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 Message Boards » » why we should legalize paying collegiate athletes Page 1 2 [3] 4 5, Prev Next  
Førte
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if they know they can't go back after 7 (though I remember fountain being open later than that), are they too proud to stuff their pockets with food before they leave? I did that shit all the time

4/8/2014 12:48:34 PM

ctnz71
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I was the freaking manager for the volleyball team and I could eat all I wanted to at case and had money to spend every semester at Campus stores. If this kid is ever hungry it is his own fault

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason : K]

4/8/2014 12:50:13 PM

thegoodlife3
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his own fault that he grew up with poverty and that his family is unable to support him after he leaves for college?

hell, everyone's favorite (including mine), Steve Logan, is on the record as saying that in multiple instances he bought his players food and coats, because he couldn't live with himself knowing his guys were going hungry and/or cold, NCAA be damned

I didn't even see this little gem:

Quote :
"and had money to spend every semester at Campus stores. If this kid is ever hungry it is his own fault"


you kind of destroyed your argument. the point is that a good amount of these kids have zero money. none.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 12:58 PM. Reason : yeah]

4/8/2014 12:56:39 PM

Bullet
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( i think he meant food-credit that comes with most meal plans and probably with his scholarship)

4/8/2014 1:01:28 PM

Førte
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board bucks

4/8/2014 1:06:47 PM

thegoodlife3
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apologies for mis-interpreting if that's the case

but who knows what each schools policy is for that

I'm sure they all aren't the same

4/8/2014 1:17:10 PM

Førte
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I would imagine most of the major conference schools are the same, where there are meal plans with a certain number of "visits" to a dining hall per week, or an "unlimited" pass (which, at least when I went to State, the student athletes had) where you could go at every meal, every day. also, not sure if this was common or not, but the "visit" also counted towards I think 5 dollars worth of food at a non-dining hall restaurant (Taco Bell, Chick Fil A, Lil Dinos, Wolves Den). that said, it was pretty easy to stock up on food for the nights/weekends using even the most basic of meal plans (I think the cheapest one was 7 meals and 100 board bucks). these guys, honestly, just aren't smart enough to figure out how to game the system if they can't figure out how to eat well on what is likely an unlimited meal plan

that being said, they're just tugging at the ol heart strings to justify the kickbacks they get from boosters and their desire to get paid outside their scholarship.

4/8/2014 1:25:11 PM

NyM410
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^^ you didn't miss the point. You know exactly what he meant but apparently everyone else needs to take things literally.

Of course he has a food plan and has access to the best dining hall on campus. He's talking about supplemental money to be able to afford food, etc after all of that is done for the day.

You know, because he isn't allowed to work and make money on his own like any other student on campus is. Not to mention that part of his "job" is to go to the gym after class and workout until 9 or 10pm every night. It's not too difficult to understand what he was saying.

Shabazz seems to be smarter than your average TWW sports talk poster from what I can tell.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 1:57 PM. Reason : and napier has been outspoken to the ncaa on MULTIPLE fronts (and most experts agree with him)]

4/8/2014 1:56:36 PM

tower
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uconn players are starving and cant read

they're basically slaves

4/8/2014 3:08:17 PM

modlin
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There's a few rules about it, but college athletes can have jobs and earn money outside of their scholarship.

4/8/2014 3:13:44 PM

Førte
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Quote :
"supplemental money to be able to afford food, etc "


gets a free education, room and board with utilities, meal plan, books (which can be sold back at the end of the semester for, gasp, money), and needs money for "etc". yeah, ok, you convinced me.

4/8/2014 3:14:05 PM

BigMan157
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are non-scholarship players allowed to work?

