Quote :

"Hitler did the same thing."

i hate people like you.

are you saying that people who argue that abortion isnt wrong are like hitler?

8/5/2005 1:30:37 AM

!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!GODWIN'S LAW!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!

8/5/2005 1:42:57 AM

Quote :

"My gallbladder has human DNA, does that mean when they take it out they have to keep it on life support?...Secondly your arguement could be used to give humanity to all sorts of inhuman things. Like sperm or eggs or hearts or ears or or all sorts of human body parts."

So, Kris, at what point is the fetus not on par with just another body part?

8/5/2005 2:09:11 AM

someone tell me WHY a fetus is human life with all the rights when other human things that have the potential for human life, like two seperate sperm and egg, or a stem cell that could be cloned, is not?

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 2:17 AM. Reason : 23]

8/5/2005 2:17:35 AM

It's a grey line, but somewhere well into the third trimester. Basically when it can physically survive on it's own and it no longer needs to rely on a host.

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 2:21 AM. Reason : ]

8/5/2005 2:20:35 AM

Quote :

"someone tell me WHY a fetus is human life with all the rights when other human things that have the potential for human life, like two seperate sperm and egg, or a stem cell that could be cloned, is not?"

Because a fetus will, barring some kind of miscarraige-type problem or other interference, become, beyond a shadow of a doubt, an individual human (I say beyond a shadow of a doubt because although I feel that even the smallest zygote is human, not everyone else does...hopefully we can all agree that at some point in our development on earth, we become individual humans). Spem or egg, left to themselves will never become a human. I personally don't know much about stem-cells, although I would assume that if left to themselves, they don't become people.

That's why, if for no other reason. Whether the fact that the fetus will probably survive to become an individual is reason enough to give it basic human rights is debated. I think it's reason enough.

8/5/2005 2:27:21 AM

Quote :

"It's a grey line, but somewhere well into the third trimester. Basically when it can physically survive on it's own and it no longer needs to rely on a host."

Oh, ok, I see. So this fetus from a 22nd week abortion (still in the 2nd trimester) can be put on par with just another body part.




[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 3:00 AM. Reason : settings]

8/5/2005 2:35:26 AM

Go go go go shock value!

Personally, I'm only a "hardcore abortion supporter" when its within the first month. But thats just me.

How many of you people are actually against the RU-whatever pill? Or first 5 week abortions?

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 8:17 AM. Reason : ed]

8/5/2005 7:56:56 AM

I'd say only a very vocal minority of right wing pro lifers are against such early terminations. And only an equally vocal minority on the left are in favor of very late abortions unless there are life threatening circumstances. It's just that those of us in the middle aren't nearly as loud.

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 8:25 AM. Reason : /]

8/5/2005 8:24:38 AM

^^ Shock value? Yeah it is shocking isn't it? The whole issue is shocking.

8/5/2005 10:45:38 AM

Quote :

"How many of you people are actually against the RU-whatever pill? Or first 5 week abortions?"

I'm interested in your opinions on these.

8/5/2005 10:54:10 AM

I am for emergency contraception as long as there is no fertilization. As soon as the independent egg becomes a zygote, I am against any sort of termination.

However, I can see a FEW cases where abortion might be tolerated... if it endangers the life of the mother, or if a woman is raped.

Besides that, it should not be an excuse for you to get out of your responsibility. Not ready to be an adult. Don't play like an adult.

8/5/2005 11:17:43 AM

Adoption is also a way to get out of responsibility.

As I've stated before, once we perfect birth control this won't be a problem anymore.

8/5/2005 11:22:48 AM

Adoption doesn't terminate a life and is a much better alternative.

I'm mixed about forced contraception. I mean, if you had to pass a class to become a parent, no doubt the country would be better and if you didn't pass, you were made to take contraceptives...

Of course, people should have the freedom to reproduce when they would like... but why do you have to have a license to do anything in today's world but your most important job, being a parent, it taken way too lightly by way too many.

8/5/2005 11:28:16 AM

Quote :

"Because a fetus will, barring some kind of miscarraige-type problem or other interference, become, beyond a shadow of a doubt, an individual human"

You can say the same thing about an egg put in a pile of semen, does that mean you think a period in jizz is a person?

