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TreeTwista10
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"I think it is time for ACC to become more united andstop fighting one another. The NCAA has become a BS rogue SEC laden organization. "


Yeah!

6/17/2017 12:37:32 AM

TreeTwista10
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"I'm guessing that every school in Division 1 has counselors that assist athletes with things such as getting placed into classes, selecting classes, checking in on grades, etc. If this is what the NCAA is saying is the "lack of institutional control" then 1) every school in the country is likely to have LOIC and 2) why are they pointing specifically to the AFAM classes and not the assistance to athletes in getting assistance to all majors/departments across the board?"


bless his heart

http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/Board/102711/Contents/UNC-NCAA-Sparring-Over-Bylaw-Interpretation--105464277

[Edited on July 26, 2017 at 3:09 AM. Reason : .]

7/26/2017 3:07:50 AM

dalecooter
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"I need some clarification here........Bilas says what we did was "absolutely wrong". WHAT was absolutely wrong?"

amazingly this poor poster can't even see that unc did ANYTHING wrong. at least most of those morons agree sure the school did some shady junk academic wise but it's outside of the NCAA's jurisdiction. that fool thinks they are the epitome of academic excellence

[Edited on August 8, 2017 at 1:31 PM. Reason : wrong slash every damn time]

8/8/2017 1:31:21 PM

Nighthawk
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"Legitimate" news story blasting the NCAA for their overreach. Authored by Bradley Bethel.

http://chapelboro.com/sports/unc-sports/ncaa-setting-dangerous-precedent-in-unc-case

8/11/2017 8:36:53 AM

dmspack
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i know unc fans cling to the idea that this is all a witch hunt by the biased media. but it's pretty telling that the only voices from the media in UNC's corner are there own faculty or former faculty or complete UNC homers. national and local media may disagree on what punishment should be and they may differ on other parts as well...but from what i've read and seen it appears to be near universal agreement that UNC royally fucked up and the NCAA is right to investigate and punish. and we're in a climate of pretty anti-NCAA sentiment from all corners of the media and a lot of fan bases...and very few people (maybe none, outside of UNC guys like Bethel and Chansky) think the NCAA is in the wrong here.

but that's obviously all anti-unc bias

8/11/2017 10:21:58 AM

jbtilley
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Help me out here. What's the apologetic for the academic fraud being outside the scope of the NCAA?

Do athletes have to be academically eligible to play in sports? If a university implements programs to keep kids academically eligible that otherwise wouldn't be eligible to play in games, how is that not the NCAA's concern?

What's the justification? That if the kids took real courses then they may have passed them? Or am I wrong about the kids needing to meet a certain academic standard to participate in games?

I'm trying to understand their perspective, help me out here.

8/11/2017 12:40:31 PM

scotieb24
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They try to say that the NCAA can't determine what UNC qualifies as a class or being academically eligible. Basically, if UNC academics says sham classes are fine then that is UNC's prerogative.

8/11/2017 1:52:15 PM

AstralEngine
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They NCAA definitely gets to determine what "academically eligible" is. The problem is that they have no power to enforce any standards of academic rigor.

So when UNC decided it would rather fuck over athletes to make millions of dollars than uphold any standard of academic excellence, the NCAA really didn't have any jurisdiction to tell them they did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, the academic institutions (SACS) whose job it is to enforce the standards of academic rigor also told everyone that they don't really care about the student athlete population as a percentage of the academic whole. They were willing to write off decades of fake classes and free grades as an anomaly and give UNC a stern talking to, then welcome them back into the fold with open arms.

So the problem for the NCAA becomes this: what stops everyone from pulling a UNC? If they let UNC go with basically no punishment, then it's bye bye NCAA because schools are going to go open season on doing whatever it takes to keep athletes eligible. They may as well abandon the standards. But what if they hammer UNC without actual jurisdiction? Then likely UNC sues them and they end up in a long arduous legal battle.

What's likely to happen? The NCAA lets UNC off with little punishment because they have to, then passes new emergency rules to give them the power to enforce issues like this in the future. The problem is they can't hammer UNC for it after the fact.

