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Doss2k
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Quote :
"The fact that sucking a dick will get you ahead is a problem in itself, and the fault doesn't like with the people doing the sucking."


I mean I get that but if you think men are gonna stop accepting that I don't really know what to tell you. So long as there are women offering there are gonna be men there to accept it and that's unfortunately just the way nature works. Doesn't make it right or wrong but to expect anything different would be insane.

Don't get me wrong people like Weinstein deserve to rot in hell I am simply pointing out the overall issue at play here and how it isn't going away no matter what people say or do. Those who take advantage or their power and push themselves onto women should pay the price but if you think guys are gonna stop accepting freely offered sexual favors for things in return you are simply kidding yourself. Sure there are plenty of upstanding men out there who wouldn't do such a thing but there are just as many who would.

[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2017 12:54:16 PM

dtownral
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what does that have to do with a man masturbating into a plant in front of someone?

10/20/2017 12:57:03 PM

Cabbage
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"...men in power like that aren't always willing to differentiate between the two "


I'm glad someone is finally raising awareness of the plight of men in power. Differentiate between the two? Ain't nobody got time for that.

10/20/2017 12:59:25 PM

GREEN JAY
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You've put the chicken before the egg, Doss, but I think the antecedent is actually women getting treated like crap. Then, once they've accepted they will be treated like crap no matter what they do, some of them decide to see what they can get out of it. The rest of us are just angry until we're in the ground.

10/20/2017 1:01:04 PM

Doss2k
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Oh I agree its a shitty situation I am simply pointing out the problem isn't something that is fixable. Those who take advantage of women deserve what they get but I am also not gonna fault some dude for getting laid because a girl is offering it up in hopes of getting something in return. It is clearly more prevalent in men driven industries and, yes because it happens so frequently, women almost feel like that's what they have to do. It shouldn't be that way but it is and the problem is until all women decide to unite and stop doing it there are always gonna be men there who will make that trade and I just see no way there isnt always going to be the next woman willing to step up and give in. Bringing awareness is great hopefully it keeps more men from taking advantage of unwilling women because fuck those guys my only point was if people think the voluntary sex trade in these industries is going to stop you are just kidding yourself.

[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 1:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2017 1:09:13 PM

GREEN JAY
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You're dumping the problem on women. what can you do to not participate? I haven't paid for a fucking movie in like 5 years.

10/20/2017 1:12:05 PM

dtownral
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it's fucking sad that we are conflating these assaults with girls "offering it up"

they didn't "offer it up"

10/20/2017 1:14:45 PM

rjrumfel
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No, the girls that we're talking about here were assaulted plain and simple. There may be a whole host of actresses out there, and actors too, that offered up some type of quid pro quo, got work, and are ok with it.

But the discussion with Harvey Weinstein - these women were definitely not ok with it.

Also, I understand that it is probably almost all a power thing with this guy, but jeez, he has all the money in the world. If he has a problem, just hire the best prostitutes money can buy. I mean it still isn't legal, but it would keep him in a lot less trouble than the mess he's in now.

10/20/2017 1:19:04 PM

Doss2k
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What he said basically

10/20/2017 1:20:04 PM

dtownral
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but you seem to be saying that it's the fault of the people who "offer it up" that assaults like these happen

[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 1:22 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2017 1:22:26 PM

rjrumfel
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That's not what I'm saying, maybe Doss.

Perhaps Weinstein had some willing offers in the beginning and thus set his frame of mind that he could basically do what he wanted, but that is still nobody's fault but Weinstein's. Nobody to blame here but a pervert.

I'm sure there are some powerful folks in the industry that accept every quid pro quo act, and never cross a line like Weinstein did.

10/20/2017 1:31:55 PM

GREEN JAY
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It's not just Weinstein. Corey Feldman tried to talk about all the pedophiles that came on to him and are still in the industry on "The View" in 2014, and basically nobody gave a crap.

10/20/2017 1:57:10 PM

Doss2k
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All I am saying is the general overall problem of people trading sex for favors has been going on since the beginning of humanity and will continue as long as we are around. There is a clear difference between both parties being ok with it and when one is not. No sexual assault is ok I am simply referring to people crying on social media about all guys getting sex for favors being lumped in with a guy like Weinstein. All I was pointing out is that as long as there are women out there willingly participating there will be guys who accept it and I get that it just perpetuates the whole thing of women feeling like if they don't they will get left behind and that sucks but isnt gonna stop it from happening.

10/20/2017 1:59:08 PM

dtownral
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Bruh wtf, you're saying that we can't stop sexual assault because women offer it up?