Quote :

"Oh, ok, I see. So this fetus from a 22nd week abortion (still in the 2nd trimester) can be put on par with just another body part."

I don't care what it looks like. You ever seen a used tampoon? That shit is gross too.

Quote :

"As soon as the independent egg becomes a zygote, I am against any sort of termination."

What makes this any different that a sperm and an egg right next to each other? It's just one step back.

Quote :

"Adoption doesn't terminate a life and is a much better alternative."

It creates all sorts of other problems. I don't see any reason why a woman should be forced to suffer all kinds of emotion trauma just because you believe for some reason that a pile of spunk and a period is a person.

8/5/2005 12:40:23 PM

dont fucking have sex if you cant handle the responsibilites that come along with it

goddamn

/thread

8/5/2005 12:43:08 PM

actually lets just get everyone to stop having sex, they'll be no more std's no more unwanted pregnancys, no more unwed mothers

but unfortunately sex happens

8/5/2005 12:47:56 PM

im not saying stop having sex

if you do, just be the adult you're supposed to be and own up to some shit

8/5/2005 12:50:04 PM

unfortunately people will have sex before they are ready to deal with it, it's going to happen

and I can't see any reason to ruin these people's lives just because you think a period in spunk is a human being.

8/5/2005 12:53:54 PM

Don't fucking tell me whether or not I should be having sex.

Its none of your business.

/eggon

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 12:57 PM. Reason : ed]

8/5/2005 12:55:08 PM

its not any of my business

you have every right to fuck up your life

8/5/2005 12:57:23 PM

To all you abortion supporters, please make sure you tell your kids when you have them that they are not important to you. The only thing that is important is pleasing yourself. Make sure you tell them that if they would have come along a couple years earlier, you would have killed them so that they would not burden your life.

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 6:56 PM. Reason : .]

8/5/2005 6:55:49 PM

Quote :

"To all you abortion supporters, please make sure you tell your kids when you have them that they are not important to you."

My kids will be important to me, that's why I am going to wait untill I am ready to take care of them. If I have kids I don't want them forced on me. I want to be able to say "I want kids", not "I don't want kids but I have to have them".

Quote :

"Make sure you tell them that if they would have come along a couple years earlier, you would have killed them so that they would not burden your life."

This is what pro lifers are doing. Forcing people who don't want kids to have them.

8/5/2005 7:02:32 PM

Quote :

"My kids will be important to me, that's why I am going to wait untill I am ready to take care of them. "

So your kids are important to you, but not imporant enough for you to stop having your fun to make sure you dont have to kill them?

Quote :

"This is what pro lifers are doing. Forcing people who don't want kids to have them."

You mean pro lifers are forcing you not to have your fun before you are ready to have kids dont you?

8/5/2005 7:16:22 PM

Quote :

"So your kids are important to you, but not imporant enough for you to stop having your fun to make sure you dont have to kill them?"

I'm not killing anything. If my girlfriend had an abortion she'd simply be surgically removing a period. It hasn't happened yet, but I have the coathanger picked out anyways, because I don't wear a rubber and I'm not sure she always remebers to take those birth control pills.

Quote :

"You mean pro lifers are forcing you not to have your fun before you are ready to have kids dont you?"

No, if prolifers ever had abortion outlawed, that doesn't mean they are outlawing sex. Sex will still happen, youll just have a bunch of parents who have children they don't want and aren't ready to support. You aren't preventing sex, your forcing children on people who don't want them.

8/5/2005 7:28:13 PM

So in essance, you are forcing people to rethink sex, just like people years ago had to do before abortions were able to take place.

8/5/2005 7:31:46 PM

Yeah, like just STD's have made people rethink sex

Outlawed abortions will result in more children, not less sex.

8/5/2005 7:39:23 PM

Kris is right. Nobody is going to stop having sex.

Quote :

"To all you abortion supporters, please make sure you tell your kids when you have them that they are not important to you. The only thing that is important is pleasing yourself. Make sure you tell them that if they would have come along a couple years earlier, you would have killed them so that they would not burden your life."