8/11/2017 3:50:56 PM

dmspack
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also, unc can claim that these classes were not exclusive to athletes, making this an issue on the academic side, but not specific to athletics. and while that is technically true (there were non athletes in the classes, they weren't closed off to the student body) it was a very disproportionate athlete to non-athlete ratio in these classes. that's really where unc is digging its heels in. they can claim that since these classes were open to everybody, it was not preferential treatment toward athletes. instead, these were just very easy classes with teachers that were bending/breaking rules but there was nothing explicitly providing athletes with benefits that weren't also available to the rest of the student body. which is a fairly bullshit argument when you look at just how many students were in these classes...they were absolutely aimed at keeping athletes eligible and i think a lot of the emails they've made public help make that case.

8/11/2017 4:52:57 PM

TreeTwista10
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"Any probation deserves a lawsuit. If we accept any probation, the label of cheater will persist to perpetuity. UNC didn't cheat, there was NO athletic impropriety with academics."


how cute

8/19/2017 5:25:49 PM

justinh524
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^^they weren't "open to the student body". Non-athletes had to get approval in order to sign up for the joke classes. Athletes did not.

8/20/2017 10:40:45 AM

NCSUMEB
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dmspack and Astral, I can appreciate trying to see the other side's point of view, but nothing that UNC said defending their actions is true. The fake classes were 46% athletes, and athletes make up 4% of the undergraduate program. Even these numbers are likely cooked and even worse. This is statistically relevant and is a direct correlation, now a school like UNC isn't so great at math so they just lie instead. Yo don't have 4% of a population committing 46% of the fraud without "the hookup."

There are also numerous emails with Puppet Master Debbie Crowder that show her discussing enrolling athlete X or athlete Y but needing to add a few regular students to make it look good from an NCAA perspective. It's open and shut. There were also independent studies courses created for only one revenue athlete on many occasions. Plenty of emails that Kane put together to reveal that while the actual "in person" course was full of regular students taught by a real instructor (but still pathetically easy). So UNC can hypothetically say: AFAM 201 had 20 students and only five were athletes but three of the five athletes took it as Independent study (hint- Crowder "handled" it) and the other 17 took it in the classroom with Nyangoro (Which was still pathetically easy) and tutors handled the other two athletes in the physical classroom. This is just a conservative example to illustrate the point but the numbers (of athletes) were probably worse

While the NCAA doesn't have the jurisdiction to determine the rigor of classes, they certainly can come in and lay the boom down if athletes received preferential treatment into the fake classes as opposed to regular students, which they did, which was proven years ago, the email chains left by Crowder/Boxill are egregious. The soccer coach, Anson Dorrance is also in on those emails, don't know how he didn't lose his job. Also, an athlete is ineligible if he's in a fake class regardless if a regular student is in the section with a physical classroom(not that they were, as guys like Mcants didn't even have an actual classroom). A few months ago Cunningham actually admitted academic fraud, just that it wasn't the NCAA's jurisdiction. SO I don't know how UNC is going to refute that Mcants (and about 50 other hoopsters since 1993) were ineligible, just that McCants already explained his situation.





[Edited on August 24, 2017 at 9:44 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2017 9:40:37 AM

dmspack
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yeah unc's argument is 100% bullshit and the ncaa should be able to see through it completely. i was just trying to answer the question that was posed about "how can they argue this outside the ncaa's scope". yeah, this should be fairly cut and dry...unc is trying to get out of this, essentially, on a technicality. they aren't claiming innocence, they're just claiming the ncaa doesn't have the jurisdiction for this.

but yeah. that's a bullshit argument that really doesn't hold water, like you said.

[Edited on August 24, 2017 at 10:31 AM. Reason : g]

8/24/2017 10:31:06 AM

fenway
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The fact that the NCAA hasn't been able to totally decimate UNC yet still leads me to think that it won't happen. The whole "regular students were in the classes too" and "every school has easy classes" arguments are absolutely ridiculous.

