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aaronburro
Sup, B
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Damned if JHC ain't coming in here throwing around strawmen and shit.

1/29/2019 6:28:30 PM

adultswim
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Leaving Syria so we can do the same thing in Venezuela

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/juan-guaido-control-venezuelan-assets-190129160213052.html

This is all very sick and will cost many, many lives.

1/29/2019 6:33:22 PM

JesusHChrist
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This:

Quote :
"In the process, you usually end up starving the people you are trying to help."


Ain't true. We are not trying to "help" the Venezuelan people. We are trying to "help" private interests. US intervention would be in service of capital, and in service of settler colonialism.


Quote :
"Damned if JHC ain't coming in here throwing around strawmen and shit."


Nah...I'm just cutting through all the bullshit and laying out the worldview that is required to think that US intervention could actually help.

-The "conservative" worldview would be to blame socialism and declare that the Venezuelan people "need" our intervention for their own good (because they're godless savages), and to conveniently ignore the economic sanctions and punitive measures that created this crisis to begin with.

-The "liberal" worldview would be to declare that "we need to do something" and frame this as a humanitarian mission even though any intervention would hurt the working poor and only help install oligarchs and imperialist puppets.

-The "leftist" worldview is to correctly identify this as a coupe that is aimed at transferring power and national resources into the hands of a few private enterprises and the land-owning class.

1/29/2019 6:49:07 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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Cutting through the bullshit... with a strawman. JCE ain't nearby, bruh.

1/29/2019 7:24:16 PM

Dentaldamn
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This is all ridiculous. The only real money coming into Venezuela is from Oil. A huge chunk of it coming from a company based in Texas that is majority owned by the Venezuelan government.

No one in this situation is doing anything for the good of the Venezuelan people. Obviously military action is completely stupid but I can’t say I have an issue with someone claiming the position of the presidency is empty. They are clearly using the constitution to claim the election is void and the person outlined in the constitution is claiming leadership. It’s not like some rando came out of the woods and started shooting people.

There’s no reason to get In an argument about private interests exploiting the situation for power. It’s all that exists.

[Edited on January 29, 2019 at 8:04 PM. Reason : Phone.....]

1/29/2019 8:04:21 PM

UJustWait84
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Quote :
"If life is so difficult in Latin America, is it because these savage brown people are inherently incapable of self governing? Is their misery self inflicted? Do they need the guiding light of American intervention? Do they need to be civilized by Uncle Sam? Re-colonized?


Square that circle, please."


Well, if you've actually visited more than one Latin American country (let alone know anyone from Venezuela), you'd know that it's a complicated answer. For some people, life can be comparable to what you'd find in the US or Spain. For others, their lives are pretty fucking shitty and they face hardships like starvation, gun violence, and political instability that looks a lot more like Rwanda or Myanmar than Chile or Argentina, which by the way aren't anywhere as nearly developed as most wealthy Western/Northern European countries. Not even close.

It's not about 'civilizing the savages', it's about the fact that there's never really been a country in Latin America with a political and economic system that's had the same relative stability of the US on, say, more than a few decades long basis. Venezuela was dealt shitty hand after shitty hand for a long ass time. While plenty of it has to do with the US's shitty attempts to both A) attempt to provide some sort of stability in the form of political and economic 'protection' AND B) uphold the Monroe doctrine (because, duh, it benefits the US tremendously), this notion that they'd be perfectly fine by themselves is absurd.

