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A Tanzarian
drip drip boom
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"This is how Socialism fails, and this is what Democrats want for you!"

*scary AOC picture*

4/30/2019 7:14:24 PM

qntmfred
retired
39691 Posts
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crickets

7/25/2019 8:02:13 PM

daaave
All American
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/09/un-rights-chief-decries-latest-us-sanctions-venezuela-michelle-bachelet

Surely this will help the starving Venezuelans that our government cares about so much.

8/9/2019 11:49:33 AM

daaave
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lol

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/venezuela-set-to-charge-guiado-with-treason

9/10/2019 4:48:34 PM

LoneSnark
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lol indeed
Obvious fabrication is obvious. How about we listen again to Maduro telling us he was elected freely and fairly again.

9/14/2019 2:05:39 PM

daaave
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lol

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/13/juan-guaido-faces-questions-over-links-to-organised-groups

9/14/2019 7:21:05 PM

daaave
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Here’s Warren supporting sanctions and regime change in Venezuela.

https://twitter.com/alytadeleon/status/1196428515366846465?s=21

11/18/2019 2:57:42 PM

daaave
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https://twitter.com/benjaminnorton/status/1226903410408075269?s=21

Right wing insurgents (Guaido’s people) are sabotaging infrastructure that working class Venezuelans depend on. This is what Trump and Pelosi are both enabling with their support of Guaido.

[Edited on February 10, 2020 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

2/10/2020 3:07:45 PM

LoneSnark
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Criminals exist. In well functioning countries, such things get repaired, not blamed on the political opponents of the regime.

The DC Metro breaks down rather frequently, it is the nature of the technology that they break down on their own. Seems rather surprising the Caracas Metro was still running at all given the systemic collapse. Therefore, I suspect the Metro finally broke down for good on its own and then some photos were quickly concocted to claim "Guido did it!"

2/11/2020 11:30:34 AM

daaave
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Libertarians love to make excuses for fascist terrorists

2/11/2020 12:01:13 PM

LoneSnark
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And you seem to love making excuses for left wing fascists. In my opinion both sides are criminals and should be treated as such.

But a couple cut cables should take a day to fix at most.

2/11/2020 12:45:41 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"left wing fascists"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Quote :
"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum. "

2/11/2020 1:05:45 PM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
"authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy"

Sounds like Venezuela today to me. When a person is far enough to the left or the right the distinction of "left vs right" becomes merely a difference in name only. What would you prefer I call Maduro if not a fascist?

2/11/2020 9:39:37 PM

Dentaldamn
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It would be enjoyable to read a convo on this situation without the words “socialism” or “fascism” being used.

2/11/2020 9:54:36 PM

daaave
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Whenever you read "fascist" itt, you can replace with "ultra-right descendants of Spanish occupiers who view themselves as racially superior to the indigenous population, who want to implement austerity against the poor, privatize the economy, and sell off state-owned businesses to the the rich". I admit it's not as effective a term when the person arguing with me doesn't know what it means.

Look at Brazil for an example of the future of Venezuela under Guaido.

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

2/12/2020 11:04:49 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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Guaido, to my knowledge, has not said nearly the amount of crazy shit that Bolsonaro has over the years. That’s not to say he isn’t dangerous but Bolsonaro has all but literally said he wants to genocide indigenous people, gays and undesirables. Not to mention the openly opining for the junta days.

What is the best way to classify Maduro? Leftist totalitarian?!

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 11:13 AM. Reason : I actually don’t know]

2/12/2020 11:12:40 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"Guaido, to my knowledge, has not said nearly the amount of crazy shit that Bolsonaro has over the years."


No, but he forms allegiances with people who do.

Quote :
"What is the best way to classify Maduro? Leftist totalitarian?!"


Socialist within the context of constant pressure by right-wing governments and racist opposition to overthrow the indigenous Chavismo movement. Totalitarian? Give me a break.

2/12/2020 11:21:46 AM

daaave
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How does this always happen? Hmmm

2/12/2020 11:25:57 AM

LoneSnark
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Quote :
" I admit it's not as effective a term when the person arguing with me doesn't know what it means."