UNC's entire defense is built on semantics and that they're willing to throw the University's academic reputation under the bus in order to save Roy and the basketball program. The classes were set up to keep athletes eligible, and the fact that other normal students were in them shouldn't mean anything IMO. Especially when you have a guy like McCants come out, provide explicit proof with his transcript, and say that he would not have been eligible to play that spring 2005 semester had he not been in these sham classes and received all A's and B's after nearly failing out of school the previous semester. The Wainstein Report provided more than a few examples of emails where members of the academic-advising side of things clearly were aiming to steer athletes into these specific classes to where their eligibility wouldn't be in question going forward.

If they totally let UNC skate on this, I don't see how schools simply stand by and operate as is. UNC set up a way that was essentially making it so no athlete could ever "technically" be ruled ineligible, UNC tried to hold up the NCAA at every turn, UNC tried to do things like hiding behind FERPA, UNC paid $millions$ for legal and PR assistance, and they've still been able to still operate their athletic department at a high level despite being involved in this scandal. Other schools will have free reign to do the same unless UNC gets hammered - and even then UNC will still have all the $ that they gained from having a blue blood basketball program and the success that that program brought over the last 2+ decades.

[Edited on August 24, 2017 at 2:34 PM. Reason : tbdv]

8/24/2017 2:33:10 PM

NCSUMEB
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Two things regarding Mcants. One, he admitted that he never stepped foot in a classroom for an entire semester and plenty of other no show classes before the Spring 2005. Subpar students do not get to take independent studies classes at any other universities, so this is clearly an extra benefit provided in this case to a top revenue athlete. We'd need to see a host of other 12/15 hour semesters from other sub 2.2 GPA students getting the same treatment at UNC and enrollment into 4 (an entire semester's worth) IS courses. What was UNC's official school policy on IS courses? Is it published? It usually requires a number of signatures and approvals all the way from low level staff to department heads at normal universities to take one, let alone an entire semester's worth (from a subpar student GPA wise no less).

Two, he admitted their was only one assignment the entire course which was a short paper, which tutors wrote for him (that the tutors themselves plagiarized and recycled semester after semester among the circle of tutors). He's ineligible, that's cheating by anyone's determination. Mcants' individual situation has nothing to do with "easy" classes, and neither does the lot of them. Nothing. I guess since this was revealed all the way back in 2014 UNC admin expects people (and the NCAA?) to have forgotten?

ETA - The NCAA could come out and say that Roy Williams is the present day Ghandi, and that other than Rashad Mcants, UNC has geniuses for their athletes and they all have perfect 4.0 GPAs. And none of that would refute the fact that Mcants was ineligible in 2005 (and probably 2004 as well) and the banner needs to come down. Mcants' eligibility is binary, either he was or he wasn't. And if he wasn't then the title would be vacated. SO to leave the 2005 banner up, is to say that Mcants was perfectly eligible and that' s just laughable.


[Edited on August 24, 2017 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2017 3:05:42 PM

TreeTwista10
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re: normal students also being able to take the classes

I believe normal students couldn't just sign into their scheduling system and get into the paper class sections, they had to have permission from an academic advisor. Whereas the student athletes could just enroll in them as much as they wanted. So yes, a disproportionate number of the kids taking the classes weren't athletes, but they had to get special permission to join the classes

8/24/2017 3:24:57 PM

AstralEngine
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You guys are picking the narrative you prefer, which isn't necessarily the objective view of the matter.

I'd argue that the percentage make-up of athletes is irrelevant, except to show irrefutably that the courses were available and attended by both athletes and non-athletes. Advisers have always enrolled athletes in their classes, and independent studies courses are always conjured from the ether for students who want to enroll in them. Whether or not the athletes met the minimum academic requirements to be eligible for independent studies classes is not an issue for the NCAA. The number of independent studies classes that make up a reasonable degree audit is not an issue for the NCAA.

/devilsadvocate

8/25/2017 10:28:41 AM

LudaChris
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^This is more right then most NC State fans want to believe.