10/20/2017 2:01:29 PM

Doss2k
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Nope, but I am saying that it surely makes it more difficult

There are those men who will take advantage of the free sex, its consensual on both parties, and life moves on.

Then there are those who will expect it, force it, etc and they should be in jail.

[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 2:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2017 2:12:06 PM

dtownral
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... and they expect it because of the women who "offer it up"

10/20/2017 2:44:00 PM

Doss2k
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They may not be the victims but it surely isn't helping anything wouldn't you agree?

10/20/2017 2:47:04 PM

GREEN JAY
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Doss, do you realize that even those who choose to 'play the game' are actually coerced into it?

Let's say you're getting your physical exam by a doctor, and he says it's prostate exam time. You're getting this guy's finger up your butt whether you want it or not. In the moment, it seems psychologically healthier to tell yourself you want it and take some solace in the 'power' that gives you over the fact that you have to get a finger up your butt to get your reward, which is not dying of undetected cancer. It doesn't mean that you actually wanted that doctor to stick his finger up your butt. But you consented and were rewarded for it.

Now just add in that you need this physical to get a job, and the doctor is a psycho who is going to do the exam even if you try to decline. Yay, you are employed and don't have cancer.

10/20/2017 3:11:20 PM

Doss2k
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Yes I am aware that the majority of women who do this stuff willingly are doing so because they have been told thats the norm or figure that's just the easy way. I have no idea how to fix that issue other than all women stop consenting but I just feel like thats never going to happen because at the end of the day its a vicious circle that will always keep going.

I am not victim blaming or condoning anything that isnt ok with both parties I am just saying I don't see how you solve the overall problem of people trading sex for favors.

10/20/2017 3:18:38 PM

GREEN JAY
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The people underneath them make them powerful. Look at all Weinstein's assistants who were aware of what was going on and participated. The people that did business with him and knew about it participated. If you have a conscience, I think your only option when you discover your company is doing something unethical is to take your talent somewhere else and/or report. Would you? Or would you say "There's no way to stop it" and just go on helping them in whatever morally objectionable affairs are attached to the business?

10/20/2017 3:27:13 PM

dtownral
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Doss if all you are saying is that it's hard to stop favors for sex, then what the hell does that have to do with this topic? The reason you are making that point in context of this argument is because you think the victims share the blame.

10/20/2017 3:36:29 PM

Doss2k
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Again I am in no way advocating any of the stuff that asshat did or others like him. Anyone involved with allowing clearly not ok things to happen should get their due justice. I am talking about the not so despicable side to the whole Hollywood trading sex for roles issue where the men arent forcing themselves on women and both parties are generally ok with it other than the women feeling like thats what they have to do to get into the business. Those women are helping perpetuate all of this indirectly because the men involved start to think all women should be willing to do this and clearly many of them start demanding or forcing it which is not ok.

Anyone who asks for sex in return for jobs should go to jail. Anyone who takes a job away from someone because they wont have sex with them should go to jail. Any girl who seduces someone specifically in hopes it will advance her career, even if its just because she thinks its expected, this just helps perpetuate that exact message. What I am saying is that sorta thing is going to keep happening and there isnt really a way to stop it and nothing illegal about it.

I guess what I am getting at is the non victim women in this whole thing are in the end helping to create an environment where other women do eventually become victims of things that are not their choosing because it becomes expected over time.


[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 3:42 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2017 3:38:16 PM

Doss2k
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Quote :
"Doss if all you are saying is that it's hard to stop favors for sex, then what the hell does that have to do with this topic? The reason you are making that point in context of this argument is because you think the victims share the blame."


Yes I kinda went off topic just have seen so much social media backlash about how all men are the worst and any and all sex for X reward has to be eliminated and all I was mostly trying to say is if that's what women want that's great but unrealistic there will always be women more than happy to do that sorta thing to get a leg up whether is right or not.

10/20/2017 3:50:35 PM

tulsigabbard
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we got on this not because of harvey but because of trumps "they let you do whatever you want" comment. no one was talking about sexual assault victims in that context.

10/20/2017 3:59:44 PM

Doss2k
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Oh well I dont believe anything Trump says he is clearly the type to assault women and not see anything wrong with it even if she says no

10/20/2017 4:02:35 PM

GREEN JAY
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Quote :
"I guess what I am getting at is the non victim women in this whole thing are in the end helping to create an environment where other women do eventually become victims of things that are not their choosing because it becomes expected over time."


Men are creating the issue as well by not quitting their fucking jobs or doing business with whomever when they hear about it.

10/20/2017 4:10:31 PM

Doss2k
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Agreed

10/20/2017 4:16:58 PM

AndyMac
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"I have no idea how to fix that issue other than all women stop consenting but I just feel like thats never going to happen because at the end of the day its a vicious circle that will always keep going."


