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 Message Boards » » Dave Doeren Credibility Watch Page 1 ... 109 110 111 112 [113] 114, Prev Next  
rwoody
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So in your opinion, app is a top 25 program

10/24/2019 6:18:24 PM

dmspack
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Quote :
"Doeren is arguably better than Tom O Brien due to being more consistent at beating average teams. "


While partially true, the part you’re missing is that Doeren’s teams have generally been better at football than TOBs teams.

Quote :
"Since we'll never be a top-25 program because it's too expensive "


We don’t spend like the big boys in CFB. That’s a fact. Our chances at sustained success would increase if we spent more money and dedicated more resources to football.

Quote :
" (App is ranked) "


App is ranked. Just like some of DD’s teams have been at times. But that doesn’t make them a top 25 program in college football year over year, which is clearly the distinction we’re making.

Quote :
"then we should keep him even though he has zero signature wins in half a decade"


Signature wins is very subjective. Beating the Heisman QB on national TV on a Thursday seems like a signature win to me. I’d also argue that in a more top heavy ACC, DDs chances for signature wins is reduced. That’s not a defense of DD. But the only chance for signature win in the regular season this year or last is Clemson. And I’m not firing DD for not beating the national champion.

Quote :
"
If that's the bar then I reckon Doeren should be here for a long time."


If a coach is ever any where near a hot seat this silly argument always comes up.

Person 1: maybe we shouldn’t fire the coach, he’s not so bad imo.
2: OH SO I GUESS WE SHOULD JUST NEVER STRIVE TO IMPROVE

No, that’s not the case. But we have to be realistic. This was a rebuilding year from the start. That’s not a revisionist history or a moving of the goal posts. Only like 10 programs in the nation never have a rebuild year. We aren’t so lucky. So let’s have this conversation next year if the O still is stuck in the mud and we show no signs of progress.

10/24/2019 7:48:42 PM

yrey
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^^ What I meant was they're top 25.

^ Clearly you have your opinion and I have mines which is fine. I still stand by my opinion that Doeren is an average coach. App State and Wake are better teams than us. I'll give him credit for a signature win if he beats a team that's ranked in the top 25.

10/24/2019 8:47:37 PM

rwoody
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But why did you mention that app was in the top 25 then? What does their success have to do with anything?

Quote :
"give him credit for a signature win if he beats a team that's ranked in the top 25."


Did it twice in 2017

[Edited on October 24, 2019 at 9:31 PM. Reason : E]

10/24/2019 9:27:46 PM

yrey
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Because they're a team in the state of North Carolina that plays in a lesser conference yet they will most likely be favored in the desert against us due to their ranking.

Quote :
"
Did it twice in 2017
"


But did those teams finish in the top-25?

Since you're a Doeren supporter what are your expectations of him in year 7? This year is meaningless to me since he can't figure out the starting QB at this point.

10/24/2019 10:44:46 PM

rwoody
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So if app state is ever ranked higher than State, the program is in shambles?

Quote :
"But did those teams finish in the top-25?"


I don't know but that's not the criteria you laid down, and I do know one team that finished in the top 25 that year: nc state

But yea so I guess your requirement is that we beat clemson pretty much. If we beat the other good Atlantic team, we'll be ranked instead of them bc the acc has no respect.

10/24/2019 10:59:34 PM

marko
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Quote :
" Our chances at sustained success would increase if we spent more money and dedicated more resources to football."


Holy cow f that

I’m sticking with the academics

10/24/2019 10:59:41 PM

yrey
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Quote :
"
So if app state is ever ranked higher than State, the program is in shambles?
"


Wild inference.

Quote :
"
I don't know but that's not the criteria you laid down, and I do know one team that finished in the top 25 that year: nc state
"


I judge a coach by their record and more importantly the opposition that they beat. A lot of teams look good earlier in the season, but their merit is revealed by the end. With that being said, that year was Doeren's best coaching job.

Quote :
"

But yea so I guess your requirement is that we beat clemson pretty much.
"


No, our best shot was back in '16 but Doeren decided to let Bambard kick a field goal.

My requirement is that we're a consistently top-25 ranked program. We don't have to beat Clemson for that, but
we have to consistently beat the lower and middle tier of the ACC which is something that State doesn't do consistently.

10/24/2019 11:30:15 PM

TreeTwista10
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Doeren has his issues, but aside from his terrible first season, he's done a better job than TOB.

