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 Message Boards » » President Biden credibility watch Page 1 ... 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14, Prev Next  
rwoody
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Quote :
"think we should turn over as much as we can to non-armed police officers to de-escalate things related to mental illness, homelessness, and drug abuse"'."


That's defund the police

Quote :
"Every department should have a public record of complains against officers, public record of investigations, body cams, access to de-esclation training and resources to expand community efforts in the form of mental health resources, outreach programs, etc. Biden seems 100% for this, which I support."


Many departments already have some or all of these things and police violence is still rampant. These reforms are pushed every few years, things are put in place, and then nothing really changes.

All of these go beyond those reforms and could be pushed at a national level.
Quote :
"How about ending qualified immunity
How about a national no hire list for violent offenders
How about crunching down on police unions
How about overtime fraud investigations"


And he could pledge that $300 mil to developing community support organizations in test cities with willing leadership instead of to the police. 300 mil split up to a couple cities, or to one big city, would certainly be a carrot.

Also reposting this from the police thread. Many of these would have to be pushed locally but others can be national, and once again Biden can help set the tone for local options.


[Edited on June 16, 2020 at 12:11 PM. Reason : E]

6/16/2020 12:07:30 PM

daaave
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"Dave is taking this as 'HUR DUR STATES RIGHTS'"


1. Don't use able-ist slurs, thanks.

2. Telling people that voting is most important is incredibly tone-deaf since many of the worst police departments are in Democrat-controlled areas. And these discussions & reforms are happening only after weeks of direct action. So it would seem that the best way to enact change is through mass revolt.

3. There are things a Democratic president can do other than deny funding to Democratic governors. It involves having a backbone and using the voice that the office of President and leader of the party gives a person.

4. You seem to still believe that the role of police within our society is to protect and serve the people, which runs counter to the work of just about every prominent civil rights activist. Here's a great book that examines the role of police throughout the history of this country, and the e-book is free right now: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing

We need to wrest as much control as possible away from this racist institution and divert it toward public services that don't have roots in slave patrols and the maintenance of class stratification.

5. Mandatory rehabilitation

Quote :
"That's defund the police "


These functions shouldn't be handled by police, even non-armed ones.

[Edited on June 16, 2020 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

6/16/2020 12:09:53 PM

rwoody
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Yea i saw "turn over" and "non armed" and missed "police officers".

6/16/2020 12:13:24 PM

daaave
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Biden doesn't seem to have a clear stance on that point because he at first said "social workers with police backup" and then said "unarmed police".

6/16/2020 12:17:01 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"Trump to call for increased funding for police training https://t.co/A6kmjrwiSf"


Well we'll see what comes but Biden may not even have much policy separation from Trump. Heck if the house bill gets through without qual immunity, and passes and is signed, Trump will be able to claim he's done more.

6/16/2020 12:21:42 PM

bbehe
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Quote :
"That's defund the police"


Depends on how it does. In the example you quoted the phrase is 'non-armed police', that's not really defunding the police. If you add counselors/subject matter experts on mental health/addiction to the police ranks, that's also not defund the police.

Quote :
"Many departments already have some or all of these things and police violence is still rampant. These reforms are pushed every few years, things are put in place, and then nothing really changes."


Things weren't perfect under Obama by any stretch, but Sessions undoing all the reforms that Obama did at the Federal level hurt. This again goes to my point on why shit at the federal level is harder. The DoJ can help provide oversight, but it can just go away when the next guy takes over. Local and State governments passing laws which would require super majorities to repeal is more likely to stick.

Quote :
""How about ending qualified immunity"


I don't think this is the silver bullet you may think it is. Even if Floyd's family sue the officers involved in his death, they're going to get peanuts unless of of the officers is rich. Suing the state/city is far more effective.

Regardless, Biden is for reforming that

Quote :
"In a brief telephone interview with The Philadelphia Tribune later Tuesday, the former vice president also called for reforms to hold police more accountable when they are accused of abuse and wrong doing, including seeking to reform qualified immunity."


Quote :
"How about a national no hire list for violent offenders"


Biden is for this info being open to the public. I don't think you can enforce it besides simply saying 'no funding for you if you hire from this list', which again, Biden has mentioned

Quote :
"How about crunching down on police unions"


Define that? Like what could be done at the Federal Level for this. What policy could Biden support

Quote :
"How about overtime fraud investigations"


Provided OT pay isn't coming from the Federal level, again, what policy at the Federal Level could Biden support?

6/16/2020 12:22:53 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"'non-armed police', that's not really defunding the police. If you add counselors/subject matter experts on mental health/addiction to the police ranks, that's also not defund the police"


Those are bad policy ideas

Quote :
"Local and State governments passing laws which would require super majorities to repeal is more likely to stick."