Fuck you. You act like people that have kids do it totally altruisticly. That isn't the fucking case AT ALL. You people are the next Taliban.

[Edited on August 5, 2005 at 8:10 PM. Reason : ed]

8/5/2005 8:07:42 PM

Outlawing abortion just means my lifelong dream of being a back-alley abortionist will come to fruition.

8/5/2005 8:10:58 PM

Quote :

"You can say the same thing about an egg put in a pile of semen, does that mean you think a period in jizz is a person?"

If they aren't in a uterus, there is no chance of this becoming a person.

Quote :

"I don't care what it looks like. You ever seen a used tampoon? That shit is gross too."

If I understood your point, I would respond.

Quote :

"What makes this any different that [sic] a sperm and an egg right next to each other? It's just one step back."

These two things by themselves, even if near one another, will never become a person. The only point at which this becomes an issue is when they meet. That is the starting place. It doesn't matter what the cells are doing before that.

Quote :

"It creates all sorts of other problems. I don't see any reason why a woman should be forced to suffer all kinds of emotion trauma just because you believe for some reason that a pile of spunk and a period is a person. "

Some would argue that abortion causes more emotional trauma to the woman than carrying a child to term.

Quote :

"...I can't see any reason to ruin these people's lives..."

Please tell me where you heard that people's lives are ruined by carrying a child to term and then putting the child up for adoption.

Quote :

"If my girlfriend had an abortion she'd simply be surgically removing a period."

It's a wonder you can sleep at night.

Quote :

"your [sic] forcing children on people who don't want them."

Adoption completely does away with forcing a child on the biological parents.

Quote :

"Outlawed abortions will result in more children, not less sex."

I fail to see the problem.

8/5/2005 11:23:44 PM

Whoa... I think that's the first time I've seen [sic] used in t3h Soap Box.

8/6/2005 12:20:07 AM

Quote :

"If they aren't in a uterus, there is no chance of this becoming a person. "

tell it to jerry fallwell. he says since it COULD be put in a uterus. its a person.

8/6/2005 12:21:57 AM

Quote :

"tell it to jerry fallwell. he says since it COULD be put in a uterus. its a person."

I don't care what. he has to say about. anything.

8/6/2005 12:24:58 AM

someone should tell him glutony is a sin

8/6/2005 12:39:58 AM

Quote :

"If they aren't in a uterus, there is no chance of this becoming a person."

So location is the determining factor on whether or not something is a person or not?

Quote :

"These two things by themselves, even if near one another, will never become a person."

Sure they will, the sperm will swim to the egg and viola, you have a zygote. They are just in different stages.

Quote :

"That is the starting place."

Why? you randomly pick one place and say "THATS WHERE LIFE STARTS" without any reason to do so.

Quote :

"Some would argue that abortion causes more emotional trauma to the woman than carrying a child to term."

And some people are idiots.

Quote :

"Adoption completely does away with forcing a child on the biological parents."

Adoption also causes all sorts of other problems. I'd rather not bring a child in this world than leave him an orphan wondering why his parents abandoned him, and he'll probably want to end up meeting his biological parents, putting me in another situation I don't have to deal with.

8/6/2005 1:00:21 AM

dblpst

[Edited on August 6, 2005 at 1:00 AM. Reason : ]

8/6/2005 1:00:21 AM

Without kids, who would we teach to hate things?

8/6/2005 1:25:27 AM

Quote :

"So location is the determining factor on whether or not something is a person or not?"

If it isn't in a uterus, it won't ever become a person. The problem with the abortion debate is agreeing on the premise that the fetus is a person. Although I feel that it is, in order to debate anyone who thinks it isn't, we must agree that a fetus, barring some intervention or mishap, will be born and will then become a person. So, in order for it to even stay on the road to becoming a person, it has to be in a uterus.

Quote :

"Sure they will, the sperm will swim to the egg and viola, you have a zygote. They are just in different stages."

That's why I fucking said THESE TWO THINGS BY THEMSELVES. An egg will not become a person BY ITSELF unles you believe in fucking JESUS. Life is formed only once they have met because the cell is whole and begins to divide on its own with the eventual consequence of a new individual human being made.