4/8/2014 3:18:30 PM

ndmetcal
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The only thing that confuses me about the paying college athletes discussion is how adamant some people are against college athletes getting any form of direct payment. I mean, I get why college presidents & NCAA officials are against it, cause it could mean less money going their own way. But Random Joe being not just against it, but vehemently against it, just strikes me as kind of odd

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 3:33 PM. Reason : needed another comma]

4/8/2014 3:32:55 PM

modlin
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^^Yes

4/8/2014 3:49:45 PM

BanjoMan
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I am sure that all the NCAA has to do is just legalize and support the system that is prolly already in place where highschool athletes are scouted, ranked and recruited (ahem...paid) accordingly. It is definitely the best way to go as the current system now just completely bankroles off of these guys and they get no cut from it, which would be fine except that the coaches and and admin people are raking in multimillion dollar a year contracts off of team success.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 4:43 PM. Reason : c]

4/8/2014 4:42:47 PM

BJCaudill21
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I feel like the biggest problem is how late his dining hall is open. Like nym already said, he probably wakes up early for workouts or has to go late, eat, class, eat, practice, eat, then either workout or do school work, and yeah if nothing's open then I could see him being hungry. Seems like it'd be pretty easy to make dining halls open to athletes (or is that some unfair benefit) til later

4/8/2014 5:15:55 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Quote :
"The only thing that confuses me about the paying college athletes discussion is how adamant some people are against college athletes getting any form of direct payment. I mean, I get why college presidents & NCAA officials are against it, cause it could mean less money going their own way. But Random Joe being not just against it, but vehemently against it, just strikes me as kind of odd"


Because then it just becomes a money deal for who wins (well, far more than it is now).

Here's my idea for what I would do if I was made sports dictator:

Quote :
"-The college football program is a club independent of the university whose costs are fully covered by boosters, ticket sales, sponsorship, and such, whether university wants to help or not is their choice.

-This club pays a license fee to use the university name (that should be worth huge money, Tuscaloosa Elephants: 14 fans show up, Alabama Crimson Tide: sells out Bryant-Denny).

-This club pays rent to use the university stadium in cases where university owns said stadium.

-This club covers the football players' room and board including school, if the club wants to pay the players money on top of that, they can.

-Said club no longer has tax exemption for generated revenues and donations to college sports are not tax deductible.

-No more bullcrap with academics since the university receives the same money either way. If the player goes to school and puts in no effort, he flunks out. If the player goes to school and puts in effort, he gets a degree. College football is a taxing outside activity, but the player having to juggle football with school and no outside help makes the football player no different than a guy in the marching band for instance. I play rugby union on my own time for free and have to juggle that with having a job and getting my Master's Degree as well. So can a 20-year-old football player.

-Club personnel costs covered by boosters and such in aforementioned club and they can fire at will. The personnel are no longer university employees."


What's wrong with that? Now I know that will never happen unless some powerbroker reads this post or I send it to people in power and they take kindly to it, but most of the problems that exist in modern college sports would be removed with that solution.

In other words, college football would become more or less like college club rugby or college club ultimate frisbee, internally responsible for their own revenue and spending. But a lot of said football programs are going to learn the meaning of stretching a dime because they can't keep up with the Joneses. N.C. State for instance would be a have not, there's no way we could compete with the SEC, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Florida State, etc. So either we'd bankrupt ourselves trying to keep up and win (because players are going to go to the school that pays the most, which I think would be Notre Dame because they have super-rich alumni) or we become like FCS Division teams and are resigned to losing by 50 points everytime we play those teams. And what's wrong with that? Fucking Chuck Amato had all this money spent on our facilities to make us an elite football program, and for what has it resulted in? NOTHING! What did Butch Davis-inspired investments result in for Carolina? NOTHING! And that would be pretty much two-thirds of the BCS schools that become defined have nots because they can't afford to be any better unless they strike it lucky one year on a few guys in high school all the bigshots ignored.

I still don't understand how the colleges can legally pay players according to federal law in respect to Title IX. Title IX is about equivalence of educational opportunity, that's all it is about and is completely misunderstood by a lot of people, which is why sports becomes involved because of sports scholarships. So unless they pay these players but remove the scholarship entirely, I don't know what they do, they're not going to pay softball players because no one shows up to softball games. (And non-revenue sports will disappear if you take the money funding them and give it to football and basketball players. Not saying it's wrong, not saying it's right, just pointing it out.)