Since you brought up the stupid "savages" trope, let me use an analogy that might help you understand how there's no perfect solution in sight. Say your next-door neighbor has all kinds of problems. Let's also say you used to get drunk and high with her, and you even sold her drugs for a while, but then you pretty much stopped after you'd made a lot of money off of her and then you decided you didn't want to be involved with her anymore because she's all kind of fucked up. A few years later, her drug addict daughter (apple doesn't fall far from the tree!) can't take care of her kid anymore, and leaves him with grandma who's not doing so well. You now smell pot smoke 24/7, you regularly hear her shout and argue with the kid's mom (who doesn't live there) whenever she comes around, and you know the kid is clearly being smacked around by the grandma whenever she gets frustrated (basically every day). Do you pick up the phone and call CPS, so that the grandma loses custody and the kid winds up in foster care? Do you confront the grandmother who has mental health and substance abuse issues and tell her to stop abusing the kid? Do you tell the kid's mother the next time she shows up intoxicated what the grandma is doing, so she takes the kid away from a shitty situation into one that's probably a lot worse? Do you do nothing and just hope the kids grows up ok? Do you move out to find another apartment without so much drama? Do you adopt the kid yourself? You're a shitty person for contributing to her problems, regardless. You suck, and her life sucks worse because of you. That's a given. But how can you help now? Or how can you cause the least amount of harm to this innocent kid? Social workers everywhere are dying to know what your perfect solution is to the shitty situation you caused, and you no longer feel like dealing with.

Venezuela isn't filled with savages, but you're insane if you think that they're just a misunderstood country dealing with growing pains on the road to a steady democracy. We did plenty to fuck it up, but it had its problems that it inherited when trying to break free of Spanish control, and those problems don't just vanish on their own.

FWIW, I don't like sanctions, I don't want to get involved militarily, and I also don't want them to suffer from another brutally oppressive regime and starve to death. I don't like either 'presidents', because it's comparing vomit to shit.

Sorry your Che Guevara t-shirt isn't cool anymore because it's fucking offensive to lots of people.

1/29/2019 8:08:15 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Well, if you've actually visited more than one Latin American country (let alone know anyone from Venezuela), you'd know that it's a complicated answer. For some people, life can be comparable to what you'd find in the US or Spain. For others, their lives are pretty fucking shitty and they face hardships like starvation, gun violence, and political instability that looks a lot more like Rwanda or Myanmar than Chile or Argentina, which by the way aren't anywhere as nearly developed as most wealthy Western/Northern European countries. Not even close. "


This entire paragraph is dripping with western arrogance. Yes, I've visited multiple Latin American countries. The two countries you highlighted (Argentina and Chile) as being relatively stable have both have fascist and military dictatorships in their not so distant past (both supported by they US government). Argentina was on the verge of economic collapse for the better part of the last decade. So why did you bring that country up as the alternate example? Could it be it's large European/western ancestry (and hence your favorable comparison to Spain----another country that has also been marred with recent economic calamities).


Quote :
"it's about the fact that there's never really been a country in Latin America with a political and economic system that's had the same relative stability of the US on, say, more than a few decades long basis"


Gee...WHY MIGHT THAT BE?


Quote :
"Since you brought up the stupid "savages" trope, let me use an analogy that might help you understand how there's no perfect solution in sight. Say your next-door neighbor has all kinds of problems. Let's also ...the rest of this paragraph is fucking ridiculous"


Yo, this is some chain email circa 2003/pre invasion of Iraq level of stupidity. This analogy is on par for being as stupid as the emails I got from the extended family member who just learned how to forward horrible takes by comparing the US to neighbor who prevented Saddam Hussein from beating his wife. This is fucking bad. I can't believe you even bothered to type all this shit up. I'm embarrassed for you.


Quote :
"and those problems don't just vanish on their own."


You're right, they don't just vanish on their own, because their colonizers are still fucking colonizing them. They are still under the boot of imperial control. The United States picked up where Spain and Portugal left off. That was the entire point of the Monroe Doctrine (which is something you seem to be casually aware of, but don't quite fully understand). What's good for the United States (colonialism) is not good for the people of South America....because of fucking course it isn't. And anyone without a Euro/American-centric view of the world should be able to see that.

1/29/2019 11:12:05 PM

UJustWait84
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Hey dumbass, my dad married an Argentinian woman 15+ years ago, so I have an entire extended family that either fled to the US (including her and her adult two sons and they’re now naturalized US citizens) or that still live in Argentina and Chile, and a handful of other places in South America. My father, despite being a gringo born in the US, spent his entire adolecense in Mexico and made a career out of working for the US military, the State Department, and the DOD. I lived in Mexico City for a few years. It’s cool that you’ve visited Latin America, but have you lived there? Have any relatives from there? Not sure, but maybe if you did you wouldn’t sound like a pinko commie idiot who doesn’t have a clue about how the world really operates south of the border.