It's free to anyone to take, doesn't matter what % of kids were athletes versus non-athletes. Plus, the whole bylaw argument is going to be really hard for the NCAA to get over, it's not about the "spirit" of the matter, it's about the letter of the law.

The fact that people still think this is going to be an open-and-shut case for the NCAA is crazy to me. UNC wouldn't have spent millions of dollars or spit in the NCAA's face when it tried to just paint it all on the women's bball team if they didn't know they were going to win this.

NCAA will hand out a fairly harsh punishment, UNC will appeal, punishments will be pushed off until court case, UNC will win in court. NCAA says they tried to be firm but over-ruled by courts due to bylaws and they'll go in and update the bylaws to "make sure this never happens again."

UNC wins, NCAA saves face, and the rest of college fans just shakes their head in disgust as UNC enjoys their banners.

8/25/2017 11:59:32 AM

TerdFerguson
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^^,^good chance these are on the money

The only thing that keeps me slightly hopeful is the army of lawyers that are just circling the NCAA right now. Anti-trust, fair compensation, player unionization, a buncha stuff is likely gonna make it to court over the next decade. The NCAA's defense for most of these rests on its interpretation of the "spirit" of amateurism. A significant part of that amateurism rests on the fair trade of a college education for athletic ability. If the NCAA can't maintain that trade as fair (sham classes are not an education), then suddenly I think the NCAA's defense falls apart pretty quickly and gives the lawyers a massive jumping off point for their various lawsuits.

So while I think y'all are right that UNC challenges in court and could win, the NCAA really has to go down swinging in this case and really do whatever they can to punish UNC. I mean some of these lawsuits could be existential threats to the NCAA. That means $billions in revenue could rest on what the NCAA does here. Surely that's more sacred than UNC's "mythical" athletics program.

8/25/2017 1:10:52 PM

Doss2k
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"UNC wins, NCAA saves face, and the rest of college fans just shakes their head in disgust as UNC enjoys their banners."


Which is why it is important that if they get away with it that no one ever acknowledges those titles anymore. 1982 was their last title dont let them tell you any differently.

8/25/2017 1:14:05 PM

DonMega
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This seems like it should be from TheOnion - http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article170410162.html

Quote :
"It’s clear ‘the ceiling is the roof’ at Kenan Stadium"


8/31/2017 1:35:17 PM

NCSUMEB
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"You guys are picking the narrative you prefer, which isn't necessarily the objective view of the matter.

I'd argue that the percentage make-up of athletes is irrelevant, except to show irrefutably that the courses were available and attended by both athletes and non-athletes. Advisers have always enrolled athletes in their classes, and independent studies courses are always conjured from the ether for students who want to enroll in them. Whether or not the athletes met the minimum academic requirements to be eligible for independent studies classes is not an issue for the NCAA. The number of independent studies classes that make up a reasonable degree audit is not an issue for the NCAA. "


It's hard to argue that the whole 4/48% thing is irrelevant. It's not the end all be all, but it's part of the case to be made that athletes were given preferential treatment to get into the classes, and that whole Deborah Crowder email chain of her single handedly picking who gets in and who doesn't (UNC never references this, I wonder why not). Oh, Deborah Crowder, she isn't even an adviser, shes a secretary who makes coffee for Dr. N'yangoro. In fact, it's likely her actions (which include forgeries) would result in Pell Grant fraud charges if the Feds cared, never mind the NCAA. Moreover, admitted plagiarism (Mcants) is directly in the NCAA wheelhouse. Plagiarism isn't in the same context as the whole "academic rigor" debate UNC admin has been pushing. It's absolutely embarrassing that someone would say mass plagiarism just means the course was "less rigorous." Um no, plagiarism makes it fraud. Ol Debbie left a hundred email chains about plagiarism too.

There is no "devils advocate" for a secretary playing puppet master and enrolling anyone (and lets assume she enrolled regular students at a 99/1 clip) in any course IMO, independent studies or physical classroom. That alone would get another school shut down, or at least that department. Her numerous email chain is just the gravy. But I certainly understand about the NCAA not laying down punishments that affect the future (which I personally don't care about) but the 05 and 09 titles would be null and void by any reasonable interpretation by the NCAA. Giving them a 2 year tournament ban is stupid and would be funny for two years and then they'd go right back to final four status in year 3/4.