Lord knows that is a common problem talking with you.

Quote :
"who want to implement austerity against the poor, privatize the economy, and sell off state-owned businesses to the the rich"

And which of those did the National Socialists of 1930's Germany do? The poor got free healthcare and a safety net. They nationalized whole sectors of the economy. And the only businesses that were sold off were private businesses owned by Jews.

So, where the hell are you getting this absurd definition of "fascism"? It sounds like "I don't like these things, fascism is whatever things I don't like, therefore these things are fascism."

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .,.]

2/12/2020 11:40:17 AM

dtownral
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aCksHuAllY nAzIs wErEn'T fAsCiStS

aRgUe wItH mE sEnpAi


https://twitter.com/torstenkathke/status/1026088160877576193
https://twitter.com/waitmanb/status/1101195238834692096

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 12:06 PM. Reason : reading links]

2/12/2020 11:50:18 AM

daaave
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Read up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Privatization_and_business_ties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Economy

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2020 12:14:55 PM

LoneSnark
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Yes, read-up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_People%27s_Welfare

"The Nazi social welfare provisions included old age insurance, rent supplements, unemployment and disability benefits, old-age homes and interest-free loans for married couples, along with healthcare insurance, which was not decreed mandatory until 1941."

But you have a point, Nazi Germany desired to remain a well functioning economy, and you cannot have that under the socialism practiced in Venezuela (see Venezuela, for example, which can't seem to feed itself, how could it hope to wage any form of war). So, yea, the Nazi's privatized what they needed to to keep the whole socialist enterprise operating. But similarly they Nationalized what they wanted to. Similarly, threatening every business with nationalization if they didn't cooperate fully.

2/12/2020 3:50:15 PM

daaave
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Please stop embarrassing yourself

Quote :
"Fascists criticized egalitarianism as preserving the weak, and they instead promoted social Darwinist views and policies. They were in principle opposed to the idea of social welfare, arguing that it "encouraged the preservation of the degenerate and the feeble." The Nazi Party condemned the welfare system of the Weimar Republic, as well as private charity and philanthropy, for supporting people whom they regarded as racially inferior and weak, and who should have been weeded out in the process of natural selection. Nevertheless, faced with the mass unemployment and poverty of the Great Depression, the Nazis found it necessary to set up charitable institutions to help racially-pure Germans in order to maintain popular support, while arguing that this represented "racial self-help" and not indiscriminate charity or universal social welfare. Thus, Nazi programs such as the Winter Relief of the German People and the broader National Socialist People's Welfare (NSV) were organized as quasi-private institutions, officially relying on private donations from Germans to help others of their race—although in practice those who refused to donate could face severe consequences. Unlike the social welfare institutions of the Weimar Republic and the Christian charities, the NSV distributed assistance on explicitly racial grounds. It provided support only to those who were "racially sound, capable of and willing to work, politically reliable, and willing and able to reproduce." Non-Aryans were excluded, as well as the "work-shy", "asocials" and the "hereditarily ill." Under these conditions, by 1939, over 17 million Germans had obtained assistance from the NSV, and the agency "projected a powerful image of caring and support" for "those who were judged to have got into difficulties through no fault of their own." Yet the organization was "feared and disliked among society's poorest" because it resorted to intrusive questioning and monitoring to judge who was worthy of support."

2/12/2020 4:05:53 PM

dtownral
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they used popular points to win votes, after they had power they ignored most of the 25 points and abandoned the pretense of being socialist (and in fact even imprisoned socialists)

2/12/2020 4:08:18 PM

Cabbage
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"First they came for the Socialists, because they were Socialists, too and they were kind enough to send me an invitation to join them"

-Martin Niemöller

2/12/2020 4:12:11 PM

daaave
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Love to see Lonesnark defend Nazis in an attempt to win an argument about Venezuela.

*~just neoliberal things~*

[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2020 4:12:18 PM

LoneSnark
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^^^^ Are you quoting yourself? I have no idea why I should find your words more persuasive than wiki history. Are you arguing wikipedia is lying?