How about exposing, fining, firing, and ostracizing the men (and women) who demand sexual favors for career advancement instead of doing their damn job like they are supposed to be doing it.

It surely won't stop it, but it can't hurt.

I mean even if we take the inherent sensitivity of sex and gender power dynamics out of the equation, what we are dealing with is pure corruption, just like any type of corruption, except the bribes are sex instead of money.

In a corrupt system you can't blame the people offering the bribes for the way the system works, because they have to deal with it. Try going to get a permit or something in Turkmenistan through proper channels without greasing some palms and you will get nowhere, ever. It's those in power who are imposing the system of corruption.

[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 5:56 PM. Reason : ]

10/20/2017 5:46:51 PM

tulsigabbard
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Its rarely that simple. I'll number the points for reference in future posts


ACT I: THE SOCIALIZING
Usually co-workers or random people are casually out somewhere such as dinner and having conversations. The male casually brings up topics that let the female know his power (where he works, lives, what he does, who he knows).

1. the woman knows she is not interested in the man sexually
2. the woman is impressed by something the man has mentioned in some way (job, money, networking),
3. the woman (consciously or subconsciously) sends positive body language signals to the man
4. the man now sees her as a potential sexual partner

ACT II: THE DATE
the man invites the woman to a drink or to come back to his apartment/home/hotel room late at night ALONE.

5. At the point, the boundary of professionalism has been crossed and the male is assuming its a date.
6. The woman has not said that its "not a date" and has not mitigated the expectation of sexual interest in any way
7. The woman has no interest in the man but does not want to decline because the man has power.
8. No one has offered anything in return for this "meeting"

ACT III: THE SEX
They get inside, have a few drinks, and thee man makes a move

9.At this point the woman can say "stop", "no" , "i'm not interested in you that way", or turn away and leave.
10. some women will freeze at this point and just let it happen because they are afraid the man will hurt them if they turn him down
11. some women will enthusiastically join in because they think its part of what they have to do to get what they want

9 is either going end with the man standing down or raping the woman (harvey weinstein) but some sexual assaults also come from 10 and its hard to tell with those cases. 10 is where the victim blaming and coercion can occur. 10 is the hard part. Doss and I are talking about 11.

11 encourages the man to repeat the entire process again and again which increases the rate of 10 in our society. I'm sure a lot of men go through their entire lives not knowing how many times they have done 10. They are getting 10 mixed up with 11 because only the woman knows at that point.


[Edited on October 20, 2017 at 8:32 PM. Reason : 11 makes the man feel invincible (numbers new]

10/20/2017 8:25:04 PM

0EPII1
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Director James Toback accused of sexual harassment

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41720154

Quote :
"Oscar-nominated Hollywood film-maker James Toback has been accused by nearly 40 women of sexual harassment.

The Los Angeles Times said 31 of the women had spoken on the record about their experiences, which span the last 30 years.

Toback has denied the allegations and said he had never met any of the women in question or, if he did, it "was for five minutes and have no recollection"."


At the end it says it is 76 women now.

Why would 76 women want to destroy an innocent man?

Occam's Razor.

10/23/2017 7:30:03 AM

Doss2k
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Yeah when its one or two you can probably at least be a little skeptical but with that many seems obvious there is something to the claims

10/23/2017 10:48:19 AM

tulsigabbard
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Quote :
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Why would 76 women want to destroy an innocent man?"

It could be because he pissed all of them off and is a huge asshole. Being hated or being an asshole is not a crime though. Theres a lot of reasons short of a crime which is why we don't have trial by mob and maintain the presumption of innocence regardless of how many accusers there are.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452960/metoo-meeting-trial-mob-

If all of these women were scenario 10, these woman could have just realized an incident that took place years ago could have been an assault. In that case, the system will have to sort out all of the evidence. Some of them could have been scenario 9 or 11 in which case, the court will be able to decide quite easily if there was a crime.

[Edited on October 23, 2017 at 7:28 PM. Reason : if you have a problem with the system, we should discuss them directly. there are legitimate issues.]

10/23/2017 7:03:26 PM

0EPII1
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Wtf is he a vampire too???

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/weinstein-accuser-forced-oral-sex-period-article-1.3585875

10/24/2017 10:58:54 PM

tulsigabbard
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This George H.W. Bush thing
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/25/entertainment/heather-lind-george-bush-harassment/index.html

10/25/2017 8:04:30 PM

Wolfey
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In regards to the Bush thing, does anyone find it odd 2 days after Weinstein "Completes" sex rehab an actress comes forward and alleges sexual assault against a former Republican President?

