]

5/29/2020 4:13:34 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"Ok, then what? Dave told me that nothing will change by electing Biden (or Bernie), and that we need to hold them accountable and demand better. Rwoody, what exactly are you doing to hold Biden accountable? And how are you demanding better? I'd really like to know, because I don't like being called a centrist just because I have to choose between Trump and Biden."


Yes, Bernie and other politicians have told us that if there isn't a demand from below, they can't create change at the top. So be loud, demand things, and criticize Democrats who aren't representing us. That's the bare minimum and if everyone did it, we might have some better reps at least.

^
yep

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 4:15 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2020 4:14:36 PM

horosho
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Guaranteeing you will vote for them for the rest of your life no matter what is basically a blank check. You may not say its a guarantee but there is never going to be an election where the republican is not also bad. I don't see how people don't already understand how this is problematic.

You are always going to vote democrat and they know that. Why do they have any incentive to address any of your demands or criticisms. It would be dumb for them to focus on pleasing people who are going to vote for them anyway instead of "swing voters".

All they want is to win the election. Have you ever trained a dog? If you give them the treat everyday regardless of what they do, your training is not going to be effective as the people who are withholding the treat until they see the desired behavior.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 4:21 PM. Reason : get some game theory]

5/29/2020 4:19:38 PM

TerdFerguson
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Quote :
"-The federal government using its power to prosecute police officers that kill or abuse people.
-Removing local district attorneys from the job of holding police accountable, and instead having independent prosecutors at the local level charged with prosecuting officers.
-The establishment of community review boards that can make recommendations for police misconduct, instead of allowing police departments to police themselves"


The DOJ typically uses consent decrees to accomplish all three of these. Guess which DOJ negotiated/enforced 3x more consent decrees than any other DOJ in US history? Now go look up what Jefferson Sessions did to all of those consent decrees when he became AG.

Quote :
"-Defunding local police departments that use excessive force or racially profile. Instead of having the Department of Justice (DOJ) wholesale giving more than $250 million to local police departments annually, DOJ should only fund departments that agree to adopt DOJ best practices for training and meaningful community input."


I'd need to see the detail on that $250 million number. Atleast some of the money DOJ allocated funded body camera pilot studies and the "Community Oriented Policing Service" (COPS) program which was literally designed to make police more sensitive to all of these issues. Not all of this money is for tanks and rubber bullets.

Quote :
"-The demilitarization of local police departments"


He did this to a degree. Probably a greater degree than any previous president
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/18/obama-police-military-equipment-sales-new-jersey/27521793/
Quote :
"Banned will be tracked armored vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers, camouflage uniforms, and large-caliber weapons and ammunition.
...........
That equipment will be placed on a "controlled equipment list" that includes aircraft, wheeled tactical vehicles, mobile command-and-control units, battering rams and riot gear.

To have access to that equipment, police departments must meet national policing standards, track their use and receive approval from the federal government before selling or transferring them.
"


Quote :
"-Investing in programs that provide alternatives to incarceration, such as community-led restorative justice programs and community groups that educate people about their rights.""

He did this for School Systems, google Supportive School Discipline Initiative. Guess what Betsy Devos jettisoned the first day of her appointment?



When you start to drill down, the Obama administration was trying on this issue, harder than any one else in the country's history.

5/29/2020 4:20:06 PM

Bullet
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"I vocally and monetarily supported other candidates in the primary and other elections and I attempt to convince others of my POV to encourage them to also support more left candidates. Now that the presidential primary is essentially over, I continue to push for more left house and senate candidates to help pull Biden left."


ok, i did this too, and will also be pushing for more left house and senate candidates. so i am still a centrist by stating on tww that wishing for a better candidate than Biden, at this point in time, is idealistic and not reality?

5/29/2020 4:40:28 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"The DOJ typically uses consent decrees to accomplish all three of these. Guess which DOJ negotiated/enforced 3x more consent decrees than any other DOJ in US history? Now go look up what Jefferson Sessions did to all of those consent decrees when he became AG."


