Quote :

"immediately following uses multiple strawmen"

As we already covered on page 2,

saying "minority poverty is perpetuated by choices"

and "systematic racism exists"

are not mutually exclusive.

Where did I use a strawman?

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

7/21/2015 2:06:29 PM

Quote :

"So tgl, don't stand there and ask "what programs" trying to imply that I can't come up with any, or that there aren't really any out there. There are many to take advantage of, we just need to change the desire of young people to take advantage of them."

you have a tendency of posting things without being able to back them up. how do you know that these programs aren't being taken advantage of? a fair amount of programs that are available to help these communities regularly get shat on by the Right. that's been the case for decades and continues to be.

Quote :

"Take any of the programs we have spent billions on since the 60's trying to get minorities the same advantages that those who take advantage of "white privilege" have."

when you post something like this, it implies that white privilege is something that white people go out of their way to take advantage of when it's not that at all. I don't go out of my way to make sure that I'm being given the benefit-of-the-doubt when dealing with police.

7/21/2015 2:07:57 PM

god damn synapse going SUPER HAM ITT btw

Quote :

"> complains about strawmen > immediately following uses multiple strawmen"

LOL ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy got 'em

7/21/2015 2:08:26 PM

Quote :

"He just admitted minority poverty is not 100% white people's fault, and by extension it is not 100% up to white people for it to be fixed."

I don't think anybody itt has ever made a claim that it's 100% white people's fault... but you keep repeating that straw man over and over and over

7/21/2015 2:09:59 PM

Quote :

" Are we talking about wealth being the problem here, or skin color?"

both. refer to income distribution by race.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:10 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2015 2:09:59 PM

Quote :

"Where did I use a strawman?"

Quote :

"So now white people are evil, because the welfare payed to minorities might hurt their feelings because of a stigma? "

Quote :

"He just admitted minority poverty is not 100% white people's fault, and by extension it is not 100% up to white people for it to be fixed."

DERP ALERT

Quote :

"As we already covered on page 2, saying "minority poverty is perpetuated by choices" and "systematic racism exists" are not mutually exclusive."

negative ghostrider

7/21/2015 2:11:53 PM

Quote :

"That isn't something that you are going to change though. Rich people get better education. Period. Pick out a point in history where that hasn't applied. Super rich kids go to prep schools, get into Ive League schools. Rich kids go to Broughton, have a shot at good private schools Middle class kids go to run of the mill high schools and it depends largely on their grades as to where they go to college. Poor kids.....well, there is the question I posed a few posts back. Are we talking about wealth being the problem here, or skin color?"

You're right, wealth gets you access to better schools, better jobs, better life, etc. And we know that Af. Americans are far less wealthy than whites (by a factor of 12). So let's take the next step and look at why that is. Research points to the lack of job opportunities available pre and post Civil Rights movement, lack of access to quality education, lack of decent healthcare, the list goes on and on. You cant get out of the damn ghetto if you dont have the opportunity do so. Hence, the argument that they simply need to work hard and get an education is a joke. It's nowhere near that simple.

In other words: Af. American poverty and lack of success is not a choice, it is the result of systematic racism and bias.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:17 PM. Reason : a]

7/21/2015 2:14:29 PM

I see a lot of successful blk ppl

I am proud of their progress

7/21/2015 2:22:20 PM

Have you ever heard of this guy named Colin Powell?!?!?

And I saw a picture of a black man holding a confederate flag.

7/21/2015 2:24:06 PM

and I'm prouddd to be an American..

7/21/2015 2:29:01 PM

^^^^It's almost a chicken/egg argument.

Poverty is associated with lack of quality education is associated with poverty is associated with lack of quality education is associated with poverty.

How can you solve that though? You can't take a bunch of poor minorities, put them in wealthy areas, and expect that to stick. You will have another round of white flight. Another one of those lack of better terms phrases.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:32 PM. Reason : asdfas]

7/21/2015 2:32:31 PM

whoever said housing discrimination isn't happening in 2015 is an idiot:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-antelope-valley-settlement-20150720-story.html

7/21/2015 2:34:36 PM

synapse I don’t use strawmen arguments.

