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TerdFerguson
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It’s gonna be so depressing when that turns out to be the case.

5/5/2020 6:44:05 PM

daaave
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Idk how to say this without sounding combative, but what's it going to take for people to recognize the trend that has been going on for half a century+ and err on taking the side of socialist countries in the global south rather than deceptive and greedy institutions in the US?

5/5/2020 6:54:00 PM

JesusHChrist
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'Are we the baddies?'

5/5/2020 8:14:53 PM

LoneSnark
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^^ I'm all for railing about how evil the American government is in these matters. However, just because your enemies are devils doesn't make you a saint. Maduro is evil. If someone else evil replaces him, I'm not going to be that upset.

And since both sides are morally similar, I retain a lot of skepticism about the claims of both sides. It seems entirely likely that Maduro would fake things like this. Hopefully time will tell what's really going on.

5/5/2020 9:35:38 PM

daaave
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We could argue all day about whether or not Maduro is "evil".

Instead, I'll just say that if you believe both sides are morally similar, you should side with Venezuelan self-determination, rather than the United States imposing its will on them and creating yet another puppet state in the south.

[Edited on May 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM. Reason : .]

5/5/2020 10:55:42 PM

StTexan
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I would like to hear an argument that Maduro is not evil. Tired of all the one-sidedness if it

5/5/2020 11:10:53 PM

daaave
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Why do you think he is evil?

[Edited on May 5, 2020 at 11:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/5/2020 11:22:56 PM

StTexan
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I mean I guess I could search and find reasons people thing he is evil. What I want is reasons he is not evil, since no one ever talks about those

5/6/2020 12:39:11 AM

LoneSnark
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Maduro's seizure of power from the democratically elected legislature is not self determination. Enslavement is enslavement. That his palace is closer doesn't make it better.

5/6/2020 10:24:11 AM

daaave
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So because you think the election was illegitimate (take a look at our own, btw), that makes it okay for a foreign country to install their own choice through subversion and violence?

5/6/2020 10:53:54 AM

Mr. Joshua
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I'm just a simple unfrozen caveman, but it seems to me that it would behoove the current administration to avoid an unnecessary foreign entanglement in favor of maintaining Venezuela as an outside "threat" while highlighting it as an example of evil socialismo.

That said, this seems like an example of a couple of joes drinking too much Monster while watching Jack Ryan. If this were actually backed by the administration they would have poured a lot more into it and bungled it much more spectacularly.

5/6/2020 12:37:26 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"If this were actually backed by the administration they would have poured a lot more into it and bungled it much more spectacularly."


What evidence or precedence is this assumption based on? I mean, this chinsie and cheap level of comically inept failure seems pretty on-brand for the administration.

Let us not forget that the president's dipshit son-in-law is on every single task-force for this administration. It doesn't seem far-fetched that a couple of self-serving and incompetent yahoos could rook this administration into giving them the green light to fuck this up.

5/6/2020 2:03:51 PM

JesusHChrist
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I guess it just wouldn't surprise me if Dollar Store Tom Clancy somehow convinced the president at Mar-a-lago that he and a rag-tag band of toy soldier misfits could topple a foreign government with an ipad and outsized social media presence. They probably just used a bunch of multi-syllable military terms to impress our big boy president of how competent they were:

Dipshit fail-soldier: "Mr President sir, we are going to launch a tactically-kinect amphibious assault op to ascertain the threat of the socialist-dictator Maduro, sir, and eliminate the target and disable his vehicular presence, sir"

Trump: [Looking at Elliot Abrams] "ooohhh, I like him. Look at him! Straight out of central casting! Let's use him"

5/6/2020 2:14:15 PM

rjrumfel
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Look, I feel like you people are here to blaspheme Jack Ryan. To be clear, Jack Ryan, and the supporting cast, never actually set out to topple the president there. They were doing investigative work and the president got in the way. Then they had to act.

That's all.

I really hope our government was not involved.

5/6/2020 3:27:41 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"So because you think the election was illegitimate (take a look at our own, btw), that makes it okay for a foreign country to install their own choice through subversion and violence?"

Fine. Look at ours. The out of power party freely chose whoever they wanted as their candidate without that candidate being charged with bogus criminal charges. That candidate then ran for office without their people being arrested and murdered. They were free to buy media time and even had tv networks on their side. None of this is the case in Venezuela.