Quote :
"My requirement is that we're a consistently top-25 ranked program"


have fun with that

Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Boise State, Oregon, Stanford, USC, Washington, Utah, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn

that's 22 teams that will probably be better than us most years. sure, it's not a perfect list, but it's programs with more success than ours. your goal is to be one of the last 3 in the top-25, which is going to fluctuate every year with personnel, attrition, etc.

[Edited on October 25, 2019 at 1:40 AM. Reason : for perspective]

10/25/2019 1:31:55 AM

whtmike2k
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Quote :
" My requirement is that we're a consistently top-25 ranked program"


Dare to dream. What in the history of our football program makes you think this is an attainable expectation?

10/25/2019 3:57:06 AM

dmspack
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Quote :
"Since you're a Doeren supporter what are your expectations of him in year 7"


My expectations for this season were to make a bowl, I was probably expecting 7-5 or so. 6-6 would be a disappointment given the weak ACC. Also, to to find a QB for the future and build the foundation for 2020 and 2021 to be much better seasons.

This is a rebuild year. It’s not necessarily fun and it doesn’t mean you can’t be disappointed.

So what were your expectations for this season?

10/25/2019 6:32:02 AM

Dynasty2004
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I think Leary is the future. I think we hire new OC this year too

10/25/2019 9:01:33 AM

TKE-Teg
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I was hoping for 8-4. I didn't think our QB struggles would be this bad.

10/25/2019 11:22:02 AM

TreeTwista10
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App lost to Georgia Southern last night, fyi, since they're the best team in the state and whatnot

11/1/2019 7:50:12 PM

dmspack
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I mean...them and Wake are the best two teams in the state. Even with a loss to Ga So that doesn’t really change that.

11/1/2019 7:53:08 PM

TreeTwista10
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record-wise I suppose. Who has App played other than UNC though.

11/1/2019 7:57:52 PM

dmspack
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By most metrics App is a superior team, even when accounting for their schedule.

App is 33 in SP+, highest NC team.

[Edited on November 1, 2019 at 9:03 PM. Reason : H]

11/1/2019 8:59:23 PM

TreeTwista10
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They're not a bad team, but their resume is average at best. They've played the 85th toughest schedule in the country.

11/1/2019 9:39:28 PM

dmspack
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Sure. I’m not saying App is a world beater. But their weak schedule (which SP+ adjusts for) doesn’t really mean they aren’t a good team.

Our resume sucks. We’ve beaten...Syracuse? Hell, Clemson and Alabama’s resumes aren’t impressive but we still know they’re great teams. I’m not debating resumes, I’m debating which teams are better.

[Edited on November 2, 2019 at 10:59 AM. Reason : A]

11/2/2019 10:58:27 AM

cptinsano
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Legalize heroin sales in Carter-Finley

11/2/2019 12:42:14 PM

packboozie
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We won't even be able to fire this guy if we go 4-8 this year and the next thanks to the 5 year extension.

Rebuilding, injuries, youth all combined today is just unacceptable. Amazing that BC and Wake gets 20,000 fans at their home games and constantly beats us.

11/2/2019 3:28:48 PM

dmspack
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They constantly beat us? DD is 3-4 vs BC and 3-4 vs WF. I’m not saying we should be content with that, but I just wanted to clarify that they don’t constantly beat us.

11/2/2019 3:38:40 PM

packboozie
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We have a losing record to everyone in the Atlantic but Syracuse. 3-4 against Wake and BC. Two schools that put very little into their football programs.

11/2/2019 3:42:50 PM

dmspack
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Again

Quote :
"I’m not saying we should be content with that, but I just wanted to clarify that they don’t constantly beat us."


We’re mediocre, that stat about a losing record shouldn’t be surprising. And again - we shouldn’t be content with it. But it shouldn’t be surprising.

11/2/2019 3:56:43 PM

yrey
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Quote :
" We have a losing record to everyone in the Atlantic but Syracuse. 3-4 against Wake and BC. Two schools that put very little into their football programs."


But... but... DD gave us two back to back 9 win seasons.

11/2/2019 4:27:46 PM

TreeTwista10
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TOB 2.0

11/2/2019 4:35:20 PM

yrey
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^ I'm still not convinced that Doeren is a better coach than Obrien. Obrien had bigger wins and an excellent bowl record. Doeren had a no win ACC season for crying out loud and lost to Duke, UNC WF, and ECU in one season.