NY had a law against choke holds, didnt help Eric garner or get the officer prosecuted, barely got him fired. Atlanta had deescalation training, didn't help raynard Brooks. Had AA officers, didn't help those colleges students that got the shit kicked out of them. How many stories do you hear about body cams not being turned on?

Quote :
"don't think this is the silver bullet you may think it is. Even if Floyd's family sue the officers involved in his death, they're going to get peanuts unless of of the officers is rich. Suing the state/city is far more effective."


Right but then wrong, lawsuits need to hit cops where it matters, in their pensions. Suing state/city punishes taxpayers for police misconduct. And I never said silver bullet, that's why I made a list?

Quote :
"Regardless, Biden is for reforming that"


Can you give more details on his position. "reform" is a mealy mouthed word that allows you to avoid details. How can you even reform immunity? It needs ti be abolished.

Quote :
"don't think you can enforce it besides simply saying 'no funding for you if you hire from this list',"


You could pass a law

Quote :
"Define that? Like what could be done at the Federal Level for this. What policy could Biden support"


Man if there is one thing the national govt is good at, it's busting unions. Police unions aren't for the common good of society, they are there to allow police to continue to do what they always do and face no consequences.

Quote :
"Provided OT pay isn't coming from the Federal level, again, what policy at the Federal Level could Biden support?"


doj fraud investigations from a policy level.



And beyond federal policy, you seem to refuse to believe or engage that Biden can have any influence over state/local policy. If he can't he will be a shit president.

6/16/2020 12:43:06 PM

bbehe
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Klobmentum officially dead.

6/18/2020 10:32:54 PM

StTexan
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Thank God. Not that she ever had a realistic chance anyway.

6/18/2020 10:51:45 PM

bbehe
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I still have my fingers crossed it'll be Duckworth

6/18/2020 11:04:01 PM

StTexan
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I hope the bottoms lady from atl or the jennings lady from FL. Either one. Distant third harris. I base that on campaign signs nothing more. Except harris i just think is kind of snake in the grass. Biden/duckworth sounds like a cartoon. The other names after biden sound ok. Although not a big fan of biden/bottoms alteration. Please just anyone but warren or abrams

[Edited on June 18, 2020 at 11:20 PM. Reason : But duckworth before abrams or warren please]

6/18/2020 11:19:27 PM

daaave
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My guess is this was Klobuchar being petty about Warren being the front runner for VP.

It’s all a whole embarrassing mess either way.

6/18/2020 11:49:44 PM

bbehe
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Lol that's not how it works

6/19/2020 7:58:05 AM

NyM410
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What’s embarrassing about it? I honestly don’t get it?

Its petty politics but nothing too out of the ordinary. It’s not in the ballpark of phone banking for someone who called your wife ugly and claimed your dad killed JFK. THAT is embarrassing.

6/19/2020 8:40:11 AM

bbehe
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Warren never had a realistic shot imho. 70+, Mass. would have to write a new law to protect her Senate seat, etc.

Klobuchar was likely informed she didn't make the cut (or saw the writing on the wall) and was given a chance to bow out. It's basically common knowledge now that the VP pick is going to be a PoC, so I don't doubt that Warren does basically the same thing in the next few weeks. This thing gets some free media attention and happens every 4 years.

Lets be honest though, there are some people who will count any pick that Biden makes as a blow to his credibility. Unless he picks Bernie and then immediately drops out.

6/19/2020 8:45:06 AM

rwoody
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^^for one, if she wanted Biden to pick a WOC she should have removed herself long ago. It's such a blatant political stunt.

6/19/2020 10:05:08 AM

bbehe
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Lol, not even worth debating. There is no move that she or Biden could have made that you wouldn't have objected to

6/19/2020 10:26:33 AM

rwoody
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Cool! Lucky I was responding to NYMs question not debating.

I don't know what Biden even really has to do with it, I was talking solely about Klob

6/19/2020 10:39:49 AM

daaave
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Quote :
"^^for one, if she wanted Biden to pick a WOC she should have removed herself long ago. It's such a blatant political stunt."


Neither Biden nor Klobuchar gave a shit about black people until it became politically convenient.

And the fact that two of the three WOC frontrunners are former cops is just the cherry on top.

[Edited on June 19, 2020 at 12:58 PM. Reason : .]

6/19/2020 12:58:42 PM

bbehe
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I'm assuming you're talking about Harris (not a cop) and Demmings (was a cop)

6/19/2020 1:18:05 PM

daaave
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AGs are cops. Harris literally called herself the top cop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_general#United_States

Quote :
"In nearly all United States jurisdictions the attorney general is the chief law enforcement officer of that jurisdiction, and as such attorney general may also be considered a police rank."