But no, executive elections are usually rigged in south America anyways. That alone doesn't make you evil. My biggest objection is the packing of the top court to eliminate the legislative branch from power. Separation of power is easy, even Venezuela can manage that...until Maduro.

[Edited on May 6, 2020 at 9:37 PM. Reason : .m.]

5/6/2020 9:35:54 PM

daaave
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/roosevelt-announces-court-packing-plan
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/31/politics/democrats-supreme-court-packing-politics/index.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-is-reshaping-the-courts-to-cement-his-conservative-legacy-2019-12

Not trying to equivocate, of course. Maduro is solidifying power to fight a fascist insurgency and protect indigenous rights, much more of a valiant effort than whatever Democrats and Republicans are doing.

But regardless, who should we ask to coup us? We clearly need a Daddy state to tell us what to do (and slurp up our natural resources).

[Edited on May 6, 2020 at 11:02 PM. Reason : .]

5/6/2020 11:00:10 PM

StTexan
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Quote :
"
What evidence or precedence is this assumption based on?"


Lol

5/6/2020 11:08:34 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"What evidence or precedence is this assumption based on? I mean, this chinsie and cheap level of comically inept failure seems pretty on-brand for the administration."


Also...they did pour a lot into this, and they already tried to overthrow Maduro once. They declared Guaido president last year, paraded him around DC, gave him billions of dollars (by transferring control of Venezuelan bank accounts), then helped plan his spectacular failure of an uprising attempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Venezuelan_uprising_attempt

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/politics/us-guaido-venezuela-money/index.html

Quote :
"Some analysts say that could be because Guaido had made his announcement a day earlier than he was expected to. The early move left the top brass at the State Department "really caught off guard and pissed," a source familiar with State discussions about the situation told CNN.

As of last Friday, US embassy Caracas staff were being told to get ready to return to the Venezuelan capital, possibly within the next two weeks, to "reopen" the embassy, the source said. "It seemed, in anticipation of something happening."

On Tuesday the head of Venezuela's secret police broke ranks with Maduro in an open letter, criticizing the "thieves and scoundrels" and the country's corruption just hours before he was replaced.

But broader military support has failed to materialize.

In an interview Wednesday night, US Special Representative to Venezuela Elliott Abrams said that many military officials in Venezuela that the US had been trying to pull away from Maduro had "turned off their cellphones.""


We literally already tried this! Why is it so hard to believe we tried again?

[Edited on May 6, 2020 at 11:26 PM. Reason : .]

5/6/2020 11:22:13 PM

LoneSnark
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Usurping an entire branch of government is of course equivalent according to daaave to making it a bit difficult (but obviously not impossible) for some to vote.

Of course, I'm sure it is difficult for some (groups he believes will vote for his political rivals) to vote in Venezuela too. Maduro did his best to steal enough seats in the legislature, but his efforts to unfairly rig that election process too were not enough in the face of overwhelming public majorities against him. So, I suspect daaave is actually in favor of such things, since his man Maduro is doing it.

And yes, Roosevelt was honestly thinking of overthrow a competing branch of government...so, I guess if Roosevelt thought about doing it, and since daaave is 100% in favor of Maduro doing this, then it would be fine with daaave if Trump did it today? After-all, Trump would just be "solidifying power to fight a fascist insurgency." Can't let the Trump Revolution be overthrown by the evil Democratic Party, right daaave?

Quote :
"Maduro is solidifying power to fight a fascist insurgency"

And here we get to the crux of daaave's belief structure. Gotta fight fascism with fascism, only difference being it is his people. So, Maduro can do whatever he wants, it doesn't matter, no matter how evil. Daaave believes he is on his team, and nothing matters more than team. Principles, rights, life, truth, all that is secondary to the cause, like any good fascist.

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 12:50 AM. Reason : .,.]

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 12:52 AM. Reason : .,.]

5/7/2020 12:46:20 AM

daaave
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Incredible that you still don't know what the word "fascism" means after having it explained to you over and over again.

But yes, I do believe in using state power to crush fascism. You sure got me there!

5/7/2020 12:56:13 AM

LoneSnark
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Using state power to crush disfavored groups is fascism. I've explained this to you many times, but, since your world view cannot allow your team to be on the bad side, you cannot accept that definition into your head.

Always remember kids, it is only fascism when others do it. When we do it, it is just called "national socialism" a term no one else has ever used, nope nope.

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 1:02 AM. Reason : .,.]

5/7/2020 1:01:18 AM

StTexan
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^^^i feel as though that could be applied to a few socialists here, no?