11/2/2019 4:39:33 PM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"an excellent bowl record"


Doeren is 3-2 in bowl games, TOB was 2-2. So there's that.

[Edited on November 2, 2019 at 4:53 PM. Reason : . ]

11/2/2019 4:51:51 PM

justinh524
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"Two schools that put very little into their football programs."


Breaking news: we also put very little into our football program

11/2/2019 5:10:13 PM

packboozie
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Dave makes $3.25 million. Addazio $2.6 Million. Clawson $2.18 Million. I'd love to see the numbers showing we put less into football. Our budget is likely double either of them.

11/2/2019 5:15:10 PM

rwoody
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This was Friday so wake is tied now I guess but
Quote :
"Most wins in the ACC since 2017 season started:

Clemson-35
N.C. State-22
Wake Forest-21
Miami/VT-20
UVa./Duke-19
BC-18
Syracuse/Pitt-17
FSU-16
Louisville-15
GT-14
UNC-9"

11/2/2019 5:26:25 PM

dmspack
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I don’t think we put less money in, but the point is - let’s not act like we’re throwing around TAMU money. Our results aren’t out of line with what we put in.

Quote :
"But... but... DD gave us two back to back 9 win seasons"


Goes to show how mediocre and shitty this program and previous coaches have been. Back to back winning seasons in conference is basically unheard of at State and he did it. Miss me with the “but it’s a down ACC” BS. The ACC is always top heavy with one contender at the top and weak at the bottom. The ACC has never been a football powerhouse. MOC, Chuck, TOB never coached in a juggernaut conference either. And by the way, Wake is pretty good this year. On the whole, we should be better than them. But Wake is a pretty good team.

And when comparing TOB to DD, DD’s recruiting is better. We’ve had this discussion dozens of times

I’m not saying DD is the best we can do or that we should be content with mediocrity. It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize him. But I think perspective is important.

[Edited on November 2, 2019 at 5:39 PM. Reason : H]

11/2/2019 5:36:39 PM

natureboy
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Lost season this year. I am sure we will be back up to 9 wins in 2021 for Doeren to save his job.

11/2/2019 10:12:21 PM

TKE-Teg
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I'm losing any motivation to return back to Raleigh (early) on Thanksgiving weekend to attend the UNC game...

11/4/2019 9:18:30 AM

Dynasty2004
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throw all the monies at Urban.

11/4/2019 9:19:20 AM

MONGO
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I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but there's a ton of parallels to Fedora's run at UNC from 2015-2017 and DD from 2017-2019:
- 2 year run that brought both teams to heights previously not reached since late 90's/early 2000's
- Tons of NFL talent (along with record-setting QBs) leave for the NFL
- Injury issues + coordinator changes + QB shuffle leads to a down year

I'll be shocked if we let DD go after this year, even if we lose out (something SP+ gives a 10% of happening). Hell, I don't know if he will be fired if 2020 is a similar repeat performance - we don't have a Mack Brown waiting for us.

11/4/2019 11:05:41 AM

JP
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DD is safe, but I think we need at least some sort of assistant coach shakeup. Losing Drink & the OLine coach really has hurt, along with this year's injuries & under performing QBs. A new OC perhaps?

Maybe Arkansas gets fed up and fires Morris

[Edited on November 4, 2019 at 2:06 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2019 2:04:58 PM

dmspack
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I’m also guessing Ledford was probably the replacement OC for Drinkwitz until UL snatched him up.

Co-coordinator experiment doesn’t seem to be going well, but with so many injuries and a QB situation in flux, I’m not sure how much blame they deserve.

[Edited on November 4, 2019 at 2:19 PM. Reason : ^i think Morris is done at Arkansas after this year. They’re a disaster. ]

11/4/2019 2:18:57 PM

HCH
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Quote :
"I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but there's a ton of parallels to Fedora's run at UNC from 2015-2017 and DD from 2017-2019:"


I don't really feel like these are comparable situations. All of those points mentioned above happens at all schools as they cycle through good years and rebuilding years.

Fedora's success was derailed because after their ACC championship game, they made a conscious shift in the recruiting philosophy to try and get more national recruits instead of continuing to focus (and win) the NC recruiting battles. We need to continues sticking with what is bringing us relative success and build on that, which I think we are.