[Edited on June 19, 2020 at 1:24 PM. Reason : .]

6/19/2020 1:22:43 PM

bbehe
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Neat

6/19/2020 1:27:04 PM

TerdFerguson
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Seems like occams razor would suggest that Klobuchar said “pick a WOC” as VP is because her state just became the epicenter of black activism, which is pretty broadly popular among her electorate. She’s smart enough to know that she is going to need every sound bite (And hopefully some policy positions too) to survive her primary.

Also, Warren polls as high or higher than Harris or Abrams among black voters. Some of that could be name-recognition related, but she also pulls some support from actual activists and their organizations too:
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article243566952.html

The whole “Biden has to pick a WOC” is kind of a simplistic, media-fed analysis of what Black voters want IMO. Yes, we need more black and brown faces in positions of power, but people also want significant movement on policy, and they think Warren might be a decent answer for the moment.

6/20/2020 8:25:44 AM

horosho
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Biden's vetting officially begins...

Trump is strawmanning all of Biden's positions as the most extreme positions from the party. This creates quite the conundrum for Biden not just because it forces him to talk, but because it forces him to either take the hit (and alienate the middle) OR clarify how he actually rejects nearly ALL the policies his base supports. It also presents a problem because Biden won't be able to articulate enough nuance to dance around these positions in the way a sly neoliberal might. Should Biden just let Trump lie about his platform or campaign against himself?

6/20/2020 9:58:16 PM

bbehe
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No it doesn't. Biden can't basically just ignore the shit coming out of Trump's mouth. His attacks on Biden simply aren't landing

6/21/2020 4:19:30 PM

shoot
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Biden looks like he's almost DONE. He can't afford one single punch in the face from Trump at all.

6/22/2020 10:34:02 AM

NyM410
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Really putting the anal in analysis there.

6/22/2020 10:56:37 AM

rwoody
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Jeez NYM, what you got against anal??

6/22/2020 11:30:30 AM

moron
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Biden’s lead has been steadily growing so far. I can’t imagine Bolton’s book is going to help trump over the next 2 weeks.

Whatever Biden is doing is working and whatever trump is doing is not working. Trumps team is trying to spin his weird rally comments on water and walking as a win but I don’t think that’s working. They’re trying to walk back trumps comments about testing as a joke, but no one is buying that.

Bolton has made clear that’s trumps foreign policy is completely vacuous, which has been obvious, but now we know for sure.

I can’t think of anything that would sink Biden at this point other than a major health issue— which is very possible. Biden is feeble. The debates could be a Hail Mary for trump because trump does talk a lot faster than Biden.

6/22/2020 12:03:20 PM

utowncha
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why provoke behe with comments like "biden is feeble" ??

6/22/2020 12:23:58 PM

bbehe
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^^ If they attack Biden for being feeble, then they lower expectations for him in the debate. All he has to do is not drool over himself and he'll look great.

I think all Biden has to do is repeat performances at the Dem debate of doing 'okay', respecting the rules, etc. If Trump wants to ramble, let him ramble

^ Sanders, Warren, and Biden were the last 3 left in the primary. I hated this fact. Dems needed to nominate someone younger or at least someone without health concerns

[Edited on June 22, 2020 at 12:28 PM. Reason : a]

6/22/2020 12:27:49 PM

NyM410
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I don’t agree wrt a lowered bar. It’s true any appearance Trump doesn’t fling fences around is greeted as the long-last pivot but is there any precedent for Biden being treated the same? I really haven’t seen it.

People expect him to be competent and not an asshole and every time he has a gaffe or is an ass it is pretty big news.

Physically, is Biden feeble? I haven’t really noticed that. Obviously his mental acuity isn’t what it once was..

6/22/2020 12:40:38 PM

bbehe
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Physically he seems in great shape for his age.

6/22/2020 12:45:55 PM

synapse
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He seems better now than he was months ago

6/22/2020 1:43:13 PM

Exiled
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He's had months of rest and is off the stress of the primary campaign trail.

6/22/2020 2:17:26 PM

rwoody
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It sucks to say but Covid is great for Biden. If there isn't a major turnaround in cases (seems unlikely) or a turnaround in Trump's handling (even more unlikely), he could prob coast if he avoids any major scandals.

6/22/2020 2:27:42 PM

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+ Cheetos responses to Floyd protests

6/22/2020 3:03:23 PM

rwoody
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Yea def but Covid probably pumps that up too. Peoples unemployed and struggling with bills only adds to the fury. A perfect storm of terrible things and a completely unprepared and uninterested incumbent.