Quote :

"Why? you randomly pick one place and say "THATS WHERE LIFE STARTS" without any reason to do so."

see above

8/6/2005 1:26:26 AM

Quote :

"Without kids, who would we teach to hate things?"

Penguins, perhaps?

8/6/2005 1:47:58 AM

Quote :

"If it isn't in a uterus, it won't ever become a person."

so a zygote outside a uterus is just a pile of goop, but THE EXACT SAME goop put inside a uterus is a person? I just want to get this straight, you are a human being when you are at point A, but when you are a point B you are just a pile of crap?

Quote :

"Although I feel that it is, in order to debate anyone who thinks it isn't, we must agree that a fetus, barring some intervention or mishap, will be born and will then become a person."

So will a load of spunk freshly splooged into a woman's vagina. So what? What makes one a person and one just a load of spunk? A position on the same timeline?

Quote :

"That's why I fucking said THESE TWO THINGS BY THEMSELVES."

So, this here is a person:


but this isn't:


Exactly when does it happen? is it when the sperm just touches the egg? Is it when the tail falls off? Could you draw the line for me here on this picture?

8/6/2005 1:58:39 AM

My goal in life is now to teach a group of emperor penguins that royal penguins are a drain on penguin society.

8/6/2005 2:00:26 AM

Google images is a wond'rous thing.

It teaches me that there are horrible fucking webcomics that people make every day.

8/6/2005 2:04:08 AM

Are penguins pro-choice or pro-life?

8/6/2005 2:07:04 AM

they lack a conscience, a sense of a morals, and a vocalized respect for life

so naturally, they're pro-choice.

[Edited on August 6, 2005 at 2:09 AM. Reason : hehe]

8/6/2005 2:08:58 AM

Right there.

Quote :

"so a zygote outside a uterus is just a pile of goop, but THE EXACT SAME goop put inside a uterus is a person? I just want to get this straight, you are a human being when you are at point A, but when you are a point B you are just a pile of crap?"

There is no point in worrying about the "pile of goop" outside the uterus because nothing will ever come of it. I concern myself with the zygotes inside the uterus; they will become people. You can continue to make your distracted arguments about semen and mentruation, but to get back to the original debate, I am talking about humans in uteruses that are killed via abortion. My attempt to find a common ground has been lost on you, so we'll just go back to the same old rock and hardplace non-premise-agreeing debate.

Quote :

"So will a load of spunk freshly splooged into a woman's vagina. So what? What makes one a person and one just a load of spunk? A position on the same timeline?"

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

8/6/2005 2:10:28 AM

ah-hem

that's pro-abortion we don't allow any of that level-headed non-sensasionalist speak here

8/6/2005 2:11:56 AM

snap dude my bad

8/6/2005 2:12:37 AM

Quote :

"Right there."

Why there? Wouldn't any of the other spots meet your criteria? They are in a uterus, they will become a child withstanding any miscarriage or birth troubles. exactly what's the criteria here?

Quote :

"There is no point in worrying about the "pile of goop" outside the uterus because nothing will ever come of it."

It will probably be able to be grown outside of the uterus in a few years, what would it be then? Would it be a child? It would certainly be like one in any other way.

8/6/2005 2:15:15 AM

i think childbirth begins at the childbirth of the parent

so you get a lovely chicken and egg situation that goes all the way back to adam and eve

thus making god the ultimate life-giver and setting this whole process in motion.

8/6/2005 2:18:06 AM

for real, religion needs not be involved. it is not a religious matter, and i don't think anyone should attempt to force their beliefs on others. kris, you cannot seriously say that a 8 month, 30 day old baby, is not a human being. if it is a human being at this point, when did it become one? i think this is the major issue of the abortion argument. lets think about how you are prounced dead...if your heart is not beating and you have no pulse. how about we apply this to an unborn child. if a heart is beating, it is considered alive. i think this is a common ground that can be understood by either side. although it cannot survive on its own, neither can someone who has just went into cardiac arrest and needs to be shocked.

8/6/2005 2:52:29 AM