What would occur in this amateurism-to-professionalism transition? We do have one example from the past: rugby union around the world was amateur until 1995. Since that transition, a lot of clubs have completely disappeared or they're so far away from the top they'll never return. Now universities won't disappear, but their football teams will or they'll drop down away from the top permanently.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 6:08 PM. Reason : /]

4/8/2014 5:54:45 PM

BanjoMan
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^that solution would only lead to the enventual split or dissaociation ofthe university from that club.

4/8/2014 6:06:07 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Fine by me. People want it to be the minor leagues, make it the minor leagues. And they're not allowed to complain in the future when they get what they ask for.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 6:12 PM. Reason : .]

4/8/2014 6:09:03 PM

BanjoMan
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so your solution is to just kill NCAA sports.

4/8/2014 6:18:25 PM

Flyin Ryan
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That's the solution players, the media, and some fans want.

4/8/2014 6:23:49 PM

BanjoMan
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Like I said, just legalise the system that they are already using. They can also adopt the NBAPA deals where % of net income is divided up per player. No Need to destroy NCAA.

4/8/2014 6:25:56 PM

tower
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it's the end game

4/8/2014 6:26:08 PM

dtownral
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<----- this fan wants "college" sports completely dissociated from colleges and universities

4/8/2014 6:26:15 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Quote :
"They can also adopt the NBAPA deals where % of net income is divided up per player."


so you think the basketball player at Grambling is going to be paid the same as the basketball player at North Carolina?

You say the NBAPA, that's a union that collectively bargains this contract. Who is in this union? Is it only a small sect of teams (a conference)? Is it just the individuals of each university? Is it all of Division I? Does it incorporate multiple sports or just football and men's basketball or will they keep themselves separate from one another? Unions are built on the principle of equality amongst all members, so you can't argue for Group A and Group B in the union, you're arguing for everyone and they're all treated as equals, regardless of if one guy is the best quarterback in college football or he is the punter for a mid-level school.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 6:37 PM. Reason : /]

4/8/2014 6:28:43 PM

BanjoMan
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The NCAA can come to an agreement with the colleges on what to pay based off of the teams net profit. That way even the seat warmers get a little.

Quote :
"The only thing that confuses me about the paying college athletes discussion is how adamant some people are against college athletes getting any form of direct payment."


Exactly, the whole honor in amateurism argument only goes so far untill you realize that these guys are getting totally screwed. It is not even what the uni makes, it goes to games and jerseys and what not. It is just embarassing.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 6:42 PM. Reason : a]

4/8/2014 6:40:36 PM

Flyin Ryan
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The colleges now can't agree on having the same common education requirements because that's considered an area of university sovereignty. I've read State fans and Carolina fans bitch for years about ECU's education requirements for their players. You think they're all going to agree on an upper limit to pay? (bearing in mind the influence of state governments on state-owned schools because governors and legislators are never self-serving or grandstanding, the ACC had their original expansion fucked up by the Governor of Virginia) With all due respect, you're either naïve, full of shit, or both.

Let's just look at football. What would be the ACC decision on this that would be unanimous on how much to pay? On one end you have Florida State and Clemson and Virginia Tech that want to compete with SEC schools for talent, and SEC will either offer the most money or near there so they can win their national championships because that's the only reason some of those universities and their fanbases have to live for. At the other end you'll have poor schools like Wake Forest, Duke, and Boston College that don't have much to offer because they have small fanbases, and them paying what Florida State wants to pay could drive the program bankrupt.

And this will be an arms race, because every alumni base wants to win. Every school is going to have to make a choice: do we attempt to keep up and drive ourselves bankrupt for the odd chance of success, or do we assign our own spending limit and accept that when we play the power teams we're losing by 30 points?

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 7:05 PM. Reason : /]

4/8/2014 6:46:42 PM

BanjoMan
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I think that it would amount to be some bs token percentage that each conference will agree on. Small enough that everybody gets a piece of the pie, but not large enough to be a deal breaker. Be real here, athletes are already drawn to major conferences. So if the SEC ends up offering more than the ACC, I just can't see that changing things in the long run. Also, the NCAA definitely has the capabilities to develop formulas that would give reasonable % out to serve as a starting point. At some point there may need to be student unions, but the funny thing is that student organizations are already a major part of the traditional college experience, so why not add a union?