Quote :

" "So now white people are evil, because the welfare payed to minorities might hurt their feelings because of a stigma? ""

Racism is evil, moron believes white people are racist as shit. “Mocking” is evil. Moron believes white people mock minorities for using welfare… one could surmise, due to this evil racism that Moron attributes to white people.

Quote :

" "He just admitted minority poverty is not 100% white people's fault, and by extension it is not 100% up to white people for it to be fixed.""

Stating moron admitted something is not a strawman argument. This is the first time ITT he has acknowledged anything other than racism causing a problem.

Quote :

" negative ghostrider"

Those statements aren’t mutually exclusive at all, but I guess you’re just trolling at this point.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:36 PM. Reason : n]

7/21/2015 2:36:18 PM

>Toni Clark, 55, said she lost her rental subsidy after deputies found a small amount of marijuana in her car during a traffic stop in 2008 and alerted housing officials.


why would you wonder why you were being discriminated against in that scenario

don't fucking carry drugs in your car FFS

7/21/2015 2:37:55 PM

Quote :

"How can you solve that though? You can't take a bunch of poor minorities, put them in wealthy areas, and expect that to stick. You will have another round of white flight."

That's a great question and one I dont have a complete solution for. But what we do need to do at a national level is recognize that it actually exists, instead of pretending that everything is fine and black people just dont try hard enough. Once we recognize that it is a legitimate problem we can work to find solutions.

And Im sure you realize this but white flight is exactly the kind of subvert racism that exists today. No one wants to say out loud "I dont want to live with black people" but they sell their house and move to a predominantly white neighborhood to escape from what they feel is a bad situation.

^^^ housing discrimination, loan discrimination, job discrimination - none of it has disappeared in 2015. It's just denied and swept under the rug until someone calls these companies out.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 2:42 PM. Reason : a]

7/21/2015 2:42:05 PM

fucking fighting about racism and religion and transsexuals, let's all hit the peace pipe

7/21/2015 2:48:19 PM

Because potentially if a white dude was found with pot in his car, the housing authority wouldn't be notified? I don't know.

I'm not saying housing discrimination doesn't exist, but every attempt to fix will just cause another problem.

Law of unintended consequences.

7/21/2015 2:50:24 PM

Quote :

"And Im sure you realize this but white flight is exactly the kind of subvert racism that exists today. No one wants to say out loud "I dont want to live with black people" but they sell their house and move to a predominantly white neighborhood to escape from what they feel is a bad situation. "

That's kind of a retarded statement.

It is human nature to want to be around other people like yourself. And if you were to move poor minorities into country club neighborhoods, white flight will happen not because black people are moving in, it is because poor people are moving in, and I'm sure rich whitey would be afraid they might break in or something. Because they're poor, not necessarily because they're black.

I don't understand how you can give people like Michael Brown unlimited benefit of the doubt, but you're willing to apply prejudice to white people at the drop of a dime.

7/21/2015 2:54:04 PM

7/21/2015 2:55:34 PM

But would the rich black people stay or would they commit black flight to get away from those poor people?

7/21/2015 3:00:36 PM

My uninformed guess would be that they would move as well. And afripino just made a point that everyone else in here has been trying to unsuccessfully make. I just applied some very subtle, unconscious ...I don't want to call it racism because it certainly wasn't intentional, but I just assumed white flight. I didn't say "rich white and black people." I just said rich white people.

So there you go, this idea in action.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 3:03 PM. Reason : asdfas]

7/21/2015 3:01:52 PM

Welp....there goes the neighborhood...

7/21/2015 3:02:58 PM

Quote :

"Stating moron admitted something is not a strawman argument. This is the first time ITT he has acknowledged anything other than racism causing a problem."

I dont want to speak for him and I don't agree with everything he says but he has, on multiple occasions gone out of his way to explicitly say it has little to do with racism on an individualistic level. Joe Citizens racist joke has nothing to with systemic racism borne out of generation after generation being treated as subhuman. To deny that systemic bias and systemic racism is a thing is akin to denying that the sun is hot..

7/21/2015 3:09:51 PM

^^^ It's so easy, isn't it? I have to catch myself sometimes too. White is more easily applied to "good" in most of our minds because that's what society has taught us.