You can hurl around baseless assumptions and call me “Euro centric” all you want, but other people in the thread have already pointed out how ridiculous the notion of “democratic elections” are in places like Venezuela.

You and adultswim can continue your extremist commie circle jerk if you want, but my pedantic analogy is pretty much right. You don’t have any fucking answers that can solve Venezuela’s problems. Great job out stating the obvious about Americans perpetuating colonialism though- we had no idea

[Edited on January 30, 2019 at 12:51 AM. Reason : .]

1/30/2019 12:50:25 AM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"Say your next-door neighbor has all kinds of problems. Let's also say you used to get drunk and high with her, and you even sold her drugs for a while, but then you pretty much stopped after you'd made a lot of money off of her and then you decided you didn't want to be involved with her anymore because she's all kind of fucked up. A few years later, her drug addict daughter (apple doesn't fall far from the tree!) can't take care of her kid anymore, and leaves him with grandma who's not doing so well. You now smell pot smoke 24/7, you regularly hear her shout and argue with the kid's mom (who doesn't live there) whenever she comes around, and you know the kid is clearly being smacked around by the grandma whenever she gets frustrated (basically every day). Do you pick up the phone and call CPS, so that the grandma loses custody and the kid winds up in foster care? Do you confront the grandmother who has mental health and substance abuse issues and tell her to stop abusing the kid? Do you tell the kid's mother the next time she shows up intoxicated what the grandma is doing, so she takes the kid away from a shitty situation into one that's probably a lot worse? Do you do nothing and just hope the kids grows up ok? Do you move out to find another apartment without so much drama? Do you adopt the kid yourself? You're a shitty person for contributing to her problems, regardless. You suck, and her life sucks worse because of you. That's a given. But how can you help now? Or how can you cause the least amount of harm to this innocent kid? Social workers everywhere are dying to know what your perfect solution is to the shitty situation you caused, and you no longer feel like dealing with."


I really, really hope that this was copied and pasted from somewhere else

1/30/2019 12:53:04 AM

UJustWait84
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Nah it took me about 10 minutes to write since I had to stoop down to his idiotic and simplistic views of US/Latin American affairs.

I know you struggle with humor, sarcasm, and basic reading comprehension, so if you want, I can whip another up for you in the morning.

1/30/2019 1:33:04 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"It’s cool that you’ve visited Latin America, but have you lived there? Have any relatives from there? Not sure, but maybe if you did you wouldn’t sound like a pinko commie idiot who doesn’t have a clue about how the world really operates south of the border. "


I'm hispanic. I'm literally going to South America in two days to visit my immediate and extended family members who live there. I've been down there multiple times, for extended stays often.

It's nice that your dad made a living as part of the US empire, though. Even got to fuck an Argentine broad, too. Good for him. Somehow that makes you worldly in your mind. Cool.

1/30/2019 1:55:20 AM

UJustWait84
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Go back and read the rest of the fucking thread, since your very first post indicates that you didn’t.

1/30/2019 1:57:26 AM

Dentaldamn
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The only Venezuelan I know family fled Lebanon in the 80’s.

So I go nothing to contribute.

1/30/2019 7:09:50 AM

rwoody
Save TWW
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Lmao ujust said "pinko commie", are you 60 years old?

1/30/2019 7:16:24 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"I can’t say I have an issue with someone claiming the position of the presidency is empty. They are clearly using the constitution to claim the election is void and the person outlined in the constitution is claiming leadership."


That's not what this is. Guaido would not have been able to claim the presidency without the explicit backing of the US. And now we're introducing more sanctions and giving Guaido billions of dollars in Venezuelan funds kept in US banks. We're creating a civil war that would not otherwise exist, and openly stating it's because we want their oil.

If we wanted to help Venezuela, we would immediately end all sanctions and provide humanitarian aid.