The real key here is offering payments to recruits that they deserve in the form of contracts. Again, this system already exists, so just legalize it.


[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 7:06 PM. Reason : z]

4/8/2014 7:00:03 PM

Flyin Ryan
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Sorry, I've actually paid attention to the political machinations and realignment of college athletics in the last 15 years.

[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 7:12 PM. Reason : /]

4/8/2014 7:10:38 PM

BanjoMan
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a lot of times the most practical solutions are the ones least used

(like why we don't legalise MJ and use the tax money to treat drug addiction)



[Edited on April 8, 2014 at 7:18 PM. Reason : h]

4/8/2014 7:17:34 PM

Bullet
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/15/us/ncaa-athlete-meals/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Quote :
"The NCAA on Tuesday proposed that athletes receive unlimited meals and snacks, the collegiate sports organization said in a news release."

4/16/2014 12:44:25 PM

NyM410
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It was in the works for awhile.

I see most people saying it was "because of Napier" which isn't true. Also I see narcissistic Calipari trying to claim credit

4/16/2014 2:00:12 PM

ndmetcal
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too little, too late

4/16/2014 2:01:17 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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Those unlimited snacks are gonna hurt us against the cap. May need to shed some big contracts and pick up a junior in the Rule 5 draft

4/16/2014 2:29:22 PM

GingaNinja
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Lucky student athletes

4/16/2014 2:32:56 PM

PackGuitar
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so they start selling their food/snacks to friends for money

4/16/2014 2:38:56 PM

thegoodlife3
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I'm sure we all knew at least one snack dealer in our day

4/16/2014 6:18:13 PM

TreeTwista10
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I bet Sean May never went to bed hungry

4/16/2014 10:27:43 PM

The E Man
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UNLIMITED PIZZA ROLLS

4/16/2014 11:54:46 PM

KeB
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^^I think we have given up the right to Sean May jokes when we started putting BeeJay Anya on the court...

4/17/2014 12:24:39 AM

WolfPack2017
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My question is why are non-'student' athletes so concerned about them getting additional benefits? They are already getting a lot of benefits. I mean, they are given a free education with all these other amenities. If they decide to not take advantage of those, then that's their fault. The NCAA is not a minor league, and these 'student' athletes need to recognize that their first job is being a student. Getting a scholarship is a gateway to getting an education, not the other way around.

This report is really fantastic, http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Are-a-Cash-Cow2.aspx

So tell me, how could we actually pay the players if we are subsidizing them already?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/ ----we're number 46 on that list.

So I can see that we are in fact making money (even though the university subsidizes the program for more than it makes).


The way I see it is that I am here to get an education, which is the exact purpose of this institution. If an athlete gets a scholarship here, then it is their job to be a student and then be an athlete. They (scholarship athletes) are being given an express ride of no debt to an education. So what if they can't work another job, I have to work two jobs while I'm still going further in debt. If we start paying them, then they will not be students and they will take their classes even less seriously (if they take them seriously at all right now). The point is that they are not actual workers, they are being given a scholarship and two great opportunities (1. to get an education from a great university, and 2. showcase their talents for the major leagues). Regular students who get scholarships have to do work and extracurricular's (given it might not be as physically tough, they can be mentally and physically demanding) to keep their scholarships (such as the Park Scholarship, Caldwell Fellow, and the Goodnight Scholarship), so the athletes should understand that them training, playing games, and all of the stuff they have to do is the price for their scholarship and opportunities. If they can't handle the work that they have to put in, then they don't deserve the opportunities that have been offered to them.

Now, I can understand that many athletes are poor, but if they are given all of these things (dinning dollars, etc.) then they can survive. I have no spending money at all, so I have to survive off going to the dining hall three times a day. However, I'm sure that there is an argument here that I am unaware of, but I find this argument baseless for now.