Would blacks move away from poor areas? Im sure they would but it wouldnt be because they want to live with others like them (otherwise they would just stay in the poor areas). They would want the opportunities that are afforded to those who have the wealth to chase it, regardless of the color of the neighborhood.



[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 3:18 PM. Reason : A]

7/21/2015 3:16:15 PM

Quote :

"Holy shit. He just admitted minority poverty is not 100% white people's fault, and by extension it is not 100% up to white people for it to be fixed. What an amazing day on TWW. My work here is done. "

Ha, i've never once claimed it was 100% up to white people, or that it's 100% white people's fault, and you know this, but it doesn't feed your hate to admit it.

But the problems you cite as the primary root causes are just wrong, and literally all the data indicate this. It's Amdahl's law, to use a computing analogy... if you want to improve a system, your maximum gains will come from optimizing the largest operations first, and by far the biggest input to the feedback loop of racial disparity are systemic. You have political, judicial, educational, employment, and social institutions.

Political and educational institutions i'd argue are mostly fair, as a lot of effort is current expended, despite opposition by Republicans, to keep these systems fair. The biggest disparities are in the judicial and employment systems. These are heavily tilted against black folks.

Look at your claims of "blacks need more fathers" you don't see how the criminal justice system and employment systems, and the legacy of the educational systems, would create a situation where a father wouldn't be able to be available as often? It's already well known that crime and poverty are intricately related, in all society, across the planet, for the history of humanity, and I don't think anyone disputes at this point that slavery and jim crow did an excellent job of stripping the black community of wealth directly, and of the opportunities to gain wealth.

It's not really difficult to understand, you just have to get over the mental block of feeling personally offended at the realization that a lot of white people are racist against blacks, and possibly most in America were racist until earlier in our lifetimes.

Think of the gays... growing up, it was unquestionable that the vast majority of people did not like gays, I myself would mock people who seemed even a little gay, I was 100% a homophobe. I changed my views in college, as most people have it seemed, but it's not an offense to be honest about how things were.

7/21/2015 3:18:00 PM

Quote :

"synapse I don’t use strawmen arguments. "

Quote :

"i've never once claimed it was 100% up to white people, or that it's 100% white people's fault, and you know this"

You almost use them exclusively tbh

7/21/2015 3:20:45 PM

Quote :

"Im sure they would but it wouldnt be because they want to live with others like them"

How come "being like them" doesn't include rich? If you're a rich black person, I bet you would prefer to be around other rich people, regardless of their race, rather than be around poor people of the same race.

7/21/2015 3:22:38 PM

Quote :

"STRAW MEN ARGUMENTS"

7/21/2015 3:25:38 PM

Quote :

"I'm not saying housing discrimination doesn't exist, but every attempt to fix will just cause another problem. Law of unintended consequences."

this is like saying "sure, the status quo isn't good, but we shouldn't upset the status quo"

7/21/2015 3:26:49 PM

Quote :

"Ha, i've never once claimed it was 100% up to white people, or that it's 100% white people's fault, and you know this, but it doesn't feed your hate to admit it."

Yet that was the first time ITT you indicated ANYTHING other than white people were to blame for perpetuating the problem. You don't explicitly say "100%" in your posts, but 100% of the blame you assign to your posts is on society and white people:

Quote :

""Blacks are poorer because of blatant racism by society and the government""

Quote :

"“it's not a racist society in 2015 that's to blame, it's the racist society up to the ~80s that's to blame.”"

Quote :

"complete disregard for Af. Americans prior to 1968 (federally) through today (society as a whole)."

Quote :

"C'mon white people, black people just want to be friends!"

Quote :

"communities where people are drawn to those behaviors were functionally created by white people. The people in those communities don't want that kind of behavior any more than you, they just aren't given the tools to fight those behaviors because of people like you"

Quote :

"But the problems you cite as the primary root causes are just wrong, and literally all the data indicate this."

What are you talking about? What data indicating what? Too vague.