9/1/2017 9:53:17 AM

cptinsano
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Imagine if Jimmy V just got wasted before the espy speech and said some dumb shit like "Giving up is Quitting" and we'd have to embrace it like these asshats.

9/1/2017 10:45:41 AM

dmspack
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not only embrace it, but embrace it in a totally different sport with a logo depicting a totally different sport. just fucking weird.

9/1/2017 10:52:10 AM

steviewonder
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^^when you dont consider the whole student athlete population and just look at MBB specifically it gets harder to explain.

How do the same ~ 8 kids(got a few Brock Papplecock IVs on the team to keep grades up like anywhere else) manage to get enrolled in these 400 level IS classes that were opened for enrollment at 7AM, filled up with football and BB players at 7:01 AM, and subsequently closed for enrollment at 7:02 AM?

Some of these scenarios are very hard to explain off yet UNC has been allowed to water it down to

"52%%%% ARE NON ATHLETES"

9/1/2017 11:47:21 AM

Nighthawk
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Meltdown incoming right now.

9/2/2017 4:04:00 PM

dtownral
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i like how UNC made their football game about basketball and they still couldn't get fans to show up

9/11/2017 9:11:58 AM

Nighthawk
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^Or MJ.

9/11/2017 9:40:37 AM

cptinsano
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MJ had travel issues due to the hurricane.

Hurricane seen below:

9/11/2017 11:32:03 AM

SSS
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IC'ers blaming poor turnout at football games on playing "no name" teams, yet haven't beaten said "no name" teams.

9/16/2017 1:45:14 PM

dalecooter
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"

I'm wondering what it would take to remove state college from our list of cross-division rivals from football each year. While the on-field product garners attention and revenue, it seems things have gotten quite nasty the last five years and the vitriol is seeping into the non-sports realm. Take for instance the request by some BoG members to move out of Chapel Hill. These antics are based on the "perceived bias" toward Chapel Hill- aka little brother syndrome, without any real merit. Is it really worth maintaining this rivalry? A few points:

NCST grads care way more about the rivalry than UNC folks. I get it's important to them, but when the barometer of your program's success is based on the demise of another college (not just in sports, but in general), and you consistently underperform compared to the thing you hate most, there's nothing left to enjoy. A snowball of inferiority, self hatred, and martyrdom.

Also, fans of state college always take things too far. Consider how NCST fans take advantage of community tragedies like violent crimes (the death of students and a professor last year) to point out how "unsafe" Chapel Hill is. I enjoy watching sports, but this is disgusting.

I propose dropping them from the "rivals" and playing anyone else. Wake, BC, Clemson, FSU, Louisville, I don't care. I get no enjoyment beating those sad sacks. Nothing feels better when you beat Duke, nothing worse than losing to state. It's not worth it."


Quote :
"We are moving toward playing more in-state teams with OOC games against Wake and WCU, and talk of trying to schedule ASU. There is very little chance an effort to remove the woofies from our schedule would gain any traction. I'd be happy to have them removed, especially if it meant playing FSU and Clempson more often."


Quote :
"

IMO, Carolina should fill its schedule with schools that UNC is on par with academically --- Cal -Berkeley, Notre Dame on this year's schedule is a step in this direction. Vandy, Northwestern, Rice, Michigan, Florida, Maryland, Texas . . . these are highly respected universities across-the-board, and they also would be competitive opponents -- in some cases, very challenging.

Along with UVA, dook, and WF, UNC could have an attractive schedule every year that would draw fans and give the program a needed psychological lift after these past years in which critics began likening to rogue schools like Baylor, SMU, Ole Miss.