6/22/2020 3:53:09 PM

horosho
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Quote :
"No it doesn't. Biden can't basically just ignore the shit coming out of Trump's mouth. His attacks on Biden simply aren't landing"

I'm assuming you meant to type *can* as opposed to *can't* otherwise the two statements seem contradicting.

If you did mean *can* then yes for now that is true but if people start to find out about them and about his record, which they inevitably will in the lead up to the election, he may be forced to answer. This is why there will continue to be a debate about if he should even participate in the debates. The best bet is going into the election with no additional exposure. If the election was today, he'd win easily but each day presents more people with the chance to learn about him.

[Edited on June 22, 2020 at 4:21 PM. Reason : the debates would basically just be trump dragging him into the mud. ]

6/22/2020 4:21:13 PM

bbehe
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I did mean 'can', thanks.

I don't think attacking his record works. People know who Biden is, for better or worse. Trump can point to the crime bill that's a fucking joke compared to his reaction to the Floyd riots because he's unrestrained. Him screaming 'I'VE DONE MORE FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY..." is laughable to most people. Acting like Biden is an unknown is wrong.

6/22/2020 6:48:46 PM

horosho
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Biden's record is unknown to most of his supporters. He's known yes but the extent of that knowledge is "He was Obama's VP, so Obama liked him therefore he must be good and we know he's not racist because he's the highest person to ever have accept a black man as boss"

[Edited on June 24, 2020 at 3:04 AM. Reason : go ask some what they like about biden and i guarantee they will all say "obama"]

6/24/2020 3:02:52 AM

bbehe
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Even if that was true, I don't think you realize how many people simply don't care. They want Trump out of office

6/24/2020 6:21:44 AM

shoot
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So Obama is still behind the curtain. Lol

6/24/2020 6:26:41 AM

NyM410
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^^ earl hates Southern black people because they are more ideological conservative but there were multiple articles about SC and the constant was literally exactly what he said facetiously.

They believe Joe Biden is a man they can trust and believe in precisely because he ALWAYS had Obama’s back and never once complained.

That might not be a good reason to support him for people living in a bubble like me but who am I to question why they support him?

6/24/2020 11:17:29 AM

horosho
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Those conservatives don't matter because they are mostly in Trump states. I'm thinking more about the people in swing states who don't follow politics until right around the election.

They only want Biden because Trump has abused women, caged kids at the border, doesn't want medicare for all, doesn't want to defund the police, denies climate change, has a racist past, wants to stop illegal immigration, used his position to enrich his family, supported harsh drug laws, sent in the national guard to hose and teargas protesters, fueled the explosion of POC prison population, is against legalization of weed, supported the patriot act, supported the war, supported DOMA, opposed Roe V Wade, ignored sexual assault to send someone to SCOTUS, wants to cut social security, supported NAFTA, supported TPP, supported credit card companies, and supported the soft drink industry. They will do anything to oppose a someone like that

[Edited on June 24, 2020 at 1:53 PM. Reason : wait for it]

6/24/2020 1:51:48 PM

bbehe
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BOTH SIDES ARE THE SAME

6/24/2020 2:21:00 PM

NyM410
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Biden = Trump and when people find out they will stay home or vote Trump.

I have a big brain.

6/24/2020 2:26:02 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"Angela Davis in 2020. important read. https://t.co/D9nEpgWwGj"



[Edited on June 24, 2020 at 10:39 PM. Reason : E]

6/24/2020 10:38:31 PM

horosho
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Oof. Logical reasoning if its true but she provided no evidence to support the reasoning. That long post leaves out support showing HOW Joe Biden is secretly amenable to pressure from the left or will suddenly be controlled by the left when he takes office. Its literally what FOX NEWS and Trump are always telling us (again, with no evidence) but Biden is not. Biden is a shell who will be controlled by the far left radicals.

Maybe she has insider information but I don't see why we should just believe what Angela Davis says about Joe Biden over what Joe Biden says about Joe Biden. Plus we have an entire career's body of work with Biden not giving in to protests from the left.

And despite all that, no one has put any effort into convincing us to give up all of the momentum we've built over the last 4 years (something special is happening) in exchange for blind faith that an old man will suddenly become something he's never been. Namedropping and commands without any roadmap beyond the ballot box is elitist

[Edited on June 25, 2020 at 12:16 AM. Reason : no matter how much i respect you, im not gonna just believe something because you said it. receipts]

6/25/2020 12:14:20 AM

bbehe
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Us? And here I thought you were a proud green party supporter and now you're talking like a Trump campaign surrogate.

6/25/2020 7:26:28 AM

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