1/30/2019 11:02:45 AM

dtownral
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humanitarian aid via NGOs and OGAs is how we pay, and have been paying, for regime change

1/30/2019 11:24:39 AM

adultswim
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Can you elaborate on that, not sure what you're saying

1/30/2019 11:36:58 AM

dtownral
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we have been giving millions in aid to venezeula for years, it's how we fund the kind of stuff you don't want

1/30/2019 12:01:17 PM

adultswim
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Yeah but there's a difference between "aid" and aid. Although it's a good point, under current administration the most humanitarian option would be to drop the sanctions and just leave them the fuck alone.

1/30/2019 12:12:27 PM

eleusis
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Quote :
"Guaido would not have been able to claim the presidency without the explicit backing of the US."


Maduro would not be able to retain control if it wasn't for Cuban meddling in their military and intelligence.

1/30/2019 12:57:44 PM

Bullet
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https://www.npr.org/2019/01/30/689286896/opinion-foreign-forces-did-not-start-venezuelas-transition-venezuela-did

1/30/2019 1:17:38 PM

adultswim
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Elliott Abrams, Trump’s Pick to Bring “Democracy” to Venezuela, Has Spent His Life Crushing Democracy

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/30/elliott-abrams-venezuela-coup/

Everyone unfamiliar with Abrams should read all of this, but as a summary:

Quote :
"The choice of Abrams sends a clear message to Venezuela and the world: The Trump administration intends to brutalize Venezuela, while producing a stream of unctuous rhetoric about America’s love for democracy and human rights. Combining these two factors — the brutality and the unctuousness — is Abrams’s core competency."


Quote :
"The distressing reality is that Abrams is no rogue outlier, but a respected, honored member of the center right of the U.S. foreign policy establishment. His first jobs before joining the Reagan administration were working for two Democratic senators, Henry Jackson and Daniel Moynihan. He was a senior fellow at the centrist Council on Foreign Relations. He’s been a member of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, and now is on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy. He’s taught the next generation of foreign policy officials at Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service. He didn’t somehow fool Reagan and George W. Bush — they wanted exactly what Abrams provided.

So no matter the gruesome particulars of Abrams’s career, the important thing to remember — as the U.S. eagle tightens its razor-sharp talons around yet another Latin American country — is that Abrams isn’t that exceptional. He’s mostly a cog in a machine. It’s the machine that’s the problem, not its malevolent parts."


[Edited on January 31, 2019 at 12:22 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2019 12:18:49 PM

dtownral
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these are people who talk fondly of pinochet's helicopter rides

1/31/2019 12:44:28 PM

LoneSnark
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^ says you.

^^ that resume summary makes him sound fine? I don't understand, what has he personally done evil beyond teach at some university and sit on some committees? I'm fine with thinking him evil, he was appointed by trump after all, but do being some details to the character assassinating, pretty please

1/31/2019 2:06:36 PM

NyM410
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Posting that vague information was weird given it’s common knowledge Abrams would be a felon if he didn’t plead down and cooperate with the independent counsel on Iran-Contra.

He participated in covering up numerous Latin America human rights travesties and should have been ostracized from public life decades ago before W brought him back from the dead.

1/31/2019 2:57:51 PM

adultswim
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The article I linked goes into immense detail of the horrific things he's done. The summary clarifies our intentions in Venezuela and the fact that Abrams isn't an outlier, but an accepted member of the US defense community.

LoneSnark you are truly a piece of shit btw

[Edited on January 31, 2019 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2019 3:08:05 PM

LoneSnark
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^ Not my fault you buried the lead behind a link.

But the dude was appointed by Trump, so, really, I'm not surprised he'd be a walking talking crime against humanity. But what I said about your abysmal summarizing ability stands.

That said, the name calling is still rude and inappropriate...just like your beliefs

[Edited on January 31, 2019 at 3:17 PM. Reason : .,.,]

1/31/2019 3:13:02 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Everyone unfamiliar with Abrams should read all of this, but as a summary"


The summary being: picking Abrams' signifies the Trump administration's intention to brutalize Venezuela.

Instead of clicking the article and getting the details, you took the side of a right wing ghoul (and torturer), as you always do. Fake ass libertarian.