7/21/2015 3:48:40 PM

Quote :

"You don't explicitly say "100%" in your posts, but 100% of the blame you assign to your posts is on society and white people:"

He doesn't even say "white people" in most of those posts you quoted

You're not very good at this.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 3:57 PM. Reason : Good effort at adding "society" next to "white people" tho]

7/21/2015 3:55:49 PM

HUR what brand and flavor do you vape

or is it just exclusively dicks all day

7/21/2015 3:57:47 PM

^^^ ha you posted a lot of quotes of me not saying the problem is 100% white people o.O

regarding data, just look at the correlation of poverty with the things you claim are the "real" problem, and then consider where this poverty came from.

It's also worth looking at studies of the effect of expectations, and consider how societal racism (exactly like the things you say) would affect this.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 3:58 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2015 3:58:45 PM

Quote :

"ha you posted a lot of quotes of me not saying the problem is 100% white people "

Yeah and then added the word society to his lame strawman since it was in the quotes

7/21/2015 4:01:18 PM

ha JCE seems like a good guy, he just doesn't seem to want to accept how pervasive racism really was, or how significant its impact is.

7/21/2015 4:06:25 PM

Quote :

"He doesn't even say "white people" in most of those posts you quoted"

Quote :

"ha you posted a lot of quotes of me not saying the problem is 100% white people"

References to government, society, white people, the majority, all pretty much equate to white people in a thread called "White Privilege".

Don't be upset I shot down your garbage strawman accusation though.

7/21/2015 4:07:22 PM

Quote :

"References...to white people...equate to white people"

BRILLIANT!

7/21/2015 4:09:25 PM

Quote :

"he just doesn't seem to want to accept how pervasive racism really was"

switching from "is" to "was" now?

I'll chalk that up as a win too.

7/21/2015 4:12:42 PM

^^^ ... but not the 100% part. You asserted that my position has been that the problem is 100% white people, but this has never, in my entire life, been my position.

Also, do you not realize the irony that you equate government and society with "white people" when the black community has been here as long or longer than the families of many white people?

^ ha, yeah, as I've said many times, the nature of racism is different now than it was then. The effects of racism are still very pervasive, and up to 25% of white people being racist is a big problem, but it's not the half of white people in the early 90s, or 80% in the preceding decades.

Anyway, you seem to be stuck in some type of brain loop, you need to cool down. Your bizarre insistence that i've been saying white people are 100% the problem is actually pretty immaterial to what I've been saying.

[Edited on July 21, 2015 at 4:17 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2015 4:14:03 PM

^^ It's better now. Dur.

7/21/2015 4:15:12 PM

Quote :

"education is the key to success, and a high school education is not a white privilege. White privilege and systematic racism exist, they account for a disparity of wealth, but in 2015 they aren't preventing minorities from escaping poverty. Yes racism caused the cycle of poverty, but in 2015 the means are there for anyone of any race to escape poverty. Privilege isn't a valid excuse if you haven't passed K-12"

Agree?

7/21/2015 4:20:11 PM

did you not read the article i posted earlier?

you're fucking stupid, man

7/21/2015 4:34:52 PM

I'd like to open the discussion regarding Hispanic Americans. We are talking about "white privilege", many of these don't speak the language, many aren't even citizens thus even face legit discrimination if here illegally, come from zero wealth, etc

7/21/2015 5:28:29 PM

HUR = hate/urination/racism EXPOSED?!?!?!!!

7/21/2015 5:34:43 PM

unjust, maybe?

I didn't put too much thought into the U part :3

7/21/2015 5:39:35 PM

^^^^ ?

7/21/2015 5:41:29 PM

you keep insisting that racism/discrimination isn't a problem in 2015. are you blind or incapable of reading?

7/21/2015 6:25:42 PM

oh nvm sorry

7/21/2015 6:49:22 PM

I don't think he ever said racism wasn't a problem in 2015. I think what he's trying to say is that today, there is just as much blame within the minority community as there is for systemic, institutionalized racism.

I don't agree or disagree, just rehashing what he's said in a different way.

7/21/2015 6:51:26 PM

Quote :

"I don't think he ever said racism wasn't a problem in 2015."

Yet he is calling me stupid, blind, and incapable of reading.

7/21/2015 6:56:41 PM