5/7/2020 1:22:18 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"national socialism"


Hitler, in his own fucking words, talking about how he opportunistically stole the word socialism and replaced it with his own racist ideology.

Quote :
"Socialism is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists. Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic. We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one."


And subsequently, actual socialists were the first to be sent to concentration camps. You know, as illustrated by this poem displayed in the Holocaust Museum.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists

5/7/2020 1:44:45 AM

StTexan
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Communism > socialism

5/7/2020 1:48:33 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Using state power to crush disfavored groups is fascism. "


No it isn't. This is not the definition of the word. Fascism is primarily an economic model. It has the nasty underbelly of nationalism because nationalism is a means of dividing the working poor and preventing them from uniting to defeat a common enemy (the capitalist class). This is why Lenin often referred to fascism as "capitalism in decay."

Marshaling the resources of the state at the behest of private interests predictably leads to nationalism as a means of preserving private capital. Crushing dissent, opposition and marginalized communities is a byproduct fascism, but it is not the primary definition of the term. Forcing millions of recently unemployed off of unemployment insurance rolls and forcing them back into the workforce without a cure during a plague to salvage corporate profits for the land and business owning elite is a greater indicator of fascistic ideology than your hamfisted assertion.

Fascism is the merging of corporate power and the state. When corporations become the state and/or run the state, you have fascism. This is diametrically opposed to the economic philosophy of socialism, which is an economic model where the means of production are owned by the workers. The only way you can claim "both-sides-ism" is if you continuously and intentionally mis-use the terms such as you have done.

5/7/2020 6:01:29 PM

LoneSnark
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^^^ because they weren't fascists. "Socialists" in the classic sense are against the fascism you expose. They want to unite all, enemies included, for the betterment of all society. Such people are of course the enemies of fascists such as yourself, which are eager to "solidify power to crush [insert hated social group here]".

^ I'm sure all those of Jewish ancestry which owned so many of the businesses in pre-Nazi Germany will be thrilled to learn they were in charge the whole time...lol

You have it ass backwards. Fascism is a political model first. It uses capitalism when it needs to, state ownership when it needs to. All that matters is to "solidify power to crush [insert hated social group here]", which happens to be what Maduro is doing. His politically connected friends are in no risk of having their fabulously profitable businesses nationalized. They certainly face no union troubles. They're not the ones struggling to get currency exchange at the official rates.

No, the only corporations struggling to function are those lacking the right connections. Fascism rejects the concept of a class struggle. The struggle is instead between those that serve the cause and those that do not. Those that serve the cause, such as Maduro, are free to do and take what they like. Those that do not, are free to be robbed and even murdered. Owning a factory won't save you under fascism, as it does not in Venezuela today.

5/7/2020 6:32:46 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"^ I'm sure all those of Jewish ancestry which owned so many of the businesses in pre-Nazi Germany will be thrilled to learn they were in charge the whole time...lol"


Umm.......pardon? Is there a deeper point you made in here or are you just casually slipping in some anti-semitism just for the hell of it?

Quote :
"You have it ass backwards. Fascism is a political model first. It uses capitalism when it needs to, state ownership when it needs to"


What the fuck are you even rambling about? Fascism has a specific meaning. Have you been reading D'nesh D'souza or something? How are you so flagrantly uninformed on this?

5/7/2020 6:43:29 PM

JesusHChrist
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"Fascism is capitalism. It is also corporatism. It is also nationalism. It is also socialism. It is also communism. It's also when you have to drink out of a paper straw and girls with short haircuts"

- LoneSnark



[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 6:59 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2020 6:51:50 PM

LoneSnark
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^^ you said the capitalist class ruled the country under fascism, I pointed out such an assertion is absurd, unless you can believe the people in charge (Jewish members of the capitalist class) put themselves into concentration camps.

I don't think the seething sarcasm was honestly too obscure for you, I even put lol after it.

^ Putting quotes around things no one has said, there you go again. Like a good fascist, truth doesn't matter.

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 7:01 PM. Reason : .m.]

5/7/2020 6:59:37 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"you said the capitalist class ruled the country under fascism, I pointed out such an assertion is absurd, unless you can believe the people in charge (Jewish members of the capitalist class) put themselves into concentration camps. "


Quote :
"the people in charge"


Quote :
"Jewish members"


Quote :
"the people in charge"


Quote :
"Jewish members"




Are.........are.........are you....

....Are you using Nazi propaganda talking points to prove that the nazi's weren't in fact fascist?