8 whole consent decrees, as compared to 3 each by Bush and Clinton. Which, btw, are usually inadequate or poorly enforced.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/23/policing-the-police

Quote :
"He did this to a degree. Probably a greater degree than any previous president"


Symbolic and toothless

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/21/407958035/white-house-ban-on-militarized-gear-for-police-may-mean-little/

Quote :
"He did this for School Systems, google Supportive School Discipline Initiative."


That's great! But this initiative was started in 2011, so it appears the activists were asking for more funding and enforcement.

Quote :
"so i am still a centrist by stating on tww that wishing for a better candidate than Biden, at this point in time, is idealistic and not reality?"


No one said that. We're saying make him earn your vote and speak up when he's wrong.

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 4:46 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2020 4:42:33 PM

Bullet
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Quote :
"No one said that. We're saying make him earn your vote and speak up when he's wrong."


I mean, i'll gladly say he's wrong on tww. I'll even say I really dislike the guy on tww, and to close friends/family. But I don't see how saying it around acquaintances and such would really help. Seems like it may even discourage people from voting for him who are on the fence. And I know you've said that it may be better for trump to win another four years instead of electing Biden, but I'd take him a hundred times over Trump.

5/29/2020 5:05:22 PM

horosho
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Trump being a unique situation might be a genuine argument. So go on the record and pledge to push left in 2024 and that it won't be a big deal if the GOP candidate wins over a moderate once Trump is gone. If Trump is uniquely bad, then we will never again hear "election of our lives" after this year.

If the "blue no matter who" stuff fades away forever once Trump is gone, I'll apologize for calling democrats centrists.

If I see the same antics in 2024, (the same ones I saw in 2012,2008, and 2004, then I'll have confirmation that it was all just bs and they are voting blue no matter what for the rest of their lives .

[Edited on May 29, 2020 at 5:25 PM. Reason : I'm all about the future]

5/29/2020 5:24:25 PM

horosho
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Also don't forget that a Trump win gives us a shot at getting a progressive president 4 years earlier than a Biden win would. We barely have a chance in regular primaries but we certainly don't have a chance at primarying an incumbent. AOC 2024?

5/30/2020 12:57:49 AM

Cabbage
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^GTF outta here with the same bullshit I heard back in 2016.

5/30/2020 1:36:12 AM

horosho
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Fuck what the Atlanta mayor is saying. People are tired of hearing "go home" and "go vote". No one on the ballot is going to change this country. Voting for the fucking author is not going to change this country. Rage is the only card to play right now.

[Edited on May 30, 2020 at 3:26 AM. Reason : its sucks but its true and no thanks to people like her who could have done a lot more]

[Edited on May 30, 2020 at 3:27 AM. Reason : is the minneapolis mayor the only one who didn't have a gun to his head to say that bullshit]

5/30/2020 3:25:11 AM

bdmazur
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A Biden win does not negate the opportunity to elect someone else in 2024. And I'm still certain that if he announces now that he won't seek re-election, he'll win in a landslide (at least popular vote wise, electoral college will likely be close)

5/30/2020 4:00:37 PM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"if he announces now that he won't seek re-election"


why would any candidate do this

5/30/2020 4:10:28 PM

bbehe
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He's signaled to his donors that he isn't running in 2024 and already made it clear he sees himself as the bridge for the next generation. He gains nothing by officially announcing it

5/30/2020 4:46:02 PM

rwoody
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Forgot to put this here
Quote :
"“I’m not going to blame officers who were in an impossible situation. The protestors did the wrong thing to surround that car.” — De Blasio in a presser on NY1 tonight, on the horrifying video of a police car plowing into a crowd of humans in New York.""

5/31/2020 12:29:04 PM

TerdFerguson
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I was surprised by that too. Not even slightly diplomatic toward protestors.

He’s scared of the police union. Didn’t the police union have his balls in a vise a few years ago?

5/31/2020 1:20:44 PM

HCH
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Maybe a better thread for this, but this applies.

Mayor Baldwin's lack of responsiveness has been extremely disappointing. She should have had a curfew order last night, but apparently "ran out of time". In what profession has that ever been a good excuse from senior leadership.

6/1/2020 8:20:08 AM

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