In such a scenario, obviously, there wouldn't be any room for Cow College, because whatever else you can say about the school in Raleigh, it is a pale imitation, academically, of Virginia Tech.
"


1.so we are so obsessed with them yet they created that thread
2.they can't beat us on a regular basis but they want more shots at clemson and florida state
3.we aren't academically on par with them, i say thank God for that, so they want to pick up some other teams that won't get them compared to "rogue schools" as if the NCAA and the fake classes don't have anything to do with that

9/20/2017 7:25:48 AM

NCSUMEB
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^, with regards to the UNC-CH heavy BOG, we were nuked for violating the "spirit of the rules" even after the NCAA came out and confirmed it was a couple guys selling tickets and shoes. Any academic issues the UNC crowd harps on are really non issues (especially post 2011, but even then too) in that we didn't hand out fake degrees. If a guy didn't perform in the classroom and didn't graduate, well, that's a good thing as opposed to handing out fake degrees. At least that's the opinion of intelligent and ethical human beings.

Now fast forward 20 years later to the same old UNC-CH heavy BOG allowing the Ram's Club to hand pick their "independent" investigator whom they thought they would have on an ultra tight leash. While UNC managed to keep Roy and Dean's secrets locked up, everyone else was exposed. They didn't anticipate this. So they fired the head of the BOG for it. Think about that, the head of the NC BOG was fired for not containing the "independent" investigator over an athletic issue.

9/20/2017 10:45:55 AM

dmspack
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fuck em

9/20/2017 10:52:01 AM

TreeTwista10
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the 2nd and 3rd quotes are basically replies to the 1st and 2nd

Quote :
"I'll never forget when Julius Randle eliminated Carolina and NCeSt made his finalists. That's when I said to myself that something is changing in recruiting. Not saying I predicted this and obviously he didn't go there, but we were all told it was because Roy holds back his players from a big pay day.

Come to think of it... that may have been correct."

Quote :
"Nicholastree said... (original post)

The Randle recruitment went down differently than you think. Roy had prioritized Randle for years and had developed a great relationship with him and his family. But the winds started blowing Calipari's way when the family came to see him as not only a great coach but someone that could get their son a great position on draft day after his freshman year. Roy made a last-ditch effort to win them over but soon after it became clear their mind was made up: Kentucky it was. So Roy basically said: "if you're not coming to UNC tell me know so I can move on." And they did. It was a parting of mutual respect: the family didn't want to string Roy along unnecessarily and Roy didn't want to waste time recruiting someone that had made up their mind to go elsewhere. It wasn't long after that when Randle posted his final 5 - and it didn't include UNC.

The take on the Randle recruitment is that finishing 2nd means the same thing as finishing 6th. I guarantee you that if some epic change occurred at Kentucky (like Calipari leaving) after Randle named his top 5 he would have quickly turned around and added UNC back to his list (and we would've had a MUCH better chance of landing him than NCSU)."


Quote :
"I appreciate the knowledge, but it still doesn't change what I think went down. Something kept NC State on that list. But it's hard to beat Cal and WWW at their own game.

And to your point, I remember how long Roy prioritized him and how much his mom idolized Roy. In the past he would get those guys with ease. It didn't feel right.

The thing with conspiracy theories is sometimes they don't deserve that label because the truth isn't even being hidden. Is there a small class of uber wealthy people that meet to discuss geopolitics and the world economy? Of course. You don't need Alex Jones to tell you that. And I don't need this investigation to know that the shoe companies have totally taken over recruiting since the OAD rule. It was going on before that, sure, but now it's not even hidden from the public.

Roy doesn't play that game, though. He was the best recruiter in the business through the last decade, but has been left behind because he doesn't play ball. We all know what "handler" means. Roy won't come out and tarnish a kid and his family for trying to make some money on the side, but it's quite clear why he removes himself from certain recruitments.

We should've been alerted to the changing tides of recruiting when John Wall (the end of the last decade, like I said above) was basically told by Roy that he can't come here. All I'm saying is Randle was when it really hit me that the tides had turned. Roy didn't lose his touch overnight. Handlers knew not to bother with him.
"

9/26/2017 10:50:57 PM

justinh524
Finley Fan #1
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Yeah, UNC doesn't cheat.

9/26/2017 11:01:30 PM

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