Is that what you're doing?

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 7:29 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2020 7:04:51 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"^^^ because they weren't fascists. "Socialists" in the classic sense are against the fascism you expose. They want to unite all, enemies included, for the betterment of all society. Such people are of course the enemies of fascists such as yourself, which are eager to "solidify power to crush [insert hated social group here]". "


"Socialists" in the classic sense (Marx and Engels) believed in the formation of a one-party proletarian state intended to give direct democracy to proletarians, drown out the power of the capitalist class, and eventually eliminate class distinctions altogether . Lenin believed capitalists shouldn't be allowed to vote. You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about lol.

Quote :
"....Are you using Nazi propaganda talking points to prove that the nazi's weren't in fact fascist?"


Doing Holocaust denial to own the socialists

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 8:01 PM. Reason : .]

5/7/2020 7:56:50 PM

JesusHChrist
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"Workers of the world (and fuck it, their bosses, too)....UNITE!"

Famous closing sentence of Marx and Engel's manifesto.

[Edited on May 7, 2020 at 8:02 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2020 8:01:58 PM

LoneSnark
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Sorry, I need to move a bit slower for you it seems. JrsusHChrist said this:
Quote :
"When corporations become the state and/or run the state, you have fascism."

To which I pointed out his description of fascism as "corporations...run the state" is absurd, given what happened to many of those corporations' owners (Holocaust).

We have three possibilities. Either JesusHChrist denies the holocaust, JesusHChrist denies the existence of Jewish capitalists, or he admits his statements were obviously false and fascists do in fact kill capitalists.

Quote :
"Lenin believed capitalists shouldn't be allowed to vote"

Doesn't surprise me, Lenin had his fascist elements too. I'm sure he did far more than that to them. Lots of people tend not to survive the "solidify power to crush [insert rival social group here]" stage.

5/8/2020 12:44:00 AM

JesusHChrist
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You're a bit thick, aren't you?


Quote :
"JesusHChrist denies the existence of Jewish capitalists"


The holocaust was not limited to the elimination of Jewish capitalists, nor was it targeted at capitalists as an economic class. It targeted Jews specifically as an entire group, regardless of their relationship with the means of production. The Nazi party did this precisely by disseminating the stereotype that the "people in charge" were mostly Jewish capitalists, which is exactly what you've done THREE TIMES on this very page:

Quote :
"I'm sure all those of Jewish ancestry which owned so many of the businesses in pre-Nazi Germany..."


Quote :
"unless you can believe the people in charge (Jewish members of the capitalist class)"


Quote :
""given what happened to many of those corporations' owners (Holocaust)." [my note; read (Holocaust) as (Jews)] "


In all three of these examples, you begin your analysis (as clumsy as it is) operating under the assumption that business leaders in Weimar Germany were overwhelmingly Jewish. Again, this is a literal Nazi propaganda point. You are hung up on portraying the Nazi's as socialist (which is demonstrably false), and you present the targeting of Jews as evidence of the socialist desire to rid the world of capitalists. But in order to make this leap of conflating Jews and capitalists as being one and the same, you must first operate under the assumption that Jews are secretly in control of society. Again, I can't stress this enough: This is textbook Nazi propaganda.

The fact that you so effortlessly and willingly walked right into this argument and un-ironically endorsed Nazi propaganda in your bizarre quest to claim that fascism and socialism are actually the exact same thing should probably give you pause and maybe make you re-examine your entire worldview or at least stop posting for a while.





[Edited on May 8, 2020 at 2:24 AM. Reason : ]

5/8/2020 1:55:18 AM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
" you begin your analysis (as clumsy as it is) operating under the assumption that business leaders in Weimar Germany were overwhelmingly Jewish"

What does the word "overwealming" mean to you and how does it differ from the "many" that I used many times and you just needed to substitute? "Many" is true, "overwealming" sounds like the lie that it is and you then spend a paragraph arguing is false...I hope you enjoyed knocking dow that scarecrow you made up.

Quote :
"your bizarre quest to claim that fascism and socialism are actually the exact same thing"

I would never suggest the two are the same. I have been arguing this entire time that Maduro is a fascist regardless of his proclamations to be a socialist. My evidence has been the similar policies between Daaave, the historical fascists, and Maduro. I myself explained why fascists consider socialists their enemies. To suggest they're the same thing is absurd, so obviously you wish I had said anything of the sort, so you could knock that scarecrow down too.