Personally, I think we have great young talent, especially on defense, and this year is going exactly as a rebuild should go. Hopefully we can find 2 more wins and make a bowl.

Quote :
"Co-coordinator experiment doesn’t seem to be going well"
Clemson has Co-coordinators. How's it going for them? There is plenty of criticism for game planning and play calling, but I don't think the fact that we have co-coordinators makes any difference in our bad offensive production.

11/4/2019 3:09:39 PM

dmspack
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^im not saying co-coordinators are always bad. Im well aware that we aren’t the first to ever do it. I’m saying, that it doesn’t seem to be working for us right now with the two guys we have. Maybe not all that surprising considering they are George McDonald who was demoted from the OC position at Cuse mid season and Des Kitchings who hasn’t been an OC.

I’m not against having co-coordinators. I’m just questioning the guys we have in that position now. But again, maybe it has more to do with injuries and QB play than the coaches. I’m not sure where the blame lies.

[Edited on November 4, 2019 at 4:13 PM. Reason : A]

11/4/2019 4:12:06 PM

packfootball
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-1 credibility point

11/9/2019 10:26:45 PM

TreeTwista10
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Outscoring Clemson in the 2nd half:

+1 credibility

11/9/2019 10:27:51 PM

tower
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Quote :
"So in your opinion, app is a top 25 program"


they can actually beat south carolina so its a better program than ours at least

11/10/2019 12:44:35 AM

rwoody
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The lyas news is in the other thread, but this has to go here because lofuckingl. Doeren is over it.
Quote :
"Doeren says Xavier Lyas spoke to him on Sunday before he entered the transfer portal.

"Some guys don't get the playing time they want. ... We've got enough defensive ends. We'll be good.""



Hmm OK quite an ellipsis by PP. Still quit blunt but not as bad:
Quote :
"“He came in and saw me on Sunday. I wish him luck. I’d rather talk about the guys that are here. Somebody put a great screenshot out today though that their girlfriend was in the portal. I thought that was pretty funny. It’s life. Some of these kids don’t play as much as they want, and that’s how it goes. As far as our depth, we’ll be fine. We’ve got enough defensive ends. We’ll be good.”"


[Edited on November 11, 2019 at 5:14 PM. Reason : E]

11/11/2019 5:11:38 PM

dmspack
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holy shit yeah, that's a hilarious ellipses there.

11/11/2019 5:35:28 PM

Kickstand
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Next year, it's put up or shut up, buddy.

An injury pass is warranted this year, but Leary will be experienced. Get it together.

11/16/2019 10:37:08 PM

dmspack
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Yeah I can’t disagree with that. Is Leary the guy or do we look for a grad transfer? We’ll have Ben Finley as a true frosh and Ty Evans as RS frosh

11/16/2019 10:42:26 PM

justinh524
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I hope that Evans kid is good. At least as good as Daniel Evans.

11/16/2019 11:06:25 PM

horosho
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This was always supposed to be a rebuilding year with the SRs we lost but it was botched because of an insanely unlucky combination of unforeseen consequences. Its typically expected to not fall off too much in a rebuilding year but with these circumstances, it was nearly impossible not to. No one could have seen this coming. Those unforeseen circumstances are listed here:

-Top 2 offensive players leave early for the NFL
-Offensive coordinator is poached
-Offensive line coach is poached
-secondary wiped out by injuries
-Incredibly unlucky amount of injuries in other positions
-all 3 QB turning out to be busts incapable of playing at this level

Maybe a great coach could overcome 2 or 3 of those things in a rebuilding year but I don't think anyone outside of Saban or Dabo could overcome that list. Theres also no way you can blame doeren for most of that list. You can blame him for the last one but the first 3 are actually because he was TOO successful for his own good.

Leary is not even an FCS level qb (MCkay is FCS level) and should not be allowed to play next year. He will never be serviceable. Just doesn't have what it takes. Next year will be another rebuilding year and it wouldn't be fair to say "put up or shut up" in a rebuilding year with a freshman QB. Hopefully Finley or Evans are capable.

11/16/2019 11:43:48 PM

TreeTwista10
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Even if he had led us to our second ever winless conference record this year, it wouldn't be on him. Neither was the first winless conference record season in school history, that was the residuals of TOB's tenure.

11/17/2019 12:13:16 AM

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