^ Defend Nazis? Really? Only you could think that. I guess that is why you like Maduro. I guess your thinking is "Well, if it is true the Nazi's were welfare state socialists, then regardless of whatever else they did, they were good people." Which is bullshit. I don't care how many poor Germans or poor Venezuelans their respective regimes helped with the left hand. They are evil because of all the horrible things their right hand was doing at exactly the same time.

2/12/2020 7:47:58 PM

daaave
All American
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[Edited on February 12, 2020 at 7:58 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2020 7:56:33 PM

daaave
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It's from this article I linked that you didn't read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Economy

Quote :
"They are evil because of all the horrible things their right hand was doing at exactly the same time."


It's clear you know a lot of things about socialism and Venezuela in particular! Could you educate everyone on the ways in which they are evil?

2/12/2020 7:58:28 PM

Dentaldamn
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Is it agreed that Venezuela (also Bolivia) is a fight between an indigenous backed group (that has been in control) focused on the collective good (to varying degrees of success) of the population vs a largely European backed group (vying for power) focused on globalization and enriching the upper class?

2/12/2020 11:32:24 PM

LoneSnark
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Rampant theft of property (those unlucky enough to not be upper class elites). Draconian currency controls designed to impoverish the citizenry and enrich upper class elites. Suppression of free speech. Suppression of the opposition. Evidence fabrication. Wrongful imprisonment. Imprisonment without trial. Court packing. Election Fraud. Murderously bad economic policy to concentrate wealth in an ever smaller group of elites. Ruinous price controls. Party loyalty requirements for government workers. Union suppression. Violent crackdowns on union activity. All pretty darn evil.

The Rich and powerful remaining in Venezuela are doing amazingly well. The price controls impoverished farmers and small business owners, which ultimately wound up having their businesses nationalized. The rich and powerful are given special rights to engage in currency exchange at preferential rates and therefore now enjoy monopolies in the local market for whatever it is they either import or produce, since no one without international exchange at those rates could ever hope to compete. Anyone that does dare to continue competing against them, winds up having their business sized and given without compensation to the elites. Absolutely no mystery why they're willing to pay so much money to maintain such a large non-governmental paramilitary force to murder opposition organizers and terrorize opposition protesters. That hard to believe murder rate is no accident.

[Edited on February 13, 2020 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .,.]

2/12/2020 11:54:47 PM

Exiled
Eyes up here ^^
5878 Posts
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Quote :
"Rampant theft of property (those unlucky enough to not be upper class elites). Draconian currency controls designed to impoverish the citizenry and enrich upper class elites. Suppression of free speech. Suppression of the opposition. Evidence fabrication. Wrongful imprisonment. Imprisonment without trial. Court packing. Election Fraud. Murderously bad economic policy to concentrate wealth in an ever smaller group of elites. Ruinous price controls. Party loyalty requirements for government workers. Union suppression. Violent crackdowns on union activity. All pretty darn evil."


Unsure if you're still referring to Venezuela, or if you've confused that country with the US.

2/13/2020 7:40:41 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"Is it agreed that Venezuela (also Bolivia) is a fight between an indigenous backed group (that has been in control) focused on the collective good (to varying degrees of success) of the population vs a largely European backed group (vying for power) focused on globalization and enriching the upper class?"


On the anti-imperialist indigenous movements:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarian_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_(Bolivia)

On racism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_America#Venezuela
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10547
https://latinomediacollective.com/2019/06/14/june-14th-2019-right-wing-racism-in-venezuela/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30040277?seq=1

Quote :
"Unsure if you're still referring to Venezuela, or if you've confused that country with the US."


Exactly. Even if everything he said was true (it's not), he's describing the fucking US.

Venezuela has seen massive reductions in poverty, on top of a 15 year growth in life expectancy since 1960, despite imperialist sanctions undercutting their economy and threatening access to food and medicine. Meanwhile, the US poverty rate has been stagnant since 1970 and our life expectancy has dropped two years in a row.

https://fair.org/home/us-media-erase-years-of-chavismos-gains/
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=venezuela+life+expectancy

I hope everyone realizes at this point that Lonesnark is entirely full of shit.

[Edited on February 13, 2020 at 12:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2020 12:00:32 PM

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