I have a few proposed ideas:

1.) Abolish sports from Universities and make the NCAA a minor league to all sports. This way the athletes can be paid and they won't have to go through the rigors of classes, unless if they choose to attend a university which would be separate of the team they're on.

2.) Force student athletes to complete their time in school for all four years. This way they actually have to try to get their degree. This would be better for the athletes since it would allow them to develop more, and they would have a better chance at a degree (which might come handy down the line).

3.) Let the athletes be paid, but the Athletic Department will no longer be subsidized as it will be a pay for work program. This way the school will not have to have involvement with the workings of the AD, and the athletes can be paid. If the AD can't stay afloat this way, then this proves that student athletes should not be paid (if they AD can't keep itself afloat without the University subsidizing it, then players should not be compensated more).

4/17/2014 1:12:25 PM

Fry
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i don't like the deal that i signed and accepted to attend your school

4/17/2014 1:28:52 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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None of this shit will matter in 10 years anyway once all the football concussion lawsuits bankrupt the NCAA and all athletic departments.

4/17/2014 2:18:14 PM

WolfPack2017
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The one thing that I think should be mandatory is that AD's and Universities should be responsible for all medical costs or anything that was caused while the athletes played at the university. This is mainly what the football players at NW were fighting for, and I think this is important. Athletes in college are not workers, but they need to be protected from being screwed by medical costs. Though that's more of a problem with this nation and how we don't have a universal health care system.

4/17/2014 3:04:10 PM

Fry
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make the insurance an option for the universities. if it's an allowed "benefit" per NCAA, then schools will compete to provide better insurance plans for incoming athletes to lure recruits.

a. only the dumbest 1% doesn't know they can get hurt playing sports
b. participating in sports is optional

4/17/2014 4:25:03 PM

darkone
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If my shitty FORTRAN TA got a stipend, the student athletes should get a stipend.

4/17/2014 4:42:01 PM

ndmetcal
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Quote :
"If my shitty FORTRAN TA got a stipend, the student athletes should get a stipend."

If he wasn't doing it for the love of the programming, then he should be publicly vilified as the symbol of what is wrong with college programmers

4/17/2014 4:45:22 PM

aaronburro
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^^ a stipend? we got paid 7.25 an hour, if that.

4/17/2014 9:29:14 PM

aaronburro
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Quote :
"This report is really fantastic, http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Are-a-Cash-Cow2.aspx "

No, it's not, it's bullshit. Few, if any, have said "college sports is a cash cow". Instead, it's "major college sports are a cash cow," which is what many are complaining about. The university makes millions off of a football player but he can't use his own name to make a dime. Bringing up hockey or gymnastics and conflating that with football is stupid.

Quote :
"The NCAA is not a minor league, and these 'student' athletes need to recognize that their first job is being a student. "

That'd be great, if only the universities saw it that way. Just ask the players at UNC* just how much of "student" they were.

Quote :
"They (scholarship athletes) are being given an express ride of no debt to an education."

It has been well documented that many players across the nation are NOT getting a full ride, and are stuck with huge debt, and they can't get normal student loans because of their athletic scholarships. Then, they can't work an outside job, so...

Quote :
"The point is that they are not actual workers, they are being given a scholarship"

Except, of course, for the recent court case that essentially says they are workers, and that the notion of the scholarship is a fiction used by universities to suggest otherwise.

Quote :
"Regular students who get scholarships have to do work and extracurricular's (given it might not be as physically tough, they can be mentally and physically demanding) to keep their scholarships (such as the Park Scholarship, Caldwell Fellow, and the Goodnight Scholarship)"

Are they doing 50-60 hours a week of extra stuff for their scholarship, in addition to classes? I don't think so.



You find the argument "baseless" because you are completely naive as to what college athletics actually entail. it is incredibly hard to look at a person who is obligated to be at a certain place for 50-60 hours a week and receives some kind of compensation for it and say that he doesn't have some kind of employment relationship...

4/17/2014 9:41:28 PM

Fry
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your argument falls apart at "obligated"

4/17/2014 9:59:03 PM

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