10/26/2017 8:00:16 AM

rjrumfel
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Is Bush Sr even with it enough to know what he's touching?

10/26/2017 8:06:21 AM

thegoodlife3
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^^ no, because that makes absolutely no sense

10/26/2017 8:14:44 AM

LastInACC
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Rehab is like Catholic version of going into confession right?

10/26/2017 10:11:23 AM

NCSUGimp
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i mean if someone asked me to suck a dick for a job i might do it, depending on the job

but if i said no thanks and then was mouth raped, yeah i'd be pissed.

10/26/2017 10:50:00 AM

tulsigabbard
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but what if you sucked it and the job fell through a few weeks later?

10/26/2017 11:42:44 AM

0EPII1
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HARVEY WEINSTEIN, CAUGHT ON TAPE
The film executive admits to groping a woman, in a recording secretly captured during an N.Y.P.D. sting operation.

http://video.newyorker.com/watch/harvey-weinstein-caught-on-tape

From Aggressive Overtures to Sexual Assault: Harvey Weinstein’s Accusers Tell Their Stories
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories

10/26/2017 1:05:03 PM

rjrumfel
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Dude that groping is one of the things that got this whole thing going.

10/26/2017 1:07:10 PM

synapse
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It's extra hilarious that he takes the time to bold [OLD] shit.

10/26/2017 1:39:50 PM

0EPII1
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GG Murrca... so much for "women's liberation"!

East or West, women are in oppressive and repressive cages, different types of cages (some overlapping), but cages nonetheless.

Quote :
"Annabella Sciorra accuses Weinstein of rape

WASHINGTON: Actress Annabella Sciorra has accused Harvey Weinstein of rape, detailing to The New Yorker Magazine her harrowing encounter with the now-disgraced movie mogul.

She joined dozens of women who have already leveled allegations of sexual abuse against the 65-year-old Weinstein.

Sciorra — who received an Emmy nomination for her role in the acclaimed television series “The Sopranos” — said in the early 1990s Weinstein forced his way into her apartment and violently raped her.

She said that before the alleged attack Weinstein came in “like he owned the place, and started unbuttoning his shirt.”

“It was very clear where he thought this was going to go.”

“I struggled, but I had very little strength left in me.”

“I was so ashamed,” Sciorra, now 57, said, adding that she fell into deep depression and stopped working for several years. She kept the graphic story under wraps for fear of professional backlash. Though she did eventually begin acting again Weinstein continued to harass her for years, Sciorra said.

The actress is now one of more than 50 women to accuse Weinstein of sexual abuse and harassment — a group that includes stars Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie and Mira Sorvino. Actress Daryl Hannah — who appeared in “Kill Bill: Volume 1,” which Weinstein produced — also said the powerful Hollywood executive aggressively pursued her but she managed to dodge his advances.

Hannah alleged Weinstein at one point “burst in like a raging bull” to her hotel room — where she was with a male makeup artist — and later asked to touch her inappropriately.

She said when she refused, “I experienced instant repercussions” in the film industry.

“I called all the powers that be and told them what had happened,” Hannah said. “It didn’t matter.”

Hannah said among those she told were Oscar-winning Quentin Tarantino."


What does this say about Murrcan society as a whole?

Whatever it says, it is extremely ugly and sick.

10/30/2017 1:05:25 PM

rjrumfel
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So Kevin Spacey is a pedophile? That seems to be the takeaway from scanning the headlines.

10/30/2017 1:23:55 PM

Flyin Ryan
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^^ Because Hollywood is representative of Middle America? Uh, no. Never been true.

^ An actor I don't recognize named Rapp said he had relations with Spacey at a party as a 14-year-old. Spacey didn't confirm or deny but chose the moment to announce publicly he is gay, which is being condemned by even the LGBT people.

[Edited on October 30, 2017 at 10:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2017 10:50:53 PM

dmspack
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yeah it seemed kinda fucked up spacey to be like "maybe i did it when i was drunk idk and also i'm gay". trying to have sex with a 14 y/o is a totally separate issue from a person being straight or gay

10/31/2017 6:48:28 AM

rjrumfel
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He's obviously hoping that coming out of the closet will overshadow his dirty deeds.

10/31/2017 11:35:36 AM

Nighthawk
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^^Anthony Rapp is the scientist on Star Trek: Discovery.

Also sucks that House of Cards has folded over this.

10/31/2017 11:42:46 AM

Bullet
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Quote :
"but chose the moment to announce publicly he is gay, which is being condemned by even the LGBT people"


of course the LBGT people are condeming it, because it feeds into the ignorant consertavite narrative that being "gay" and being a "pedophile' are equivalent.

10/31/2017 11:49:54 AM

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