1/31/2019 3:24:57 PM

LoneSnark
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^ Take his side? In what way? I described back to you what you posted. Not my fault you made him sound like just another bureaucrat in the machine.

1/31/2019 3:33:11 PM

JesusHChrist
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Podcast summaries with Allan Nairn describing who Abrams is


Intercepted interview

https://megaphone.link/PPY4735797605


Democracy Now interview:

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/1/30/allan_nairn_trump_s_venezuela_envoy

1/31/2019 3:35:01 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"LoneSnark you are truly a piece of shit"


Quote :
"you expect people to take you seriously?"

2/1/2019 12:38:15 PM

adultswim
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synapse I have zero interest in yours or lonesnark’s opinions. You don’t have any, and lonesnark parades himself as a “libertarian”, but actually just exists to defend capitalist power structures. I could not care less if you don’t take me seriously.

You're both a little obsessed with me and it's kinda uncomfortable tbh.

[Edited on February 1, 2019 at 1:20 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2019 1:06:38 PM

LoneSnark
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And you're a Russian fake account that only exists you justify the power structures of dictators.

2/1/2019 1:29:20 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"I could not care less if you don’t take me seriously."


I don't think anyone does.

2/1/2019 3:39:37 PM

synapse
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This must be some CIA funded fake news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-31/detained-and-hounded-juan-guaido-s-mentor-is-calling-the-shots

Everyone know the CIA calls all the shots in Venezuela, including Juan Guaidó's rise to power.

2/2/2019 3:09:47 AM

dtownral
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You think when the CIA finds regime change they do it in their own name?

2/2/2019 9:39:52 AM

synapse
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Did you mean to say funds?

2/2/2019 11:15:18 AM

dtownral
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Yes, got autocorrected. Nothing about that article is evidence foreign agencies aren't involved because of course they would want to stay in the shadows

2/2/2019 11:56:10 AM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1099726515292508162?s=21

Oh.

2/24/2019 2:45:33 PM

dtownral
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Prediction: there will be an "attack" on Colombian forces that's used as an excuse for military action

2/24/2019 4:21:17 PM

JesusHChrist
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^seems practically imminent.

Ya know, it's gonna be wild when the US allies with Bolsanaro and a flat-out fascist Brazilian government in order to "liberate" Venezuela.

2/24/2019 7:13:10 PM

synapse
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you think US military action is "practically imminent"?

2/24/2019 9:02:34 PM

JesusHChrist
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No, I think the bogus justification to endorse military action is practically imminent (which is what I was responding to)

2/24/2019 9:56:46 PM

dtownral
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i didn't realize this had happened when i made that post about colombia:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/guaido-and-supporters-prepare-to-challenge-maduros-blockade-of-aid/2019/02/22/b77eff44-3632-11e9-8375-e3dcf6b68558_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9f875a400849


it probably won't be US military, but it will be people US-SOA trained people with US logistical support and "advisers" to deliver "aid" or some shit

you're already starting to see tweets related to colombia, that's the first step

2/25/2019 11:16:33 AM

NyM410
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Happy Coup Day!

Maybe we can throw some lefties out of helicopters by nightfall.

4/30/2019 9:35:00 AM

NyM410
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https://twitter.com/lindseygrahamsc/status/1123225632844992512?s=21

I get tacit support as it’s no secret Maduro is a tyrant but damn this is way over the top.

4/30/2019 11:01:34 AM

A Tanzarian
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holy shit

4/30/2019 12:49:22 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
49197 Posts
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Pretty crazy follow today. Interesting comments from Pompeo just now about how Maduro was ready to be exiled this morning.

Problem is why should I take anything this administration says as credible?

4/30/2019 5:46:27 PM

A Tanzarian
drip drip boom
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OT, but I'm amazed by how crazy Graham thinks he needs to be to hold SC in 2020. I know I shouldn't be surprised (because South Carolina).

4/30/2019 6:14:27 PM

BEU
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Civil war means influx of refugees. Means more at US border. Of course they support it. It helps justify their entire narrative.

4/30/2019 7:07:44 PM

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