Would you like to make up any other lies about me you can argue against?

[Edited on May 8, 2020 at 3:10 PM. Reason : .,.]

5/8/2020 3:08:25 PM

horosho
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Do any of you realize that differences in political perspective leads to differences in interpretations of definitions. Terms like fascism and socialism don't have simple definitions. You could have semantic arguments all day but unless you come to a point where your ideologies overlap, the words are going to mean different things.

Why waste time with "words have meaning" semantics argument instead of figuring out what each other is saying about maduro and keeping on topic. Not everything has to be labeled. I'll take a swing at it:

Daave is simply saying "you gotta fight x with strong authoritarian rule to make sure you nip it in the bud because you believe falling to x would be far worse than what you have now being buffed by authoritarian measures even if authoritarianism is a secondary characteristic of x.

Any American could probably understand this if we replaced the f word with x. Its the same line of reasoning we used in this country with x being terrorism.

Loneshark is claiming authoritarian rule is no better than x itself and that fighting one form of authoritarianism with another is hypocritical. He seems to be saying the authoritarian left is just as bad as the authoritarian right.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm right, you should just proceed with the debate from there because it would actually be able to get somewhere.

5/8/2020 3:29:01 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"What does the word "overwealming" mean to you and how does it differ from the "many" that I used many times and you just needed to substitute?"


Pity you didn't read the rest of my post, where I quoted 3 separate remarks you made and highlighted the offending portions where you casually reveal your anti-antisemitism.

You are holding up Jewish members of "elite society" (again, I have to keep repeating that this is a Nazi talking point) as proof that fascists killed capitalists. You are doing this because you need to defend your (false) assertion that fascism is singularly defined by the state projection of force, rather concede that fascism is the merging of corporate control and state power that then targets specific out groups to persecute typically around nationalist sentiment.

In your dumb-guy quest that is both incoherent and riddled with spelling errors, you make no distinction between Jewish people and the big 'C' Capitalists as an economic class (again, this bears repeating; this is Nazi propaganda). By doing this, you give yourself the wiggle-room to claim that fascists target capitalists, and ignore the glaring and obvious fact that 6 million exterminated Jews were not all Capitalists (because fucking obviously). It also allows you to falsely claim that leftists are fascists, because they do the same thing (use state force to project power over groups). Again, this is false, and you do this because you've built your assertion on the this false premise. Socialism identifies capitalism as its political adversary. Not all Jews are capitalist. In fact, most aren't. Therefore deliberately exterminating Jews as a class is fascist and not at all indicative of socialist ideology. This is profoundly obvious to everyone except you, you stupid fucking git.

5/8/2020 3:38:24 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Why waste time with "words have meaning" semantics argument instead of figuring out what each other is saying about maduro and keeping on topic."


Because this is incredibly dangerous. He doesn't get to "feel" a certain way about a certain term and then manipulate that emotion to excuse or even promote dangerous ideologies. And surely you can see that he is emoting his way into getting you to believe his double-speak, where he projects a false term onto a competing ideology in order to hold up the ideology he prefers.

Quote :
"He seems to be saying the authoritarian left is just as bad as the authoritarian right. "


Except this isn't what he's doing, and you need to be able to see through that. When living in an authoritarian right wing world, and by constantly pointing to decrying the dangers of a non-existent or fabricated alternative, you ensure that the un-checked power of the authoritarian right goes unchallenged. This is why red-baiting is deployed as a tactic. It preserves power and prevents reform.

5/8/2020 3:45:51 PM

daaave
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All governments are authoritarian by nature. Socialism, by its classical and only definition, strives to increase democracy for workers and reduce democracy for capitalists, resulting in an increase in democracy overall, and a reduction of class distinctions.

Right-wing governments, on the other hand, strive for the opposite, resulting in decreased democracy overall and as a result, increased authoritarianism.

5/8/2020 4:50:22 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"You are holding up Jewish members of "elite society" "

Good work, you managed to conjure even more lies. The word "elite" doesn't appear in any of my posts. Scarecrow scarecrow, tear it down. horosho is wrong, we're not arguing over terminology, because the words you keep pretending I used are not what I used. If only we could argue semantics, it would be an improvement over this scarecrow shit.

Quote :
"fascism is the merging of corporate control and state power that then targets specific out groups to persecute typically around nationalist sentiment."

The fascists murdered many corporate owners, most but more importantly not exclusively those of Jewish ancestry.

Quote :
"you make no distinction between Jewish people and the big 'C' Capitalists as an economic class"

You're genuinely confused because I didn't also mention he murdered non-business owners? It didn't occur to me that everyone here didn't know that already. Since you seem to be entirely unfamiliar with fascist history, let me tell you: Hitler's regime killed many millions of innocent people. He killed socialists, capitalists, liberals, democrats, communists, labor organizers, merchants, laborers, soldiers. There was not any class of society that was unrepresented among the victims there. I know that shatters your "Fascism is the merging of corporate power and the state" theory. But, you're not going to comprehend anything that doesn't fit your class-war world view, so just make up some more lies, you'll feel better then.

Quote :
"Socialism, by its classical and only definition, strives to increase democracy for workers and reduce democracy for capitalists, resulting in an increase in democracy overall, and a reduction of class distinctions."

Which is why that arguably healthy form of Socialism will never be pursued under Maduro. Best I can tell, the workers do not approve of what he has done to Venezuelan society, so by enabling democracy for workers he'd lose power. Maduro can't have that. As with all fascists, only his supporters get to vote for who they want in any office that matters.

Quote :
"Right-wing governments, on the other hand, strive for the opposite, resulting in decreased democracy overall and as a result, increased authoritarianism."

See, this is where classification breaks down. If we want to measure democracy, we should just measure democracy. Maduro is very undemocratic. Maduro is extremely authoritarian. You say he's a leftist, I don't think that label matters anymore given the other two things I just listed. Venezuela would be no different today if Maduro was an undemocratic authoritarian rightist. His political rivals would still be either in prison or under constant threat of state sanctioned violence. Workers would still be under threat of being fired or worse if they don't vote Maduro's way. Protesters would still live in fear of being gunned down in the street by state-sanctioned partisans. The murder rate would still be record setting. Anyone not an avid supporter would have still had their businesses seized and given to those more supporting. He would have still wrecked the economy for his own gain. The only difference I can think of is that you'd be condemning him, rather than defending him as you are.

5/8/2020 10:34:18 PM

JesusHChrist
All American
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Quote :
"Hitler's regime killed many millions of innocent people. He killed socialists, capitalists, liberals, democrats, communists, labor organizers, merchants, laborers, soldiers. There was not any class of society that was unrepresented among the victims there. "


Ahhhh yes, the final solution. A real cornucopia of diversity that was.


For everyone else who doesn't want to be bogged down with the revisionism of LoneSnark (who is attempting to explain away Nazi Germany as a quasi left-wing movement), I'd recommend reading Robert Paxton's "Anatomy of Fascism":

Synopsis:

Quote :
"Explaining the anatomy of fascism, Paxton deconstructs the myth that fascist movements seized power by force. It was liberals and conservatives, frightened not by fascism, but by the Left, who accepted fascists into their coalition governments and gave them the opportunity to govern. In Italy, despite the fact that the pan-Italian fascist march into Rome turned into a fiasco, the conservatives gave Mussolini the chance to enter into a coalition government. What the Italian fascists had proved was that they could successfully crush the Left, as they did in North Italy for the sake of the local great landowners and with the help of the local state apparatus. Similarly, other European fascists tried to convince conservatives and businessmen that only they could handle the communists and protect the social and economic order. German fascists were successful in that task and came to power in the early 1930s with the help of German conservatives and businessmen."


https://notevenpast.org/the-anatomy-of-fascism-by-robert-paxton-2004/

Paxton argues that fascism is unique in that it is a coalition between business leaders (i.e, the corporations) and conservatives that usher in fascist movements (thus the merging of big business interests and the state). He also argues that it is liberals who allow this to happen, as they are more afraid of left wing political insurgencies then they are of fascist and nationalist groups (think about the Bernie campaign for a recent historical example). The common theme of fascist movements is the explicit desire to crush the left (first they came for the communists - Martin Niemoller), and usually achieve these aims by poisoning the public sphere with nationalistic and xenophic language targeting outsiders while praising the prevailing in group (some very fine people). This is why fascist movements crush the political will of the broader left (ie, communists, socialists, labor movements, etc) before then carrying out their genocidal aims of national (and usually racial) purity.


Another good read about how fascism and nationalism rise first as a means of crushing the left and labor movements (at the behest of capital) before then carrying out acts of genocide:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/11/nuremberg-trials-hitler-goebbels-himmler-german-communist-social-democrats/


[Edited on May 8, 2020 at 11:31 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2020 11:11:22 PM

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